Will I have a raid spot if I roll fury or do I have to go arms?
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Will I have a raid spot if I roll fury or do I have to go arms?
Easily, they top DPS charts, may require some learning but it's a fun class/spec.
They are awesome dps, go for it, although you might have to roll BS for the weapons if you want a raiding spot in a competitive guild.
Leveling as fury by 60-70 is a steam roll.
Just make sure you become really good friends with a Enhancement Shaman. You'll want that Windfury Totem and it's a group-wide only buff.
damn boys, u say like its retail not a private server, check enh shammy on retail was total broken in pve make r low dps, on warmane cata realm is faceroll good mode and numbers like 3x normal on retail.
Very gear dependant. But one of top 3 dps. Requires some learning to pool rage properly.
Normally not hard to get 1 slot though the guild leader might want you to respec for fights that need the debuff.
Fury requires a Warrior tank to Sunder, an Enhancement Shaman in the group for Windfury totem, and a Paladin to cast 10min salvations, then they are gods. In T4 it's slow going, but still perfectly fine, from T5 onwards Fury Warriors are competitive with the best dps in the game, so Warlocks, Rogues and Hunters. Arms is only really viable in Sunwell and if you have enough physical damage to justify it, since on personal dps Arms is quite behind Fury.
Will say this though, Fury is going to be quite popular so competition will be high and you're going to need to consider Prot for dungeons, since DPS Warriors are undesirable for Heroics.
Not sure why Cata realms has anything to do with TBC? Also prior to Lordaeron the server quality on Warmane/Molten was much lower. This is a new server, the Cata server is old as **** and has always been known to be poor quality. I haven't tested Outland numbers so I can't confirm, but you shouldn't assume just because Cata is bad that TBC will be.Quote:
Originally Posted by kur4k
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbazz
good news that the new TBC realm will have dual-spec. Tho apparently not from the start :(.
take this as you will
+ High dps
+ 1-3 raids spots in 25
+ Utilizes all weapons
+ Probably highest sustained cleave dps in the game
+ Highest aoe dps from melee
+ Damage increases exponentially with damage taken
+ Minor target swapping penalties
+ High mobility
- High threat and no dumps
- Dependent on gear and buffs
- No CC
- Dependent on high demand items
- Some professions feel mandatory
- practically speaking no CD's
- terrible buffs
- possibly forced to respec to arms/prot
- low dungeon demand due to previously mentioned
what BS weapons they should aim for?Quote:
Originally Posted by Velganna
thanks
Hard to get raid spots as a DPS warrior because there's a ton of competition from Rogues and other DPS warriors. And because TBC is very melee unfriendly.
Arms is the highest melee AoE DPS, not Fury. Don't expect to top the meters on an AoE fight if there's an Arms Warrior around, you can't beat them. Single target you should beat Arms though.
Hard to gear up because people don't like to take DPS warrs to heroics. It's bull**** though, as fury/arms you can easily "cc" one mob by slapping on a shield and offtanking it, never mind saving people with an intervene macro + taunt and pulling mobs back to the tank. You can bring a lot of utility as a DPS warr but since most DPS warrs don't know their class and don't actually know how useful they can be, DPS warrs have a bad reputation. Especially if your tank is not a Warr, a DPS Warr brings a LOT of utility (Sunder Armor, Demo Shout, Thunder Clap, Battle/Commanding Shout, Disarm). There are a lot of tricks you can pull in tight situations that could easily save your tank, such as for example stunning a mob with Intercept and then Disarming it.
Just be sure to learn the class if you want to stand out from the crowd. That means using Sunder Armor + Thunder Clap if there is no Warrior tank, Demo Shout if there is no Warrior/Druid doing it, etc etc. And be prepared to offtank stuff. When I raided as Arms I was frequently offtanking mobs in the big Naga packs in SSC. Doing **** like this will get you invited over the other Warriors who won't do it.
BS weapons: if you are Orc, go for the Axes. If you are not Orc, go for the Maces.
What makes you think that? Arms does good cleave dps and can really excel during burst (Fathom Lord, Bloodlust + Reck for eg) but Fury has equally as much burst but with more sustain, better haste scaling and cleave is much more dps efficient with faster weapons in high rage situations. Unless you're only focussing on cooldown stacked short bursts then in no way does Arms have better Cleave/AOE than Fury, at best you can hope to win the RNG lottery competition.Quote:
Originally Posted by poepinjehoofd
In hindsight though I would retract my previous statements (made before the server launched) about Arms not being viable (or as valuable to a raid as Fury) until Sunwell. Hindsight is 20/20 and Outland having its own bugs, balancing numbers, procrates, release schedules (PVE/PVP seasons) etc and being on patch 2.4.3 from launch has given a different experience to actual progressive TBC in 2007-2008.
Because Sweeping Strikes has charges. Yes, this really does matter so much. An Arms Warrior is going to have Sweeping Strikes up 33% of the time, because he is not going to eat up 10 SS charges during 10 seconds. Fury Warriors though, waste a lot of damage potential by losing Sweeping Strikes charges to offhand hits.Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbazz
Imagine 2 mobs close to each other. You pop SS.
Fury Warr:
1) Whirlwind = MH + OH hit on main mob and second mob. -4 Sweeping Strikes charges.
2) MH cleave on main mob and second mob. -2 SS charges. OH hit on main mob. -1 SS charge.
3) whatever happens (Bloodthirst, Cleave, WF procs or normal autoattacks), Sweeping Strikes runs out the next 3 hits.
Arms Warr:
1) Whirlwind = MH hit on main + second mob. -2 SS charges.
2) MH cleave on main + second mob. -2 SS charges.
3) MH cleave on main + second mob. -2 SS charges.
4) MH cleave on main + second mob. -2 SS charges. SS ends due to timer.
Whirlwind hits about as hard for DW Fury as it does for Arms in T5 gear levels (assuming 3000 AP 1166 for Fury and 1164 for Arms, assuming 2x Dragonstrike vs Lionheart Executioner).
Windfury procs hit WAY harder for 2 handers because it isn't normalized (842 vs 1228).
Cleave hits WAY harder for 2 handers because it's a main hand attack and 2 handers just hit harder (847 vs 1234). A Fury Warrior can cleave more often because of the faster weapon you say? You need to cleave 1.5 times as much as the Arms Warrior to break even on Cleave damage, which means you need to spend 1.5 times as much rage on Cleaving, and your weapon must be fast enough. I'm assuming a very high rage scenario here.
Now consider that an Arms Warrior is having his all Cleave damage doubled during SS because SS will be active for the full 10 seconds. Let's say the Fury Warrior gets the SS bonus on two of his cleaves, while Arms gets 3 Cleaves off. That means in the 10 seconds starting from where both Warriors pop SS:
Arms gets 3x 2x 1234 = 7404 damage from Cleave + SS. Fury gets 2x 2x 842 = 3368. That's twice as much for Arms.
Because of the 30 sec cooldown on SS this adds up very quickly over the duration of a fight. 10 second uptime and 20 second downtime means 33% of the time Arms is going to be doing twice as much Cleave damage.
And yes, Arms Warriors can pull this off quite easily. Here's how I used to do it. Save rage when SS is coming off CD. Time SS *right before* an Autoattack and queue up Cleave (otherwise you might miss the 3rd Cleave timing). Then WW (25 Rage) and Cleave (20 Rage) 2 more times, 115 Rage total. So long as you have 100 Rage when you pop SS you can pull it off if you get a WF proc during the Cleave rotation. If you don't there's Bloodrage (it needs to tick for 5 seconds to hit the 15 needed rage so pop it after), a rage pot or hopefully some incoming damage.
edit: just noticed that my WF math is off, forgot to multiply by the WF specific AP bonus. it will only increase the gap between DW and 2H.
I was speaking out of practical experience and not speculation, I played Arms and Fury in Surge and a few other guilds over the course of the server life, I also created the Warrior gear spreadsheet that a massive amount of people use on a daily basis, I'm very well versed in the theorycraft behind both specs and have considerable experience playing at a high level. I credit you on having experience and a good methodical approach to playing the spec but you're focussing too much on Sweeping Strikes when there are other factors in play.Quote:
Originally Posted by poepinjehoofd
1. Fury 1hand cleave ability dps is considerably higher, scales better with haste. You forget that cleave adds static damage, the percentage damage bonus therefor increases the faster the weapon. The single hit damage it does is irrelevant when talking about "DPS", since a Fury Warrior not only gains more efficient use of the damage bonus but can also sustain more prolonged use due to the offhand feeding rage. Even if you removed the bonus damage factor it would still at best only balance off due to Fury sustaining more use.
2. Fury WW cooldown is 1-2 seconds shorter depending on build.
3. Windury totem only procs from main hand auto hits (melee, cleave, heroic strike) and unlike the shaman weapon spell enchant it has no internal cooldown (so isn't constrained to 3s intervals). There is no significant benefit you get from Windfury using a 2hander that has any relevance to the topic but for sure Arms is more dependant on it with no offhand to generate rage.
4. Fury base dps is already considerably higher than Arms in the general sense, the spec processes more rage and tends to be more stable from moment to moment, it scales better with gear/stats/haste. The potential for poor RNG to gimp Fury on a moment to moment basis is less than it is for Arms.
None of the number crunching around sweeping strikes takes away from the reality of when you compare the two specs on an equal fight (lets say Fathom Lord). Arms excels during the burst (due to death wish, 4 seconds extra recklessness) but it drops down over time, it lacks the raw sustainability of Fury. On a longer fight (especially one with periods of single target) the Fury Warrior will pull ahead, and that's assuming the Arms manages to even surpass the Fury during the cooldown burst (which is exceptionally powerful as Fury too).
Show me an Arms beating a Fury (or outperforming Fury numbers) on Illihoof for example. Really the only reason for Arms to exist is Blood Frenzy, because if an Arms has to sunder or demo shout it's also gimped harder than Fury by default of having less free global cooldowns.
Edit : And if you come back that you've beaten Fury Warriors personally or something to that effect, I believe you. But this should remain a comparison of equal gear, raid comp, skill and opportunity. With those conditions met the Arms should only be able to beat Fury on cleave/aoe either through short timeframe cooldown stacks or the blessings of better RNG.
I think the most significant point you're missing is that fights aren't stationary controlled situations where you have infinite rage and everything lines up perfectly, there are factors you're ignoring entirely where Fury has a very significant advantage.