Feral Druid PvE DPS Guide [3.3.5a] - End Game!

This will be the first in the mini series about rotation, itemisation, talents and other things end game - best in slot - Icecrown Citadel and Ruby Sanctum content related for Melee classes (might add range also, but I am not as good on those as I am on melee).

New video without Ferocious Bite
(except the 2 I did with Berserk up that you should always do regardless of your skill level):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXagpirXlUk

New video with both openers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rSxjbk00Zo
Check the time stamps if you are interested in openers only and not interested in watching the whole thing.

Video on Feral Druid (Cat) rotation:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3ws053eOkc&t=0s

Armory of the character - http://armory.warmane.com/character/...ecrown/summary

Talents:
https://wotlk.evowow.com/?talent#0ZE...Vkbyczb:pmVVmz
https://wotlk.evowow.com/?talent#0Zx...Akbyczb:pmVVmz
https://wotlk.evowow.com/?talent#0Ze...AkbAczb:pmVVmz
The second talent link with Improved Mangle and Imp LotP is there in case you are new to the class and dont know how to maximise Fero Bite usage just yet.

Once I am done with all the videos on all melee specs I will try to update the "guide" and add a bis list, talent links, etc...
Until than, enjoy the videos as they come.

Best of luck!

For more Feral Druid (raid) point of view, and some awesome Affliction videos, check Xk's channel:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=see55zXLSz0

Reservation of the first comment for god knows what.

Hey, Gnimo. I was thinking about doing something similar in the past, because I thought that the information on some guides was too general or outdated, but then I decided to take a small break and leave it for another time. Seeing that you are making one of your own, I won't continue mine, since I want people to get their data from a well-known veteran player. That said, I have some questions, which I would like to ask you before you finish your guide:

1) Is this the best opener for a feral druid? Let me refer this thread very quickly:

http://forum.warmane.com/showthread.php?t=393606

When I was still unexperienced, my playstyle was similar to GaryOwlman's, but one year ago I read this thread and your response and I thought, that your suggestion was better. Did you change your opinion on this? If I were to use Berserk before TF, do I pull more damage thx to the trinket procs or there's another explanation for this play? I thought, that using TF as often as possible, in order to gain a lot of energy in the long run, was essential.

2) Also, should we really cast Ferocious Bites during Berserk and not only at the end of it? I thought, that it was ill-advised, cuz a FB consumes additional energy and offers no real payback for it.

https://wotlk.evowow.com/?spell=48577

Quote:

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Finishing move that causes damage per combo point and converts each extra point of energy (up to a maximum of 30 extra energy) into 9.4+AP/410 additional damage. Damage is increased by your attack power..

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My AP (while unbuffed) is 10722, which would result in 35.4 damage per energy or 1062 for the 30 consumed energy points. In your video, you gained 2 cIearcasting procs, which I guess made that play worth it, but what if a player doesn't get any in the right time? Wouldn't two shreds be better than a big FB? Let me show u:

Shred's damage is calculated like this:
Shred = (Autoattack Damage*2.25 + 666)*Naturalist*Mangle*SR*Rend and Tear
According to some sources, the cat’s AA damage is calculated by multiplying our AP by 1/14 and adding 55 (average pawn damage).

Spoiler: Show

https://www.wowhead.com/forums&topic=142010

So, if we add the numbers:
Shred = 5731 or 12608 when crit (double damage + the Predatory Instincts bonus)

FB is calculated like this:
FB 5CPs (Rend and Tear increases the crit chance by 24, so I’ll might as well concentrate only on the critical strike):
FB = (120+290*5+0.35*AP)*Feral Aggression*SR*Naturalist*2 (crit)*Predatory Instincts
FB = 19701

If we use this formula to calculate the bonus damage out of the extra consumed energy, we would get 3931.

So, let's compare the numbers. On the one hand we have a 5CP FB, that has consumed 30 additional energy, which deals 19701+ 3931= 23632 damage. On the other hand, we have 2 shreds, whose combined damage is 25216. So, my point is - if I were in Berserk, those abilities would have roughly the same cost. So wouldn't it be better to use 2 shreds instead of a big FB?

3) Btw, I am happy that you are going to share the tricks for feral dudus to force CCs - by spamming Faerie Fire, Nature's Grasp, Barkskin and use Gift of the Wild prematurely or during the boss's downtime. However, I have a question - I figured, it's also good to force a CC during combat. I think, that if I don't have enough energy to refresh Rip with 5 CPs, instead of waiting and losing bleed damage and falling behind my "rotation", I could shapeshift out of form, cast GotW on all 25 raid members, gain a CC proc, shapeshift back and continue my "rotation". It's a risky move, but I figured, that it's worth it, cuz it's better to sacrifice a bit of AA damage, but get Shred damage and 2 CPs. For that reason, I put 4 points in Furor. I haven't done that in Icecrown, but I do that in Frostmourne, where my crit is exactly 50% and I don't always have an optimal energy management due to not getting constant critical strikes. What do you think?

The main reason why Fero Bite is used is its 100% chance to crit on top of its huge damage, with Shred you dont know if it will crit or not.
But when bursting at start of the fight with Berserk, you should NOT use Fero Bite in the middle UNLESS you have **** ton of Clearcasting procs (like I did in the video), and hopefully get 1 for Fero Bite itself.
Spamming Shred is better, and Fero Bite should be done at the last second of Berserk buff if RNG is not good or average.

It doesnt matter if u use any of the two openers:
TF > Berserk > TF...
Berserk > TF > ...
Damage will be more or less the same, you will end up in more or less the same spot when it comes to duration on debuffs and buffs.
What I think is that TF > Berserk > TF is more noob friendly, I dont know why I get that feeling, but I do.

I initially planned to release the video with TF > Berserk > TF opener, but this one was good enough.
I even made a mistake in this video at the start, after Mangle I should have done Savage Roar before doing Berserk and I would have ended up at 98 energy cos of the GCD (friend told me that after he saw the video), mainly because I dont have any experience in this opener since I used the TF > Berserk > TF one all this time.
This was just a test and ended up being really solid overall dummy run.
Also, I noticed that with TF > Berserk > TF opener, you get a weird 2nd Berserk, unlike here in this video, but again, it might be just good RNG.

Overall it wont matter which way you open at the start.
The downside of TF > Berserk > TF is that you lose that TF buff because Berserk cancels it.
That damage wont be noticeable on a long run, so if TF > Berserk > TF puts you in a good spot, use it, if Berserk > TF puts u in a good spot, use it instead.
Practice both openers tho, and give them a 1 week time of practice, not couple of pulls or dummy runs, let it get in your blood, muscle memory and once you master it completely drop a judgement on it if it fits you or not.

I might add up another video with different opener once I am done with all the melee classes, since feral is for sure the most fun to play on a dummy. :D

As for the GMotW in middle of the combat, I would not suggest it if you are in melee range of the target.
If you are running away, moving (without auto attacking the target), stopping DPS, or w/e that wont stop the melee damage, sure, but otherwise its no good.
From what I remember, back in the days when CC was not procing as much and had an cooldown, we used to go Bear form in order to maximise damage and keep Mangle on the target constantly. This resulted in awesome dps boost, especially when Enrage was off cooldown.
However this made aggro an issue, so if the tank was not a beast, we didnt do it in raids, but with lower gear content, it might be good, I dont know.

I dont plan to answer or get in to any questions related the early stages of the game, gearing, etc, this miniseries will purely be rotation and itemisation and spec for End Game content.
In 90% of the cases, any rotation I post, spec, will be just as good for early stages of the game, with probably some minor tweeking (like not mindlessly spamming Heroic Strike on Fury Warrior and keeping a watchful eye on Rage).
These things you can realise yourself by just putting in some time in practice on a dummy.

Those were some nice points, Gnimo. Can't wait for your guide. Let me share you what I think on some of them:

1) I feel like Berserk > TF is better in rdfs, cuz the bosses melt down quickly. At least, that was my impression in the past. Rn I'm so used to the TF>Bs>TF opener, that I don't feel comfortable, when I change it.

2) Tbh, I also thought, that those two openers offered an equal damage output and it only depends on the boss encounter if one would perform better than the other. Was just curious to see why you didn't show your typical opener in the video, but now I understood. :)

3) Regarding the GotW trick - I am aware of all risks and downsides of this play, that's why I didn't use it on Icecrown. With the high crit rating, the 10% haste and the constant FFF, Barkskin and NG spam, I was rarely in a bad position, where I didn't have enough energy to do my "rotation" properly. However, I was curious, I wanted to experiment and see what else I could do in fights. That's why I considered doing this trick EVEN in melee range - cuz imho the positives (dealing Shred damage and gaining CPs) would outweigh the negatives (losing some AA damage and/or getting CCs before or after shapeshifting). If I were to stay in cat form and continue AA-ing, each hit would have a 6% success to proc CC. If I am at risk in falling behind my rotation and TF is on CD, it would be better to shapeshift out and cast GotW on all 25 raid members (more, if we count the pets) and get the secure CC proc. Since each mark has a 6% chance to proc CC successfully, the chances for all of those 25 targets not to bring me any CC is 21% (0.94^25). So, the chances for success are 79%, which is way more promissing than staying in cat form and hoping for the 6%-er to be a successful one. That's how I think, that's how I look at RNG, since we feral druids are soooo dependent on those procs. Like I've said, I didn't do that on Icecrown, because I didn't have the need for it. I was rarely in a bad situation, but I figured I could use this little trick, if I were at risk to lose Rip and SR after a poorly timed FB. That was the initial thought. On Frostmourne, the reasoning is different. I don't always get 2 CPs, so I hapily use the aforementioned trick in raids.

But thx for sharing your opinion. I wanted to hear out what you think about it. Btw, I read about the bear trick. It must have sounded very exciting to perform.

Added a video with both openers, as said in the main post, check the time stamps to skip the part you dont want to watch.

For Instant Berserk opener, you want to Fero Bite the last sec of STS proc.
If you are lucky with Clearcasting procs DURING the Shred spam, when at 50+ energy, you can Fero Bite 2 times.

If you have a Clearcasting proc at the start, before the pull, you still want to go with Instant Berserk. Main reason for this is again, STS proc and Fero Bite at last sec of it.
If you want to try and be optimal with the energy, you will end up with 15sec left on Berserk and 12sec left on STS resulting in 1sec left on STS and 4sec left on Berserk. Here you want to Fero Bite no matter what, so you will be on 0 energy and 3sec left on Berserk.
That is why you instantly Berserk, use that first CC proc on Mangle, hope another or maybe two CC procs happen during the Shred spam, and you do 2 Fero Bites.



Added another video without doing Ferocious Bite.
It seems I am a bad Ferocious Bite player and I should stick with spamming Shred from the comparison when it comes to damage done after 5min. :D

you shred to open. saw it on youtube by a pro player named awbee. you are wrong. also 4 cp rip is better than 5 and you should always 5cp savage to start.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Freddybaby

you shred to open. saw it on youtube by a pro player named awbee. you are wrong. also 4 cp rip is better than 5 and you should always 5cp savage to start.

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If there is an arms warrior or a bear tank (or a second feral cat) in the raid and they put Trauma/Mangle immediately, then the other best ability to use at start is Rake. Let's compare:

Shred = (Autoattack Damage*2.25 + 666)*Naturalist
According to some sources, the cat’s AA damage is calculated by multiplying our AP by 1/14 and adding 55 (average pawn damage). My AP on my feral cat on Icecrown is 10722. So, if we add the numbers:
Shred w/o Mangle/Trauma = 2763 or 6080 when it's a crit (double damage + the Predatory Instincts bonus).
Shred with Mangle/Trauma = 3592 or 7902 when it's a crit (double damage + the Predatory Instincts bonus).

For Rake we have the following formula:
Rake = (AP/100+176+3*358+AP*0.18)*Savage Fury*Naturalist
Rake w/o Mangle/Trauma = 4339 or up to 9545 if everything is a crit (thanks to the t10 bonus)
Rake with Mangle/Trauma = 5641 or up to 12410 if everything is a crit (thanks to the t10 bonus)

As you can see, the damage from Rake is more than Shred AND it also increases the future damage of our shreds thanks to the Rend and Tear talent. But you always want to begin with Mangle, in order to increase the damage of your future bleeds and shreds by 30%. Even if you are somehow comvinced, that starting with Shred is better, Mangle costs 40 or 38/36/34 energy (if you put talent points in Improved Mangle), so you don't spare that much energy when you begin with Shred.

Also, pardon my lack of knowledge, but I think Mangle also increases the bleed damage of other classes. So beginning with something other than Trauma or Mangle means less raid damage at start as well.

As for Rip, I think it's obvious that 5CPs Rip is better than 4CPs:

4 points: (36+93*4+0.04*AP)*11(we have 11 ticks with glyph of shred and rip)*SR*Mangle*Naturalist
5 points: (36+93*5+0.05*AP)*11(we have 11 ticks with glyph of shred and rip)*SR*Mangle*Naturalist

There are probably some exceptions, when you would want to cast Rip with 4CPs and squeeze in a FB, but imho that depends on the encounter and the mechanic.

Sources:
https://www.wowhead.com/forums&topic=142010
https://wotlk.evowow.com/?spell=48566
https://wotlk.evowow.com/spell=48574#see-also
https://wotlk.evowow.com/spell=48572?forums#see-also
https://wotlk.evowow.com/?spell=49800

[edit] I forgot to mention, that Shred's damage gets reduced by the boss's armour, while bleed damage stays the same.

Quote:

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Bleeds are damage over time debuffs that deal physical damage. As a physical debuff, bleeds generally cannot be removed until the debuff expires, although there are a few means of doing so. In addition, bleed effects cannot be resisted and ignore armor. Warriors, rogues, druids and marksmanship hunters all have access to bleed debuffs. There are also melee weapons that give a chance to apply bleed effect on targets.

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https://wow.gamepedia.com/Bleed

I think I mentioned tons of reasons why opening with Shred is bad.

When will you make a full guide?

You have a good guide that was made not long ago...
http://forum.warmane.com/showthread.php?t=431156
I sadly dont have the time to finish what I started, if I ever do make it, I will make a full guide
(probably wont differ a lot from the one Ayizan made to be honest).

Couple of extra videos tho, that I didnt add to the guide:
Me: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V49c65j4IKM (full addon list in the description)
Xk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POXijGQX9ak

You can go trough Xk's channel for some awesome Feral and Affli lock videos in raids also. :D