I doubt u could even argue with this kind of spec, while he actualy linked a good one and had some nice points. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by taralej
I doubt u could even argue with this kind of spec, while he actualy linked a good one and had some nice points. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by taralej
You realize the only difference is Might of Mograine and Blood Gorged being switched with Icy Talons and Endless Winter, right?Quote:
Originally Posted by Gnimo
Right.
I think you need to take a step back from WoW for a bit. Playing the same game for years and years on the same realm has turned you into an elitist jerk, who can't see further than his nose. It was not just me - it was many of us who argued with you, and our point was all the same at its core.
You do realise that Sindragosas Breath is also considered as Direct Damage Spell, right?
U could, if u just read what i posted, or did some research on ur own, or even tested it ingame.
All i did was ask u to explain how are Sudden Doom and Might of Mograine better than Spell Deflection.
U didnt even asnwer, so i really dont know who u argued with?
And yes i know the diference is Icy Talons and Endless Winter, but now that i see u know that aswell, it also makes me want to ask more questions...
Im not here to be a smartass, nor do i care if u see me as one. Sorry im not gona sit here and watch u spread some bad informations to newcomers. If u think u are right, prove me wrong please.
Thanks for ur suggestiong, but i think il keep on playing this game even more.
DamnOriginal made me realise i was way too focused on Icy Touch alone, that alrdy generates more than enough threat on its own, i completely abandoned everything else. I was too focused on building a spec that is best for tanking Lich King and Halion 25m hc i completely forgot some of the players out there might need a spec that can give them more when it comes to multitarget tanking.
I will try to modify the spec he linked for my own playstile, since it could be better for tanking more than 1 target, and test it out...
I know i can be a dense mother****er sometimes, but atleast i can admit i made a mistake and correct it.
U on the other hand didnt say anything while linking crap.
lol, Spell Deflection is just plain bad, what's there to explain, seriously? A 15-20% chance of taking half damage from a direct damage spell. Why would you want to spend 3 points on such a talent in that tier and why would you rely on it, like, ever? :D And yes, the whole point of deep Blood + Morbidity is to provide a balanced spec... At least you admitted that you're dense.
Anyway, on topic - with an Icy Talons spec like the one DamnOriginal linked, the glyphs would be Dark Command, Vampiric Blood, Rune Strike since the haste from Icy Talons translates into more Rune Strikes, too.
The entire point of getting Icy Talons is to boost your boss threat via Rune Strike and reduce the need for Icy Touch, giving you more Death Strikes. If you don't use Glyph of Disease, this is all a waste, as you will be forced to use Icy Touch and Plague Strike anyway. For this reason the glyphs I would use with that spec would be Glyph of Disease, Glyph of Vampiric Blood and the third glyph will vary depending on what you need, Rune Strike for single target, Death and Decay for AoE and Dark Command when swaps are needed.Quote:
Originally Posted by taralej
My main gripe with this spec is that you're picking up RNG aggro talents, when you could be picking up much better equivalents that don't have RNG in the frost tree. For example Instead of a combination of Blood Gorged, Might of Mograine and Sudden Doom, you could have a combination of Black ice and Icy Talons. You're gonna get a solid boost to your single target threat that does not rely on you being above 75% hp or critting in the form of Icy Talons and you're gonna get that 10% DnD and disease damage boost for AoE that again has no variables and will always be there. The end result should be roughly the same single target/AoE threat but without any of the RNG.Quote:
Originally Posted by taralej
@taralej
U are right, 25% chance (when BiS) to reduce the Damage of incoming spell by 45% is bad. Especialy cos its RNG...
5% to launch a free Death Coil on ur target after u cast BS or HS is better.
45% extra DMG when u crit with DS, BS, HS, BB is better.
10% increased DMG when u are above 75% of HP is better.
And all 3 of those things are NOT RNG based talents at all.
Crit % will be less than 25% in a 25m Raid when BiS.
If u get hit every 2-3 sec by an attack that puts u below 75% of ur max HP will make u lose that bonus on every 2nd attack u do (if u use a spell on every GCD, and if healers top u instantly).
Glyph of Disease is sooo bad cos u can refresh both Diseases using 1 Blood Rune and get an extra Death Strike, better to go for 10% crit chance on Rune Strike cos u need threat soooooooo much when it comes to single target tanking as a DK. My bad...
can all of u *****s just go and show some numbers from ingame or stfu
legit everything u all wrote so far is straight up out of ur *** without any ingame proof
spell deflection is good but no one ****ing cares if u take it or not
u pick up wotn vamp blood and toughness, turn on frost presence and jerk off because its so ****ing easy
no one gives a **** about minmaxing a tank because ur job isnt to do more dmg or some ****, u try to survive the ****ing boss encounters and keep aggro, not top some imaginary ego **** *** meters
get something better to do srsly
Spoiler:Show
This is a response to the wonderful specimen above. I've spoilered the quote so people don't have the misfortune of reading it twice.
I was going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume the possibility of you just pretending to be an imbecile but after skimming briefly over your very short post history, I'm not so sure anymore. Replying to your autistic screeching might be an exercise in futility but damn if it isn't funny. Not only have you managed to put yourself on a pedestal above every contributor in this thread while contributing nothing yourself and simultaneously insulting those who actually did, but you also did it in the most hypocritical way possible by ridiculing people for not providing numbers, proceeding to provide none yourself and then concluding that tanking isn't just about numbers. All of this somehow made sense to you. Bravo.
For the sake of the thread and every person going through it in search of helpful information, I hope you don't bother replying to my post with more of this kind of quality posting, but for my own sake, I really hope you do, as reading your posts makes me feel better about myself.
I'm gonna necro the hell outta this thread because I've received several messages about it, asking me for advice and spec. Again, this is my preferred spec of choice for BDK tank - for those who asked me for the link. It is not a "made-up" spec; it's derived from an EJ thread.
I lost my DK as my account got compromised by a "friend" so I cannot do any tests. But VapeNaysh420 is correct that we're just arguing here without any numbers. What I want to know is if a 10% boost on Icy Touch threat and a (potential) 20% boost on Rune Strike threat can beat Heart Strike, Might of Mograine, Blood Gorged, and Sudden Doom. I am providing a link to the rival spec: the one that dips deeper into Frost for Icy Talons, Black Ice, and Frigid Dreadplate. This spec is "made-up" and was purely popularized by players throughout the years, mainly for it taking Frigid Dreadplate. It's all been discussed throughout the pages so I won't bother you guys with repetitiveness again. The only way to really test this would be on a tank'n'spank fight like Marrow, DBS, Fester where one can look at Omen and determine a steady amount of TPS. A DPS test is out of the question: the deep Blood spec would win by a large amount, yet the Frost hybrid would spam more IT, which has a total 14.5x threat multiplier. The only other way would be by mathematics... if anyone is willing to bother.
About Spell Deflection: the only boss in ICC where this talent is useful is Keleseth (direct-damage spells being spammed). However, when Kele receives the Darkfallen Orb, one can simply use AMS. Also, DK is the easiest class to pick dark nuclei with. So yeah...
This is the final version of so called "made up spec":
https://wotlk.evowow.com/?talent#j0E...soZhxbxmMhkZ0o
The reason for it is simple: double aura.
(and almost no useless talents like Sudden Doom, Might of Mograine, Epidemic and Morbidity)
The double aura is most usefull in 10m raids or in pugs where u might not always have both Frost DK dps and a Hunter. Spec also provides u with awesome spike and burst threat thanks to KM and Icy Touch.
Melee attacks beeing top DMG when it comes to Blood Tanks also get a huge boost with the use of Imp Icy Talons and 20% haste talent above it.
U also remove the RNG factor of Blood Georged cos u never know if u will be always above 75% of total HP as a tank. What if u get hit every time u cast a spell, or 50% of the times, reducing the value of this talent while IIT doesnt have such downside.
Morbidity is usefull ONLY on fights where u need constant AoE aggro, where u should never use a Death Knight in the first place since with or without Morbidity DnD, and DK aoe threat in general, suck balls.
As for Epidemic, if u use Glyph of Disease (which u should) u dont need that extra 6sec.
Use Blood Rune to refresh diseases, use Frost and Unholy runes for Death Strikes, use Death Runes to spam Icy Touch for insane aggro.
As for Spell Deflection it works on Sindragosas Breath, it works on Infest on Lich King, any NON DOT (damage over time) spell dmg that comes in ur way, doesnt matter if its single target (frostbolt), aoe (arcane explosion), and/or cone attacks (breath from dragons).
(WowWiki out Direct Damage Spell)
So if u have hard time surviving any magic dmg boss, lose talents from Anticipation and Scent of Blood and get atleast 2/3 Spell Deflection.
Something like this:
https://wotlk.evowow.com/?talent#j0E...bobsoZhxbxmMhk
If u have low hit and find IT missing a lot, lose Anticipation and get 1% hit from Virulence.
Bottom line is:
U will have INSANE aggro and INSANE survival skills regardless of which spec u use (one i linked and one Taralej did), - if u know how to play that is, the only diference is Double Aura.
Even if u have a Frost DK and a Hunter in the raid (or enha shamam LUL), they can die. If they do, ur buffs come in play. If u are pugging, again ur buffs come in the play cos u narrow the need of another melee class for 20% haste buff and can go for another range dps for example, or better melee like Fwar...
As for the numbers:
Download Recount
Spec like a monkey, or spec and maximise w/e the hell u want
Tank the boss
Look at the recount and notice no matter what u do, melee and rune strike will always top all ur dmg done
Notice how no matter what u do if u dont spam IT u will lose aggro.
For some numbers:Quote:
Originally Posted by taralej
DBS
Spoiler:Show
LK
Spoiler:Show
Spec used
Spoiler:Show
Bottom line, IT always outscales any other ability when it comes to single target TPS. Take the averages and apply the threat multipliers, it's just tremendously higher.
Same goes for melee and Rune Strike - 20% more hits will be more beneficial than the 10%+x increase of Blood Gorged.
Sudden Doom is completely neglectable and Might of Morgraine is also rather useful. You don't have a lot of crit and you won't crit as much. Further, an IT non-crit still deals more TPS than a HS or DS crit.
Yeah, Sudden Doom was just there because the build puts 1 point in it, as there is nowhere else to put it.
So, how can I calculate the threat off that? Also, I'm guessing from the log that your rotation is pretty much IT-machine-gun, even though you have Heart Strike. I'm a bit confused.
That's not me, I just don't have a better log to show numbers. I personally completely disagree on using Heart Strike at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by taralej
Threat is basically Damage Done multiplied by the threat modifier. Multiply it by 2 for most attacks, 3.6 for Rune Strike, 3.9 for DnD and 14.5 for Icy Touch. Actual numbers are slightly higher, but it doesn't really matter to get the picture.
As Bensten said, when it comes to Threat Multiplier it goes like that:
DMG done *14.5 for IT
DMG done * 3.9 for DnD
DMG done * 3.6 for Rune Strike
DMG done * 2 for Heart Strike
DMG done * 2 for Death Strike
DMG done * 2 for Melee DMG
(numbers might be a bit wrong, im not sure 100% myself, but the diference btwn normal ability and IT is more than x10 for sure)
Spamming IT or spamming HS, it wont matter in the end when it comes to TOP DMG done ability, which will always be MELEE.
Melee gets buffed the most from Icy Talons and Improved Icy Talons.
When it comes to Threat, u have to do Atleast 3 HSs to contest Threat that 1 IT does, and if u combine IT with KM u get such aggro burst, nothing else can get close to that...
Heart Strike is there simply to provide u with some aditional threat once u start spamming Death Strike, since it deals more DMG than Blood Strike...
(HS deals arround 1800 dmg, BS deals arround 1200 dmg, on a dummy self buffed only as BiS)
In theory u can skip speccing into it, but there is almost no other talent u can get instead of it that will help u a lot (1% dodge chance, 1% spell hit chance, ...).
I used to not spec into HS but after a discussion with DamnOriginal i did notice HS does help with threat a lot more than BS when u dont spam IT like a mad man.
Overall, again, no matter what u do, ur AoE threat will suck as a DK tank.
If u want to do most single target Threat u spam IT and Rune Strike, so u buff those talents, going for some other talents to buff other abilities is like going Strength gems to buff Bleeds on a Fury Warrior while they do almost no DMG compared to other abilities...
If u have more Threat u can do more Death Strikes, aka more self healing.
Also, the most important thing about Tanking is rotating cooldowns, one more thing u really need to learn how to do.
I dont know...
This is what i got from my Expirience as a DK, and i tryed a lot of stuff.
I can retest both of these specs and post recounts, but i really dont know if its worth my time again, cos regardless of how bad i try or what i do, some people simply dont want to learn, which is the saddest part of this servers population...
Anyone tried Dancing Rune Weapon for tanking now that its threat is transferred to the DK? Seems like it might be a good way to get some burst threat.