is RET rly bad for pve and pvp ?

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June 25, 2017
Novat93

The best raid buffer, delivering 3% crit on a single target, a blessing and they can keep up judgement of light and judgement of wisdom cast by two other paladins on a target. They are somewhat less powerful compared to some other classes in 10 mans, but who cares about 10 mans in tbc?

The DPS is sub-par, and while allot of people comment that wind fury is required to deal decent damage. The windfury spot is better given to a different melee dps, particularly so if you have a protection paladin in your raid so you can lend away some bonus holy damage. Even so, few guilds have 25 people with 100% attendance, so the few times you're put in the melee group with all the related group buffs such as battle shout and wind fury, you should be able to get into top 10 if your gear is on par with that of your guild. Play style is a bit bland, and the way you pick and choose your gear upgrades have few if any intricacies, just pick up the slowest weapon you can find and auto attack. There is the topic of seal twisting, which is a relatively advanced concept for the time and the mechanic is a bit convoluted. I suggest you hit up the thread regarding seal twisting.

For pvp, you perform quite well in battlegrounds. Retribution paladins can cause problems for practically all classes, with cleanse, bubbles, blessing of freedom, a stun and an incapacitate effect. You're well suited when your enemy don't communicate via voice. In arenas however, while Retribution paladins are playable. The skill requirement of you, and your partner(s) is unreasonably high compared to most other speccs in the game in order to reach the really high ranks. You will not struggle too much if you're a skilled player hitting the rating requirement for arena weapons, but you will seriously struggle acquiring the most recent arena shoulder piece.

For someone that enjoys Battlegrounds, playing as Retri paladin in pvp back in the day was fun. But the gear acquisition was nothing but a chore.

Edit: Rightfully so, guilds will not allow more than 1 retribution paladin in the raid at any one time. I don't know how popular Ret is atm, but i would not bother trying to join a guild with a raiding Retribution paladin.
July 2, 2017
Skoobydoo

http://imgur.com/Zocf0j5

this is on magtheridon.i will say rets are perfectly fine for PVE.

in dungeon boss fights when you just burst they do around 1500-1700 dps.
July 9, 2017
Psojed

When talking about ret paladins, you should always make a difference between Seal of Blood and Seal of Command. Simply because SoComm is the seal with lower dps, and that's what most people talk about when they say something like "paladin dps is sub-par". It's quite obvious - if a Mage used Scorch instead of Fireball, his damage would also be lower. That's the same thing with SoB vs. SoComm.

Seal of Blood paladins are very viable as DPS.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Novat93

The DPS is sub-par, and while allot of people comment that wind fury is required to deal decent damage. The windfury spot is better given to a different melee dps, particularly so if you have a protection paladin in your raid so you can lend away some bonus holy damage.

This is just a load of nonsense, since putting a Ret into your Tank grp is a waste of damage. Not Ret's damage, but the other 4 DPS in the paladin's group, because Improved Sanctity Aura increases all damage output by 2% for the whole party, and not just Holy damage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Novat93

Even so, few guilds have 25 people with 100% attendance, so the few times you're put in the melee group with all the related group buffs such as battle shout and wind fury, you should be able to get into top 10 if your gear is on par with that of your guild.

This is true even with Seal of Command. Back during TBC, Cromfel was one of the people who wasn't afraid to check things out. You can watch some bosskill movies in this list https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2cB...louEfZeQuUr7HU

With Seal of Blood, you should be able to get even into the top positions.
July 10, 2017
Talrain

I would really be curious to see the target dummy DPS difference in a SOB pally vs a SOC human pally who gets sword/mace bonus -- and also vs a human itemized with less hit in gear (grouped with a draenei).
July 11, 2017
Psojed

You didn't specify the items for the dps comparison, therefore SoB > SoComm.

Sword/mace bonus equals +-20 expertise rating (or 5 expertise). You can equalize other races by picking up a Shapeshifter's Signet. Humans should also take the ring.
Draenei in group adds +1% hit chance, which equals +-16 hit rating, but this requires that the draenei stays in your range at all times. Consider the fact that you might lose the hit if the draenei goes too far (a healer) or dies.
July 11, 2017
Avriz

Seal of Blood is immensely superior to Seal of Command, and for that reason you can see DPS discrepancy be as high as ~30%, given the higher damage, better scaling from gear, and most importantly the large amount of restored mana SoB provides with Spiritual Attunement.

As it stands, Ret is not only a -viable- DPS, but on Single Target fights should be outperforming all other melee DPS.

http://i.imgur.com/lhXQkSo.png

For that magtheridon kill we used the 1-2-2 channeler strategy, I had no flasks and didn't use any haste potions. Normally we can expect to do 1400-1500 DPS on that encounter with proper consumables and raid composition, and around 1300-1400 DPS on Gruuls, with even decent positioning. Through Kara you should average around ~1.4-1.7k DPS depending on how quickly your party downs the boss, with a low of 1.1k on Prince given the lack of Seal of Blood for 70% of the fight.

Ret is a fantastic melee dps spec, that brings a lot to the raid, but has a terribly negative stigma attached to it. You WILL need to use super mana pots to sustain your rotation and know when you can afford to pop a haste potion and the like.

-Addendum: If you don't have an enhancement shaman, don't play a ret paladin. Lack of windfury makes you absolute dog****.
July 12, 2017
Psojed

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avriz

With T4-level full epic gear, Normally we can expect to do 1400-1500 DPS on that encounter with proper consumables and raid composition, and around 1300-1400 DPS on Gruuls, with even decent positioning. Through Kara you should average around ~1.4-1.7k DPS depending on how quickly your party downs the boss, with a low of 1.1k on Prince given the lack of Seal of Blood for 70% of the fight.

There I fixed it.
July 13, 2017
taralej

Are you Alliance?

Yes: Don't play Ret PvE. You'll be an auto-attack bot, spamming Crusader Strike on cooldown and relying on Seal of Command procs to be able to do 50% of what a warlock can do.
No: You may play it, although you still won't be top DPS. Make sure to have an Enh in your group, though.

You want to play Ret PvP?
Sure, it's pretty fun in BGs and duels. Don't expect to go over 2k rating in arenas, though. Why? Mana Burn.
July 26, 2017
SegaRally

To be fair you have to take account of cheesing on Magtheridon, Ret Paladins spamming dark runes and standing in the fire to take damage so they can get mana from being healed. Also have to take into account that Recount isn't an accurate measure of "DPS", like the example above people doing half the damage but only 300 or so dps below the top guy, seems totally accurate.

But sure Blood Elf Ret paladins can do good single target damage if they are well geared/optimised and in a good group setup.
July 26, 2017
Psojed

No cheesing is required, using mana potions is good enough. If you have someone standing in the fire to "get mana", consider kicking him from the raid. JoW on the boss helps a lot too.

Also, all the screenshots posted above show the "Damage Done" stats.
July 27, 2017
SegaRally

Quote:

Originally Posted by Psojed

No cheesing is required, using mana potions is good enough. If you have someone standing in the fire to "get mana", consider kicking him from the raid. JoW on the boss helps a lot too..

Maybe it's a bit silly but when you're demolishing farm content it just doesnt matter and the healers don't care, sometimes they just want something to do. I've been asked in the past to stand in fire on purpose to allow the healers to rank better, most parsing rankings in every expansion are littered with people doing things (sometimes at the expense of others) for personal DPS gain or even full raid strategies built around cheesing for numbers/speed kills, the majority of the best players in the world have been guilty of this at some point or partake in it on a regular basis.

There is a line you don't cross, when on progress or when it comes at a heavy cost or risk, but honestly this just isn't one of those situations and when someone posts a good damage parse (Warrior/Paladin) on Maggy I'm going to assume this is taking place unless proven otherwise, and I won't hold it against them either way.

Quote:

Also, all the screenshots posted above show the "Damage Done" stats.

You've essencially answered a question I didn't ask by pointing out something I already used for the very basis of the point I was making. If you had read the post you would be aware of that so I'm gonna assume you just didn't read the post.
July 27, 2017
taralej

Honestly, I'd only consider Maiden a DPS test for melees. Everything else can be cheesed or has downtime. Attumen can be cleaved, Curator is just lol, Aran can be cleaved, Prince requires moving out, NB is scary for MDPS cuz Fear + Cleave, Gruul has a knockback and stun... You get my idea.

But then again Maiden is cheese for warriors too, because they get free rage from Holy Ground.
July 27, 2017
Psojed

Quote:

Originally Posted by SegaRally

Maybe it's a bit silly but when you're demolishing farm content it just doesnt matter and the healers don't care, sometimes they just want something to do. I've been asked in the past to stand in fire on purpose to allow the healers to rank better, most parsing rankings in every expansion are littered with people doing things (sometimes at the expense of others) for personal DPS gain or even full raid strategies built around cheesing for numbers/speed kills, the majority of the best players in the world have been guilty of this at some point or partake in it on a regular basis.

Well, if your healer asks you to take damage, be my guest. I was thinking more of a situation where the paladin doesn't bring mana potions and then deliberately stands in the damaging spells to compensate. And of course, lots of ppl will try to cheese their way up to "show the numbers".

I'm doing Magtheridon without standing in the fire, not using haste potions, so usually I take 2-3 super mana pots.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SegaRally

You've essencially answered a question I didn't ask by pointing out something I already used for the very basis of the point I was making. If you had read the post you would be aware of that so I'm gonna assume you just didn't read the post.

Nope. I only pointed out the only reliable info you get from the screenshots. You simply assumed that the DPS shown in the Recount screenshots is not accurate, yet you have no basis for that statement. For example, Recount stops counting your DPS the moment you die, an easy way to score high DPS, yet low damage done.
July 27, 2017
taralej

Quote:

Originally Posted by Psojed

Nope. I only pointed out the only reliable info you get from the screenshots. You simply assumed that the DPS shown in the Recount screenshots is not accurate, yet you have no basis for that statement. For example, Recount stops counting your DPS the moment you die, an easy way to score high DPS, yet low damage done.

1. Nuke the boss with all cooldown.
2. Pull aggro and die.
3. Link DPS.
4. ???
5. Profit.

As they say, a dead DPS is a bad DPS. Usually, I'm not the first on the DPS meter, but I do my best to survive and therefore almost always score among the top on the damage meter at the time the boss dies. And that's the most important thing, in the end.
July 27, 2017
SegaRally

Quote:

Originally Posted by Psojed

Well, if your healer asks you to take damage, be my guest. I was thinking more of a situation where the paladin doesn't bring mana potions and then deliberately stands in the damaging spells to compensate. And of course, lots of ppl will try to cheese their way up to "show the numbers".

I'm doing Magtheridon without standing in the fire, not using haste potions, so usually I take 2-3 super mana pots.

Nope. I only pointed out the only reliable info you get from the screenshots. You simply assumed that the DPS shown in the Recount screenshots is not accurate, yet you have no basis for that statement. For example, Recount stops counting your DPS the moment you die, an easy way to score high DPS, yet low damage done.

How do I not have a basis for that argument. DPS = damage/time, if player A has done 100 damage in 10 seconds (10dps) and player B has done 50 damage in 10 seconds (5 dps) then if the meter shows player B at 8 dps it's pretty damn well wrong. Recount is not a good accurate measure of dps because it only counts dps while the the player is actively dealing damage, so for example it stops counting warlock dps between casts, it stops counting your dps when you run between targets, but it doesn't stop counting your dps if you have dots on the target.

That means that non dot classes will show more dps than dot classes, it will also mean that Shadowbolt Warlocks will show much higher dps than a Shadow Priest even if they both had the same effective uptime and same damage... So there is your basis, how it wasn't blatently obvious to you I'm not entirely sure, but I mentioned the damage in the very post you replied to and you replied by telling me the damage is shown as if I wasn't aware of that when I was discussing that very thing?

Quote:

Originally Posted by taralej

Honestly, I'd only consider Maiden a DPS test for melees. Everything else can be cheesed or has downtime. Attumen can be cleaved, Curator is just lol, Aran can be cleaved, Prince requires moving out, NB is scary for MDPS cuz Fear + Cleave, Gruul has a knockback and stun... You get my idea.

But then again Maiden is cheese for warriors too, because they get free rage from Holy Ground.

Maiden isn't a good dps test, Warriors get free rage for the whole fight and the boss also does a silence, I don't know how bad that affects Paladins.

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