Re-implementation of Duo Que and 3.3.5b

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Originally Posted by lordenicon

So from what I understand they need Blackrock to stay on the outdated 3.3.5a patch because it makes it easier to port it's fixes to the other WoTLK realms.

The other WoTLK realms have something against 3.3.5b because it's not blizzlike.. (as if these realms have anything blizzlike about them).

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You've grossly misunderstood... 3.3.5b does not go against being "blizzlike" as it is not the patch itself. What, however, goes against being "blizzlike" is suggesting that they enforce 3.3.5b changes on a 3.3.5a patch as it would not be accurate to the proper patch. Adding to that it is inefficient to enforce this on a 3.3.5a patch since you are better off changing the client altogether, you'd still need to patch the client as you are aware. Finally, they are planning to do cross realm features, once development allows for it, so they need to keep patches streamlined for these interactions.

That said they can't simply just change patches so easily since this isn't simply a matter of PVP anymore, there are just as many changes to be done in PVE mind you. Since 3.3.5a clearly has had more development to both servers it is understandable that it would become the mainstream, I mean AT only released 3.3.5b around August 2014 but how long has that been in comparison to their 3.3.5a development? There is obviously more sunk cost put in 3.3.5a for both parties.

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Since AT is the the one providing the fixes, it's my opinion that all realms should be moved to 3.3.5b but changed as necessary as to not ruin the "blizzlike" realms.

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Therein lies the other misconception... AT isn't the only one providing the fixes otherwise it wouldn't be a merger. Resources are shared and that includes the additional staff gained etc. AT may have its contributions no doubt but that doesn't mean they handle the matter in complete isolation from the existing staff on Molten. This is where streamlining becomes important, precisely to avoid a demarcation between AT and Molten staff as they are now co-workers under one server (Warmane).

This should be the most important thing to remember this is not AT or Molten any longer but Warmane, so decisions are made under the banner of one identity and community.

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Originally Posted by DenebRove

Adding to that it is inefficient to enforce this on a 3.3.5a patch since you are better off changing the client altogether, you'd still need to patch the client as you are aware.

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Except you are totally wrong.

The patch can just be done server-side, and this was precisely how it was. You had the OPTION to install 3.3.5b to fix tooltips, but the changes were already implimented and you could still use a normal 3.3.5 client.

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Originally Posted by DenebRove

Finally, they are planning to do cross realm features, once development allows for it, so they need to keep patches streamlined for these interactions.

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Even though this is a good reason to keep things streamlined, 3.3.5b was extremely minimal in it's changes, and in my opinion cloning characters to Blackrock/Warmane or having crossrealm pvp would not be in conflict with important fixes and balances that came with the patch.

I understand the concept of being patient about integrating with the other servers, but for anyone who remembers how it was..... it was truly as if 3.3.5b was how the game should function. It was one of the most significant additions AT made.

http://forum.warmane.com/showthread.php?t=286149

That should be evidence enough that a number of players want things reverted back.

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Originally Posted by coffeymug

The patch can just be done server-side, and this was precisely how it was. You had the OPTION to install 3.3.5b to fix tooltips, but the changes were already implimented and you could still use a normal 3.3.5 client.

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Doesn't change the fact that to incorporate 3.3.5b isn't a matter of just putting its scripts but patching it, server side or client side. So you cannot just suggest, as you did earlier, of scripting 3.3.5b changes into 3.3.5a without proper adjustments made, it wouldn't be accepted otherwise.

In the same manner they cannot just apply fixes in a blanket manner unless the proper changes, client or server side, have been incorporated (and this means differences in script). Meaning it no longer becomes a blanket fix.

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Originally Posted by coffeymug

Even though this is a good reason to keep things streamlined, 3.3.5b was extremely minimal in it's changes

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Then this just contradicts the whole pushing for 3.3.5b if it were indeed so minimal but they aren't which is why there is merit in pushing for it based on your own posts.

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Originally Posted by coffeymug

http://forum.warmane.com/showthread.php?t=286149
That should be evidence enough that a number of players want things reverted back.

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It is hasty saying the thread represents community opinion when how many people actually posted there against the actual population playing the realm? It is a number but I don't think that counts close as majority.

At the end of the day I don't see much point discussing this further as it goes around in a circle. There is no doubt you can implement 3.3.5b but the pros and cons need to be weighed. Right now all I see is the subjective view that 3.3.5b is more balanced than 3.3.5a from a PVP standpoint, which we can consider a pro.

No problem, but the issue arises from the cons of doing such a move which affect the ability of the realm to benefit from a community stand point, e.g. development and events. Which you've yet to address. Any move to further differentiate the realm only serves to alienate it from the community, 3.3.5b changes dynamics in balance and not simply a difference in features or availability of gear as it stands right now (not saying these don't change balance but certainly at a different level from a class change).

A move to 3.3.5b would mean either isolating the realm further from the other two, or integrating the changes to both so as to keep development and resources uniform. In which case, if you want to have the other two realms accept 3.3.5b would mean acquiring community opinion on their side too, and not being inward looking.

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Originally Posted by DenebRove

No problem, but the issue arises from the cons of doing such a move which affect the ability of the realm to benefit from a community stand point, e.g. development and events. Which you've yet to address.

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Arena Tournament had to undergo MANY changes in order to incorporate into Molten.

Molten hasn't had to change at all.

There have been no improvements to Blackrock vis-à-vis Molten developers.

You are asking Arena Tournament players to take a lesser version of something just because it suits a community they were not originally part of.

Also, are you a coder or programmer? Are you making decisions for the server? If not, I am not going to take what you say as fact and instead what it is: opinion.

http://i.imgur.com/CJxrDj4.jpg

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Originally Posted by DenebRove

Finally, they are planning to do cross realm features, once development allows for it, so they need to keep patches streamlined for these interactions.

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Lol'd. We aint getting cross realm any time soon, they even said it on Live Q/A. Qoute "Cross realm is every private servers wet dream"

U wet boi?

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Originally Posted by Strassenjunge

Lol'd. We aint getting cross realm any time soon, they even said it on Live Q/A. Qoute "Cross realm is every private servers wet dream"

U wet boi?

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Are you able to read properly? I don't think I claimed it to be anytime soon, rather once development allows for it as there are obviously other projects in the work (most pressing being Warsong). I don't believe that necessarily denotes any time frame of "soon", but is nonetheless a consideration worth noting.

If you do want something more foreseeable you do have the tournaments in the works, which should be considerably easier to pull off than CLB. Which they have given a proper timeline via the Twitch QA.

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• Will Tournaments be available again? Lich King tournaments will be on the 23rd and 24th of May with Prize pools. 2 slots from Deathwing/Ragnaros and 4 from Blackrock.

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Originally Posted by coffeymug

Also, are you a coder or programmer? Are you making decisions for the server? If not, I am not going to take what you say as fact and instead what it is: opinion.

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No it is called reading posts of the staff and the community interactions because you aren't the only one, obviously, to ask about these matters or related requests (try the initial welcome thread). It doesn't take a genius to put two and two together or repeating what has been said elsewhere, they've been pretty upfront about wanting to better streamline and integrate.

However, if you aren't up to the task of browsing through the forums or the like you are always free to utilize the services of this Hisue:
http://forum.warmane.com/showthread....91#post2408001
Haven't used his services but hey no harm in recommending it I believe since he is from the AT side so I do believe you shouldn't be intimidated.

Tournaments wont be fun. I already know the winners.

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Originally Posted by DenebRove

I do believe you shouldn't be intimidated.

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I am very intimidated.

Once Hisue posts in this thread then I'll know what is what.

http://i.imgur.com/dGRR1bi.jpg?1

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Originally Posted by Strassenjunge

Lol'd. We aint getting cross realm any time soon, they even said it on Live Q/A. Qoute "Cross realm is every private servers wet dream"

U wet boi?

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Aye, that quote is correct. That won't stop us from working on it though. Maybe we can see it sometime in 2018. :D In all seriousness though, I know we all would love to see it much more before then.

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Originally Posted by coffeymug

Molten hasn't had to change at all.

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You're right. We didn't have to. But we have been changing. Most of it is on the staff end of things, which includes things like staff departmentalization, chain of command, and overall interaction between each of the branches of the staff. This isn't to say that we are forfeiting our name for the sake of this union. I know that many players native to AT are salty about the whole situation, but what I've said above is true.

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Originally Posted by coffeymug

There have been no improvements to Blackrock vis-à-vis Molten developers.

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Technically speaking, we lost most of our previous developers for various reasons and we hired new ones. While scripting-wise, we don't have much to offer in terms of actual content on Blackrock, since what AT already had to provide was very well done, we have helped with some improvements on the back-end (realm stability-wise).

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Originally Posted by coffeymug

You are asking Arena Tournament players to take a lesser version of something just because it suits a community they were not originally part of.

Also, are you a coder or programmer? Are you making decisions for the server? If not, I am not going to take what you say as fact and instead what it is: opinion.

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Yep, it's an opinion. I'm uncertain as to what the AT team's reasons were for reverting the patch, but I'll link them this thread so that they may better address your concerns than what I can. :)

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Originally Posted by Strassenjunge

Tournaments wont be fun. I already know the winners.

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This.
And can't wait for see the ****fest:,Wintraders,DDosers,Scripters and not even talking people witch abuse bugs in-game on the molten-realms.
It will be interesting they says...I can easly consider that out of the 8 teams in the tournament, 5 or 6 will be there for one of the reasons above.

There have been quite a few discussions going on regarding 3.3.5b on the forums and i can understand your concerns. It was removed during the merge because we wanted to have the "patch" which would have suited both communities.
I've worked on 3.3.5b myself so i have a biased point of view on it. I think it is a well made update but i'm not sure if that's what we want.
An issue that i see right now with it is the tournaments. During the tournaments we will have teams picked from across all of Warmane's realms and that might be a problem. Having players to prepare for the tournament on one environment and actually participate on another is troublesome.
However, i will see if i can bring up discussions regarding 3.3.5b within the Staff. I will keep you informed.

I can understand ppl who wants 3,3,5b back ( dem ppl from ratings that doesnt allow to peel the warrior properly), but bringing back duoque? Are you srs? If you can't achive rating in sq, then try harder or avoid playing it? Yes, you getting noobs in your team- everyone does, you getting "Jungs" - no one has insurance for this, its fair and correct to disable such stupid thing as DuoQue. I can write many reasons why its bad but it was done before - Duo Que had to be canceled, and it was done for several reasons. If you want to play with someone - play 3s, obv.

Also 3,3,5b if it ever gonna be added again, must be redesigned : for example, keeping all buffs and canceling debuffs, which will be perfect for all pat of community. But it showed itself: it wasnt succesfull decision at all: yes, you have noow maybe 10-20 ppl on forum who qq about bringing it back, but if you watch on the AT history, it didnt change a ****: Palawarr was same good as it was, LSP were dominating 3s EVEN MORE, online didnt increase.

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Originally Posted by Hisue

There have been quite a few discussions going on regarding 3.3.5b on the forums and i can understand your concerns. It was removed during the merge because we wanted to have the "patch" which would have suited both communities.
I've worked on 3.3.5b myself so i have a biased point of view on it. I think it is a well made update but i'm not sure if that's what we want.
An issue that i see right now with it is the tournaments. During the tournaments we will have teams picked from across all of Warmane's realms and that might be a problem. Having players to prepare for the tournament on one environment and actually participate on another is troublesome.
However, i will see if i can bring up discussions regarding 3.3.5b within the Staff. I will keep you informed.

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So basically what Deneb said, but with "We'll talk about it". o.o

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Originally Posted by coffeymug

I am very intimidated.

Once Hisue posts in this thread then I'll know what is what.

http://i.imgur.com/dGRR1bi.jpg?1

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Happy?

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Originally Posted by coffeymug

Also, are you a coder or programmer? Are you making decisions for the server? If not, I am not going to take what you say as fact and instead what it is: opinion.

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So since Deneb isn't a programmer, she can't state her opinions (which is actually what she collected from various staff posts on the same topic), she can't post here? You know, I see a lot of opinions myself, but present as if they were facts.

Spoiler: Show

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Originally Posted by coffeymug

Blackrock is fundamentally different.

All the "fixes" you are talking about won't matter if the gameplay itself is broken.

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Originally Posted by coffeymug

Except you are totally wrong.

The patch can just be done server-side, and this was precisely how it was. You had the OPTION to install 3.3.5b to fix tooltips, but the changes were already implimented and you could still use a normal 3.3.5 client.

Even though this is a good reason to keep things streamlined, 3.3.5b was extremely minimal in it's changes, and in my opinion cloning characters to Blackrock/Warmane or having crossrealm pvp would not be in conflict with important fixes and balances that came with the patch.

I understand the concept of being patient about integrating with the other servers, but for anyone who remembers how it was..... it was truly as if 3.3.5b was how the game should function. It was one of the most significant additions AT made.

http://forum.warmane.com/showthread.php?t=286149

That should be evidence enough that a number of players want things reverted back.

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Originally Posted by coffeymug

Arena Tournament had to undergo MANY changes in order to incorporate into Molten.

Molten hasn't had to change at all.

There have been no improvements to Blackrock vis-à-vis Molten developers.

You are asking Arena Tournament players to take a lesser version of something just because it suits a community they were not originally part of.

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Originally Posted by Sapphire

Technically speaking, we lost most of our previous developers for various reasons and we hired new ones. While scripting-wise, we don't have much to offer in terms of actual content on Blackrock, since what AT already had to provide was very well done, we have helped with some improvements on the back-end (realm stability-wise).

Yep, it's an opinion. I'm uncertain as to what the AT team's reasons were for reverting the patch, but I'll link them this thread so that they may better address your concerns than what I can. :)

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Originally Posted by Hisue

I've worked on 3.3.5b myself so i have a biased point of view on it. I think it is a well made update but i'm not sure if that's what we want.

An issue that i see right now with it is the tournaments. During the tournaments we will have teams picked from across all of Warmane's realms and that might be a problem. Having players to prepare for the tournament on one environment and actually participate on another is troublesome.
However, i will see if i can bring up discussions regarding 3.3.5b within the Staff. I will keep you informed.

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Thank you both for answering my questions. I appreciate the detailed response.

Duo queue is only acceptable if BOTH teams are duo queues.

How is a duo queue + 1 going vs 3 solo's fair at all?