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It is exactly what you asked. Whether or not gbos is counted as another 3% or not, you'll always have an equivalent in a 25 man raid. Ergo all raid members (including tanks) will have it. So whether or not you count +3 to all tanks or not would make no real difference.Quote:
Originally Posted by HaixzElder
The bottom-line is that WotN is a direct EHP enhancer.
The last 35% of the DK's HP becomes about 1/0.85 = 17.7% more valuable. Taken a bit more simplistically one can roughly liken it to an extra 6.2% health modifier that is multiplied onto your total HP, putting the DK's baseline EHP on a level comparable to a bear. Same thing for Ardent Defender's passive effect. This always holds true because both are passive talents that are always active. Will of the Necropolis and Ardent Defender are considerable, permanent EHP boosts and that's that.
As to why the EHP increasing aspects of those talents are so desirable in the first place is a much broader discussion about why EHP is such an extremely valued tank characteristic (particularly in heroic ICC). However I'll try and condense the crux of it anyway: EHP is the ultimate metric of a tank's assured degree of survivability. Against grotesquely hard-hitting bosses like Sindy and LK, piling on as much EH as permitted is the most surefire way to make it as difficult as possible for those bosses to land a kill on you.
Going back to the example brought up by Ghostcrawler, let's consider another similiar scenario. We know that, at least in a vacuum, a bear with 70k HP and another bear with 80k HP would both die in no more and no less than only 2 LK melee swings, assuming they had the same armor. Yet, intuitively, we realize that having the bear with 80k HP as your tank would make the encounter go a lot smoother, and empirically it's also seen for a fact that the 80k HP tank dies a lot less often. And of course he'd die less. This is so self-evident it's absurd. At any given magnitude of health deficit, the 80k HP bear ALWAYS has 10k more HP than the 70k HP bear. If, for instance, both tanks are missing 50k HP, the 70k HP bear is at very real risk of death having only 20k HP left, and will likely die in the next hit unless your primary tank healer has a heal already queued, whereas the 80k HP bear enjoys that much more leeway, and will probably live so long as he has a small CD like Barkskin running, and if he gets a couple of HoT ticks, seeing as he's at 30k HP. These are little nuanced incidences that invariably crop up several times over the course of a fight and ultimately spell the difference between having 70k max health and 80k max health.
The reality is that you cannot consider tank EHP in a vacuum and then attempt to quantify the value of your tank's health as an integer value of how many unhealed melee hits he can take against a boss before he bites the dust. In most practical in-game scenarios, your tank is going to constantly bombarded with heavy amounts of accumulated healing and damage from numerous sources. Your tank is basically a site where health is rapidly and repeatedly transacted. Sometimes health is added, and sometimes health is lost. Both these things occur very often, but the more baseline EH your tank has, the more infrequently your tank's health value will reach zero.
In closing, the conclusions to be drawn are thus:
- EHP is one of the most critical benchmarks for measuring a tank's tankiness. As such a Prot Warr's inherent EHP inferiority compared to other tank classes has the biggest contribution in accounting for the fact that it's usually a lot less desirable - barring niche scenarios featuring elements that very specifically play to a Prot Warr's strengths.
- Having a PhD in Marine Biology does not mean you know how to optimize a tank. Or an expansion, for that matter.
Well i do agree with almost everything you guys stated for how weak warrior tanks are compering others talent side and defense cds.
On the other side i totally disagree with the usefulness on hes utilities.There is no other tank in the game that can totally skip game mechanics like warrior tank.
All of you seems to think that he have to stand like the rest of the tanks and receive hits, why would you do that when you can use hes spells to totally ignore the incoming damage?! In that way you guys so tunnel vision by playing other tanks that you seems cannot spot the potential he have and how to use it.
Few examples:
As offtank on LK in p1 there is no better tank than warrior.Shambling n1 spawn hes about to cast shockwave you stun him, Hes about to enrage you stun him again, hes about to cast shockwave you simply PH take few steps back and charge/intercept. Then redo the whole thing again every stun cd will be off cooldown.Shambling n2 spawn if shambling n1 is at the point where is perma enrage no big deal, you PH take few steps back shambling n2 is doing shockwave you charge him and use your big stun on shambling n1 2sec before stun disappear PH again and kite until hes dead. You dont even need a to relate on hunter if you tank it right.
Sindragosa MT why would you sit and eat the blistering when you can totally ignore that. Breath he pulls for blistering simply intervene to warlock mage or any class that escape that easily, after the cast charge back and there you go.
Tanked solo sindi 10hc on a 5.6 tanks, 29k armor without gems[actually with my favorite BC gems 4 str, 6 stamina etc for the socket bonuses] or sindi trinket reached 14 stacks was not a problem, after sindi tanked bane as off tank without problem, no group was not full bis we had two shamblings and **** lots of SR.
Alot more mechanics you can use as MT or OFF tank, doing it proper way MT LK is just a joke as warrior.
But wait no no no i want to sit like a tree in front of everything and receive every single hit and blame that healers sucks, class dont have enough cds, hunters are not dispelling etc etc.
I doubt Warrior has any extra special mobility or stuns (that Paladin doesnt have for example) that will make him worth on most fights...
Dont get me wrong, i LOVE tanking with Warrior, especialy RDF HCs, but with full PvE DPS gear and 1400 armor penetration (only 2/5 tanking T10 for the set bonus).
There is nothing else that brings me such pleasure of clearing RDF HC and farming **** ton of emblems, fast and easy...
There is no other tank that can do this.
But (this is a BIG BUT), when it comes to actual Tanking in raids, Warrior is simply "crap" when compared to other tanks.
Sure, play the class, have fun if enjoy it, cos in truth it really has a unique playstyle, just dont come on forums once u get to some serious raiding and QQ how warrior is bugged, when its actually simply weak.
And as others said alrdy, it is playable, but so is Beast Mastery Hunter in PvE, yet, its hardly seen anywhere cos MM Hunter is a LOT better.
Ceo don't embarrass yourself. The uses you described are so marginal I wouldn't even call them uses. A paladin can stun shamblings nearly as much as a warrior considering Seal of Justice is a thing. Blistering can be avoided by literally any tank, warriors aren't anything special in that regard. MT-ing LK as a warrior is undoubtedly the worst tank choice for a MT on that specific encounter. Also you solo tanking sindragosa on a 10 heroic with 14 stacks should only go to the credits of your healers and support classes (talking about paladin Hand of Sacrifice here). They're the ones that pulled you through.
P.S. There are absolutely no specials skills that will compensate for the disatvantages the class has. Stop spreading this bull****.
Think of me what you wish, this things i said are from real raids real situation working great without problems. You can bring water from 3 revers as usual. An because paladin is doing it just good as warrior thats why often he proc hes ardent on 1st enrage or any enrage on shambling one when hunters delay tranq? You compere random chance to stun with timing one c`m on ;]/ and two timed vs 4 timing stuns which lead to no damage at all from shockwave and enrage just normal damage.Timed sac is a sin for warrior but no to other tanks i guess be real ;]/
Dont want to argue with anyone as i already said if you stand and tank the damage like every other tank they are the worst, but they can do better thats what im saying.No one doubt that paladins are far better oftanks lol ;]/ just point how you can use warrior strengths when you are plaing with them.
ps. What from my post is not right that warrior totally dodge blistering damage, or that if you play correct they dont recieve any damage from shambling just normal dmg. They are the worst tanks ever made and ever will be hip hip orei for our savers paladins, druids and dks ;]/
Cut the scient fiction ;]/
So if I say "2>3, dispute this" then you dispute it and I reject the obvious truth I win at forums? Are you actually for real right now?
Again, Im talking specifially from tanks point of view, as in, what can tanks bring on their own.
Warr tank best. What more can a rogue main ask for, than 100% up-time on sunder armor?
Argent proc on a paladin = Death on a Warrior.
If they proc they did a poor job tanking, if they did a good job and had nothing exept that, that same situation would mean death on most tanks, not only warrior.
Holy Wrath Glyphed = 15sec CD stun
HoJ talented = 30sec stun
Sac, Dsac, Improved Holy Light, Aura Mastrery
Dprot, Salvation, Better T10 4/5 bonus
In every way, offtank Prot Paladin is more relayable than a Warrior.
AGAIN, u CAN tank with Warriors and do it successfully, noone is saying otherwise, hell there are people doing that constantly, BUT, Having a DK Main Tank with a Paladin offtank is the best choice for Lich King tanking, or any other hard hitting boss, and there is nothing u can say to prove that wrong.
People arguing that warrior is "bad" are not saying that warrior is completely useless and that u cant tank LK or any other boss with it.
Ofc u can.
Is it the best choice? Ofc not.
They are simply arguing with the people that are spreading missinformation that warrior is better and more usefull than other tanks while it is NOT.
Maybe do Expose Armor instead of beeing a scrub rogue???????Quote:
Originally Posted by Fluffybully
What I meant is that you solo tanking sindra on 10hc with a rather weak tank is due to your healers and support classes a lot more than your individual play.Quote:
Originally Posted by rc100
All tanks can dodge blistering, this is not something unique to warriors. It's not scienCE fiction. The only real advantage warrior tanks have over others is anub'arak add tanking and rs ember tanking. End of story.Quote:
Originally Posted by rc100
Edit: [;\
You're neglecting another relevant tank trait - "unhittability". Which is understandable because this gets overlooked by most people.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gnimo
This measures how frequently a tank is able to avoid suffering a full hit from a boss based on the boss' hit table. This is calculated by factoring in the tank's avoidance, including the boss' miss chance, and the tank's block chance. Near BiS-ish levels of gear, this figure for Paladin and Druid tanks works out to be, if I recall my numbers correctly, somewhere around 95% for a Bear and 90% for a Paladin. In other words, 90-95% of all incoming hits are either fully avoided, or mitigated by an amount equal to your Block value, which is usually somewhere between 2.5-3k for a BiS Pally or Bear, or between 6-8% of an LK melee swing. The fact that this kind of mitigation is up near 95% of the time bestows it with EHP-like levels of reliability. With regard to tanking purposes, this therefore becomes a very relevant metric that's almost on par with the aforementioned EHP talents WotN and AD.
I bring this up because while Pallies and Bears are terrifically strong in this regard, Warriors are much less so, being only 72% or so unhittable near BiS. The reason for the gap between Warriors and Paladins is because Warriors don't have a Holy Shield equivalent. Warriors are instead "compensated" by having the ability to critically block, so when mitigation occurs, it's more significant.
DKs, not being able to block, are the most shafted in this area, with all their unhittablility coming straight from avoidance. For DKs most of all, this is not something that can be counted on for mitigation purposes the way it can for a Pally or Bear. So to crown DKs as uncontested best main tanks is misguided.
The amount of cooldowns and strong selfhealing is what, from my point of view, puts DKs on the top...
But i can be missguided and subjective since i have more expirience and spent more time playing a DK so i feel a lot safer when tanking with it, than with any other tank (feral or a paladin).
If you admit you're being subjective and drawing primarily from your own experiences, sure.
Apart from the point I made, I think it's also worth noting the dearth of DK tanks (among top guilds) going into heroic ICC raiding. Most of the first 10 guilds to down 25-man heroic LK overwhelmingly favored Paladins and Bears. I recall also a number of Warriors, but to my memory, no or very few Death Knights. Not that retail trends by themselves are indicative of anything conclusive, but I think it's something that's interesting to note nonetheless. I suppose you could chalk some of that down to the fact that the WotN buff to Blood DKs came relatively late.