Hopeless State of PvP on Icecrown

Dear Warmane, we are all aware how you strive to foster an enjoyable and blizzlike wow experience. But has any of your staff members ever gotten into a random battleground or, even more so, a 2v2 arena on your far most popular realm, Icecrown? There is even no need to do that, since to any rational wow enthusiast, a quick glance at the 2v2 ladder tells the whole sad story.

Only 1 exclusive composition can be seen populating the top of the 2s ladder, and such saturation indicates a big problem and deters any serious pvp-er or wow enthusiast from competing or even playing on your realm. Shadowmourned warriors are everywhere, and the game is not worth playing knowing all other classes are just ragdolls put there so warriors have something to hit. The disbalance is too high.

The reason I have decided to send this post is because I was a relatively casual wow pvp-er whose been playing in arenas for about 1 year now and have never gotten beyond 1900 with other classes until i got my hands on a Shadowmourne-equipped warriror. Last season I hit 2750 in a matter of days, most of which were spent playing against only 1 comp: guess which one.

My point is, high rated 2v2 arena on Icecrown is nothing more than warr-pala vs warr-pala. Since no other classes can even compete. And no one wants to play arena with only 1 viable comp. Battlegrounds support my point. Shadowmourne was designed to be possessed by only 1 person per realm for a reason. Giving it to every warrior breaks the game beyond repair, and gives no reason for serious players to even play because they will always feel inferior.

Your servers are getting very low reviews by third parties for the same pay-to-win reason, when the problem can be quite easily fixed.

Lordaeron has the same problems, with the differnce that we don't have a pay to win shop and buffed raids so that only very few guilds can actually compete gearwise in any form of pvp with icecrown players. I have 2.3k arena exp (destro warlock) and stuggle to get to 1500 as lordaeron horde player in 2v2, it's a bit of a joke tbh

Backpedalers walking around with shadowmourne are not a problem at all, I have been beating shadowmourne warriors on 2vs2 with furious gear. The problem is something else entirely and way more complex; But can be easily summed up in one word: Scripts.

This is a pretty interesting topic and is, in my opinion, the big elephant in the room on Icecrown. Just to better explain my understanding on the subject, I'd like to state that I was 2300 rated on Warr, Hpala and Disc Priest back when AT was a thing, and as such i've played a lot of games as both a warr, and as a class that handles Warr badly (Disc).

Warr Pala was always a cancerous top tier composition even back when 3.3.5b was a thing and when gear was capped at 264. The arguement that shadowmourne isn't a problem in arena just because the majority of people using it suck at the game isn't an arguement I'm fond of, as balance in PvP isn't meant to be based on low tier players, especially when the class involved has one of the lowest skill floor in the game.

There's no denying that the current 284 meta we're in heavily favors Warriors to the point of killing diversity in arena, especially the 2v2 bracket. However, I'm unsure how exactly we could fix this problem for arenas/bgs while staying "blizzlike", as either the Warrior class would need nerfs, or gear allowed in arenas would need a lower cap.

But one thing I'm pretty positive on, this problem is without a doubt affecting the quality of the PvP on this server and killing the motivation of players to try and play other classes or play new comps.

Getting rid of shadowmourne wouldn't be that big of a difference. The reason why warr+hpala is good is because of mortal strike, their high survivability and mobility. The evidence for this is if you look at the rankings, there are several blackrock warrs there with no SM.

Agreed. Although, out of the two, the lesser evil in my opinion is the Hpala, as Hpala is more of an enabler that anything.

Arms Warr is a class that has everything a melee class could ever want, with a reliable heal reduction, an interrupt, Overpower proccing UA on casts, 3 gapclosers if you count intervene. It's a class that does too much on it's own if enabled to do what it wants to do, and that's exactly why Hpala's synergy with the class is so strong, as Warr doesn't need a Rsham purge/wind shear, or a Disc's damage to kill a target, it just needs to stay mobile and be high enough hp to stay on the offensive.

But you're definitely right that just removing Shadowmourne would most likely not be enough to get rid of the comp's "OP" status, as just like I said, even when 3.3.5b was a thing and gear was capped, the comp was one of the most powerful out there.

Skill is all you need to beat a certain match up.
Rank 1 in 3s was taken by a hunter/feral druid years ago in a ocean of LSP / War combs.
Keep improving yourself, don't focus on others.

Firstly, I'd like to adresse this by saying that softcounter and HARDcounters do exist in arena, with some matchups being as bad as 8-2 at times. "Skill" can only do so much, as you'd need to massively outskill hardcounters to win a match off them.

Second, "keep improving yourself" isn't really a remark you'd say to a veteran and skilled player who has not only clearly seen the up and down of this expansion in term of high level PvP.

Lastly, whether rank 1 was taken by a different comp than Warr in 3s is irrelevant, as 3s is a completely different bracket than 2s, with problems of it's own. The fact 70% of the 2v2 ladder is dominated by Warr/Hpala is a clear sign of the comp's dominant nature in that bracket. Hell, even in 3s Warrior is STILL a very, absurdly powerful class.

Anyone who isn't biased and has played at high level will admit that Warrior is an overtuned class.

I would suggest to remove Shadowmourne from the game, giving back 150 coins to both people who bought it and farmed it. They could then buy the next bis weapon with 23 coins and have a lot of coins to spend on other classes.
This however may be against the profit of warmane but not sure.

This plus a solution for nerfing the human racial which is discussed in other topics, would benefit the pvp situation for sure and bring way more diversity of classes and races.

The problem of the Warr class runs much deeper than just Shadowmourne though. Removing Shadowmourne isn't a viable option, as the realm does need to be as Blizzlike as possible. Until the rule of "Blizzlike" server gets changed, if that ever happens, I'm afraid there's probably little to no way the balance in PvP can be fixed.

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Originally Posted by Drunkuser

I would suggest to remove Shadowmourne from the game, giving back 150 coins to both people who bought it and farmed it. They could then buy the next bis weapon with 23 coins and have a lot of coins to spend on other classes.
This however may be against the profit of warmane but not sure.

This plus a solution for nerfing the human racial which is discussed in other topics, would benefit the pvp situation for sure and bring way more diversity of classes and races.

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Well not everyone paid 150 for SM. Lots of people got SM at a much reduced price after moltdown. Also removing SM would hurt DKS and Pallies a lot more than it'd hurt wars. As I said the war doesn't need it as mortal strike gives them a 50% healing reduction.

Like some users have pointed out, Shadowmourne is not the problem. The problem is that some classes are much more powerful than others. You would need to nerf certain classes. For instance the Holy Paladins absurdly high healing combined with the broken Sacred Cleansing and Sacred Shield.

However Warmane has already stated that they will not do this and while I personally would like to see spells like Sacred Cleansing or Sacred Shield or AMS and Gargoyle nerfed, it is hard to draw a line for what class/spec/spell that deserves a nerf as soon as you leave the arena.

Id say the problem are hpalas, not warriors.

Mind elaborating your opinion on this? I'd personally highly disagree with that statement.

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Originally Posted by chasmire

Firstly, I'd like to adresse this by saying that softcounter and HARDcounters do exist in arena, with some matchups being as bad as 8-2 at times. "Skill" can only do so much, as you'd need to massively outskill hardcounters to win a match off them.

Second, "keep improving yourself" isn't really a remark you'd say to a veteran and skilled player who has not only clearly seen the up and down of this expansion in term of high level PvP.

Lastly, whether rank 1 was taken by a different comp than Warr in 3s is irrelevant, as 3s is a completely different bracket than 2s, with problems of it's own. The fact 70% of the 2v2 ladder is dominated by Warr/Hpala is a clear sign of the comp's dominant nature in that bracket. Hell, even in 3s Warrior is STILL a very, absurdly powerful class.

Anyone who isn't biased and has played at high level will admit that Warrior is an overtuned class.

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And no where did I disagree with the statement that OP made. Yes, warrior and hpala is the easiest comb in 2s bracket. But who do you want to be? A rand om war/pala with 3k rating in 2s that no one would be impressed by? Or a unique & barely seen comb managing to gain a respectable high rating?
And while I'm making this point, 2s has never been a bracket that anyone who is good is actually focusing on. I haven't paid attention to the last couple of seasons in the 3s bracket but I'm pretty confident I can guess what comb got rank 1 and that just again proves my point, the players that got rank 1 with unique combs are not playing anymore, the skill of the next generation is nowhere near the previous years top performers.