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Usually I start with Fearie>Mangle>SRoar>Rake>Shred>TFury>Berserk>Shred to 5CP>Rip> 5CP> FBite> Reset SRoar with 3-5 CP> Reset Rake>>>>>
I've been experimenting and I found this openner to put me in a good position after the berserk and, make the maximum usage of TFury?
I'm trying to improve so I would really like some knowledge from your side as well :)
As far as i know the guy mentioned is using haste gears for more Clearcast procs, he is also full BiS. The opener you use seems fine, i would suggest to leave Tfury for after Berserk's end. Also, if you have Bear/Owl in your raid do not use Fearie, ask the Bear if he opens with mangle and if he does, you better open with Shred, and use Fbite only when you have atleast 10 seconds left on both RIP/Savage Roar.However, even if you have 10 seconds left on both, you might get unlucky with crits/clearcast procs and still not succeed in keeping both of them up. if you have decent gears, cry for hysteria if you have BDK. Another thing - never ever clip rip/rake. On fights like Lady/PP/LK(and many more) don't forget to maximise the usage of feral charge(actually that is not about opening but i alrady wrote it so.. :D)
Ideally a Boomie would be doing the Faerie Fire as soon as they finish casting their pre-cast, so do it only if they didn't. Assuming no bear tank, you'll wanna open with Mangle.
So during your berserk opener, you'll want a few things:
1. Be at as much energy as possible (but not at 100 when you activate berserk as that way it's wasted energy due to not gaining any during the GCD caused by berserk and of course not spending any during that GCD)
2. Don't run out of energy during Berserk - the more things you can use during Berserk - the more use you make of those as the energy required is halved. You wouldn't want to wait on energy during it. Doing a FB during berserk does exactly this.
3. Make use of your CP as well as possible.
So during your opener, to accomplish 1 you can go about it in 2 ways:
- Mangle > SR > Rake > Shred > TF > Berserk (yes TF before berserk is legit - otherwise you waste 20ish seconds of TF's CD and also the energy gained before berserk would be worth twice as much as the energy cost of things during berserk is halved) - careful not to waste it though if you get a clearcasting proc.
- Cast Gift of the Wild before pull to proc clearcasting (if this has been changed just dismiss this whole part) > Mangle (Free) > SR > Berserk
During Berserk you will want to:
Rake if it's down
Shred till 5 CP
5 CP Rip
Shred/Rake till 5 CP again
5 CP SR
Shred/Rake till Berserk runs out
5 CP FB (during the last second of Berserk or after)
(adjust Rip/SR accordingly if doing Berserk midfight but you asked for the opener so I'll stick to that)
This would be the safe way however it can still be improved but that will depend on your gear/rng/experience - instead of wasting CP for the FB (coz you won't want to waste all the energy with a FB) - you can waste the CP for the SR before the FB thus using SR later which would mean you also need to refresh it later during the fight. But you'll need to make sure you'll be able to still fill enough CP for 5 CP FB and to of course use the SR before the previous SR drops.
If someone else has anything more to add, feel free to, constructive criticism etc, I'm not as experienced or have gone too in-depth about ferals even though I've read through most feral guides and discussions I could find, so there might be some ways to min-max this more - but as it is, it's the best answer I can give to this question currently, and should do better than most openers of random ferals you'll find during your raids.
Thats one way to do it, but you loose much burst potential with it. I like to to use the full burst rotation cuz in raid enviroments, with higher levels of gear and haste with it, Omen of Clarity tends to proc very often. So you get that many more FREE Shreds which let you regen energy while you are doing them and it doesn't disrupt your Savage Roar and Bleeds uptime and all that leads to a "burstier" opener.
Mangle > SRoar > Rake > Tigers Fury > Berzerk
Shred > 5cp Rip
Shred > Rake (when its off) > 5cp SRoar
Shred > (when you have Berserk on 1sec duration) 5cp Fero Bite
The reason i do SRoar before Fero Bite, is duo to the fact that even tho Berserk reduces the energy cost of abilities by 50%, Fero Bites extra energy usage wont be used, and you will be on 0 energy and wont be able to do anything and waste Berserks duration. Fero Bite should ALWAYS be dont LAST, when your Berserk is close to be removed.
This is the perfect opener for a longer fight.
Tigers Fury is better doing before Berserk duo to 2 reasons.
Its passive effect will Shred DMG, and when Berserk is off, Tigers Fury will be ready again in 5sec.
With this you will have perfect and awesome up time on both Rip and Rake, and will be able to do Fero Bites whenever you get some lucky Clearcasting procs.
As for gear, haste is the way to go once u hit end game. Reason: More Melee > More Clearcasting > More Fero Bites.
http://armory.warmane.com/character/...ecrown/summary
This is the gear you want to get. Gemming and Enchants are not BiS. For example, Neck gem (should be 20 agil), Wrist enchant (should be 50ap), Signet of Twilight gem (should be 10agil10haste). Im mainly using the ones on armory duo to the fact that it fixes my OCD problems, and im triggering some friends of mine with them. xD
Anyhow, FF should be done by Moonkin, and you should NEVER use Tigers Fury AFTER Berserk, always use it BEFORE.
What I posted above is the "burstiest" way you can open (afaik) without losing dps 20 seconds into the fight due to wasting your energy on a FB mid-berserk. Otherwise you'll def lose 1-2 shreds, and you can't count on lucky omen procs as they may or may not happen. And you still don't waste them in the opener I suggested.Quote:
Originally Posted by nedo
Pretty much what I said in my post above (about the opener) but note that you can do gift of the wild before the pull timer thus making your initial Mangle cost 0 energy, and with that in mind, you won't need to use TF before berserk, or you'll have to do a Shred or something before the Berserk to not waste the energy gained from TF. If you forget to or can't do GotW before the fight due to w/e reason including ninja pulls, then yes, mangle > sr > rake > tf > berserk etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gnimo
And def agree on the haste part over using arp cloak/wrist and gemming STR as haste would be worth about the same as STR, better in some situations, worse in others, however swapping to 2 higher ilvl items will give more stats than just haste which should be better.
Although, I'm not sure but you might be going a bit over the crit cap with all those agi gems, don't have time to check right now, but if indeed it's agi > haste at that point, you'd be better off (by a really tiny margin) doing a 20 agi gem in the legs instead of 20 expertise, replacing the agi + haste and the 20 hit gem with 10 exp 10 hit gems, effectively getting 10 agi instead of 10 haste.
If you get Clearcasting proc before you TF and Berserk, you simply do 1 more Shread.
You want to use almost all the energy and all clearcasting procs before u TF > Berserk.
You always do TF > Berserk, no matter what, thats the best opener, and you always want to do Fero Bite at the end of Berserk, so you dont end up having downtime while Berserk is up.
This means that you should spam couple of Shreds, even tho you have 5 CPs on the target, before you Fero Bite 1sec before Berserk runs out.
As for Tigers Fury... Berserk will last for 15sec, which is basicly 50% CD reduction on TF, and not doing it before Berserk is like wasting 60 energy on nothing.
On top of it all, 2nd TF will most likely be a perfect tool for extra Fero Bite after the opener, since the duration on all your buff/debuffs will be good enough to afford one. Also, there is no better way to use TF buff than casting it before Berserk, since thats the only time you will do more than 2 Shreds after it.
As for the gemming, i find all this extra agility and crit usefull for combo points, nothing else.
If you really want to just reach the soft crit cap and gem something else, you should go for Haste gems if u ask me.
Both 20 haste in yellow slot, or 10agil10haste in red slots. I dont find Strength to be usefull, since it increases the attack power by a small amount, compared to how much you have (arround 13-15k fully raid buffed in Cat form).
With extra Haste u get extra Melee hits which lead to potential more Clearcasting procs which leads to more abilities and so on...
Altho, i think that i am at 81.2% crit chance with this setup (fully raid buffed with 5/5 Idol), which is almost a perfect soft crit cap. I guess if I used the 10agil10haste gem in both Ring and Neck, and a proper wrist enchant, i would be on a perfect 80.8% crit chance which is esencialy the soft crit cap for druids.
Gemming and enchanting on that char is maxed out, nothing will be better than this (part from the 2 OCD gems and wrist enchant), the only thing you could change is to use Berserking instead of Mongoose weapon enchant. But, again, i prefer that extra Agil for the Crit and i guess that extra Haste from Mongoose is gucci (altho i could say that Mongoose is also an OCD enchant for me).
At point where i am atm, haste is better than agil so there is no need to get any extra agil for the cost of haste. And as i said, nothing that u change in gemming will give u any extra stat.
Not to go too off topic with the gemming/gearing part, agility dips in value after about 80 agi from gear (including tear) at bis according to rawr (with berserking, with mongoose it's sooner), but then again rawr won't be completely accurate (2.34 FBs on a 3 minute fight...). Regardless the DPS difference will be minor and won't continue on that except that I'll add that the extra CP you'd get from that agi during berserk will be irrelevant as you'll waste CP during it anyway.
About the opener:
Since you can do GotW and guarantee a free mangle on pull, the opener with TF will be as follows:
Opener1: Mangle (free) > SR > Rake > Shred > TF > Berserk, leaving you with 98+ energy for the Berserk, which would be perfect. A CC proc would "waste" 8 energy given by TF.
The benefit of using TF before Berserk is starting Berserk with full energy thus the energy given from TF is worth twice as much.
What I'm suggesting is the following:
Opener2: Mangle (free) > SR (25 energy) > Berserk with 95+ energy. A CC proc would waste 5 energy.
However, this accomplished without using TF the same thing the other opener accomplished with using TF. Thus the argument about 50% of the CD of TF being wasted can actually be reversed to support this opener - with this opener you can TF as soon as Berserk ends, and not have to wait 14-15 seconds on it, while accomplishing the same thing as the other opener.
The minor differences:
Opener1 - higher chances of wasting energy due to CC procs or external energy (rdruid) due to taking longer to use Berserk. Delaying Berserk a few seconds (negligible). Having rake up 1 second earlier but then probably have 1-2 second downtime on it as soon as berserk ends due to no energy. TF in best scenario being worth UP TO 120 energy. TF on CD for 15 seconds after Berserk. Probably undervaluing this a bit but yeah.
Opener2 - lower chances of wasting energy, berserking quicker, delayed rake for 1 second but having energy ready for it as soon as berserk ends. TF worth 60 energy but having it available as soon as Berserk ends instead of having an unnecessary 15 second CD on it. Not wasting the damage boost from TF.
Now if you sum it up, the difference is... basically nothing. If you get lucky with CC procs - opener 1 gets a bit behind due to the energy of TF not being worth 120 (60*2) but losing 20 on that for every CC proc. Opener 2 might get another FB after the Berserk ends (with DBW/Hysteria up before having to do a Rip due to having extra energy, especially if you get a CC proc. If the rdruids knows what they are doing, there's 70+% chance you'll waste some energy here as well (WG on you with 2 rejuv ticks, opener 2 is shorter and will have less chances to waste energy).
Sorry for the possibly not-so-concise reply, just throwing out stuff though. My point is they are more or less the same, as long as you don't use an early FB during berserk, you're good to go.
QUOTE=Gnimo;2962574]Also, there is no better way to use TF buff than casting it before Berserk, since thats the only time you will do more than 2 Shreds after it.[/QUOTE]
You lose the TF buff after using berserk.
I played with both Strength and Agility. Crit and Haste.
Agility wins it for me, mainly duo to more Combo Points. Haste aslo, duo to more Clearcasting procs (even tho i know its RNG and that 5% probably wont make almost any difference in game, but in the end, you will do 5% more melee attacks which is 5% more chance for clearcasting to proc).
The major difference btwn TF before and after Berserk is that in the end, you will do more TFs if you do it before Berserk.
You can find all kind of "situations" in which TF shouldnt be done before Berserk, but in the end, its always better to use TF before Berserk.
U just need 1-2 clearcasting procs after Berserk runs out, before/after 2nd TF to have a free Fero Bite and have uptime on all buffs/debuffs at 100%.
That is the main reason why this opener is the best on any fight that will last more than 1-2min.
Also, noone is going to guarantee that CC will proc on GotW, or any time soon when you start dpsing.
For your opener 2, you could have done: Rake > Shred > TF > Berserk and be on same energy pool when you pop Berserk and do same amount of abilities while in Berserk mode, which in the end made you get extra Rake and Shred at the start.
Hell, delaying TF wont give you anything in return, exept for a longer downtime once you used TF after Berserk.
TF (60 energy) > Berserk > 15sec > TF > 30sec > TF > ...
Berserk > TF > 30sec > TF > ...
If this is not simple enough to explain it to you why its better to use TF before Berserk, idk what is.
The only questionable part when it comes to opener is weather you should use Fero Bite the first time you are able to, during Berserk, or should u just get a 5 CP Savage Roar, spam more Shreds in the end, and finish Berserk with that Fero Bite.
As for the quote, i completely forgot about that, you are right that u lose TF buff once u hit Berserk.
Ever tried it recently, in a raid group? Should be done as boomy too for 15% damage increase for a few seconds in the opener, again, BEFORE the pull timer. You can do it as many times as you can but it should proc on the first 1-2 uses.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gnimo
That's the only non-questionable part imo, you should def do that, although as i explained a few posts above, it's even better to waste the CPs for the SR before the FB because that way you push back when you need to use SR during the fight again, as long as your crit/gear/rng is good and you know you'll have enough shreds for the FB before berserk runs out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gnimo
So you'll do mangle + SR regardless at start, with the mangle being free, then either Rake + Shred + TF + Berserk or Berserk only and have TF to better utilize your energy after Berserk will both do about the same. I won't bother explaining again how the TF before the berserk may be meaningless and depending on the fight length, rng, how comfortable and fast the player is, it may be better or it may be worse.
Really what OP should get from this is: have Mangle and SR before the berserk then make sure you are at full energy for the berserk and if you are gonna TF make sure to not waste the energy given from TF. 5 CP Rip + 5 CP SR + 5 CP FB at the end of Berserk is how the cycle should go and using the 5 CP FB at any point during Berserk that isn't the last second will result in a rather big DPS loss.
Doing TF at the start, you will always be 60 energy ahead of the feral that did it after Berserk.
You gain nothing with delaying it. Nothing, except making an extra 15sec CD for it.
On any Encounter that will last those 15sec longer, you will always do more DMG.
If you fail to see that, i have nothing else to say.
I agree that you could do that Shred spam before you do 2nd SR (which is arround 1-2 extra Shreds, depending on rng, when you are at 5CP ready to do SR), and extend its duration, i completely forgot about that part, but when Berserk has 7sec left on it, you should do SR and start going for 5 CP Fero Bite. You can do it at 5-6sec aswell, but with some bad RNG you wont be able to pull off that Fero Bite (dont be greedy especially if you had a bad start with Crits/CPs or no CC procs).
When it comes to GotW spam before the pull, I thought they "fixed" it long time ago, didnt know that its possible again. Will check it in the next raid...
P.S. I calculated the Crit chance i would have fully raid buffed, and with this exact gemming/enchants i would be at:
78.8% crit with 5/5 Idol agil buff. 80.4% crit with Mongoose up. +3% crit from the Ret/Ele/Assassin debuff on the target.
So i guess i could transfer some of that agility (around 75 agility) to Haste, and enchant Berserk instead of Mongoose, if i wanted to leave my OCD behind and to min/max everything.
You will not be 60 energy ahead as soon as berserk ends ;p Jokes aside, the feral that uses TF after Berserk will be on average 26 energy behind (15 seconds of berserk + the berserk ending 2 seconds sooner) as TF can be seen as +2 energy per second (60 energy every 30 seconds). I don't fail to see that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gnimo
However I also see a couple of other things.
1. During the burst, the energy both openers spend (in the first 30 seconds with hysteria/dbw proc) is the same. That energy is more valuable than energy during non-burst phases.
2. The TF before berserk energy is less valuable as well due to it being spent on a Shred that would effectively give 0 CP.
3. TF after Berserk allows me to spend less time on 0 (low) energy and have better uptime on my Rake (minimal, probably 1 second - Rake will expire about 1 second after Berserk ends and you'll need about 25 energy - with your opener that is).
4. Because of having 60 extra energy after the Beserk, I will be able to fit in an extra FB during Hysteria while also refreshing Rip during that Hysteria as well. If you TF before Berserk and spend that energy and gain 0 effective CP, this will be much harder or you'll have some downtime on Rip, it would be possible if a bit lucky but on average you're 60 energy behind which would be around 2-3 CP. Admittedly, with Mangle > SR > Berserk, Rake loses 1 second of downtime but as I said just now that will be made up with the other opener losing 2 or so second after Berserk. Also this gets me an extra second wait time on the first Rake to get that Hysteria if the DK is slacking.
5. The bonus damage given by TF is not wasted if used after Berserk.
6. CC and external energy (rdruid) is "less wasted". Every CC proc wastes 12 energy of the initial TF you do (because of the GCD + delaying its use for 1 second = 12 energy). External energy = 4 vs 2 seconds (energy in the 1st second wasted regardless, then 4 GCDs (SR + Rake + Shred + Berserk) vs 2 (SR + Berserk).
Rough calculations:
3 Melees + Rake + Shred = 5 attacks (prob a tiny bit more coz melees would be faster)
Every second = 1 WG tick + third of a rejuv tick = 15% * 8 energy + 15%*8/3 energy = 1.2 + 0.4 = 1.6 Energy per second. = 3.2 Energy for the extra 2 seconds in that opener.
So each time you get a CC proc = 10 energy from TF wasted (GCD) + 2 energy for delayed usage of TF + 1.6 energy from rdruid = 13.6 energy.
5 attacks (correct me if I'm wrong, if OoC ppm isn't 3.5) = 5*5.83% = .29167 procs on average = .29167 * 13.6 energy wasted = about 4 energy on average.
So to summarize, if you have a rdruid who knows what they are doing, on average you're ahead 26 - 3.2 - 4 = about 19 energy ahead.
Now for sake of simplicity and possible errors in the calculation or lack of a rdruid, i'd say you're 20 energy ahead on average. However you don't spend that energy during your burst and you also use it up on a Shred which gives 0 CP and you get some downtime on Rake. Once again, you're 20ish energy ahead on average for the whole fight, AND, if the fight lasts long and you use your TF on CD (right away), you'll have a TF right before the next Berserk (and this is definitely worth it mid fight).
But you're 2-3 CP behind for the whole fight as well.
So it's up to you what you wanna choose. Being 20 energy ahead vs being 2-3 CP ahead with slight immediate benefits after the Berserk. In the end, the DPS difference will be incredibly small, favoring 1 or the other opener depending on gear, skill, rng and fight length.
For a less experienced player that might get all panicky if they get extra CC procs before Berserk, TF before Berserk will be even less beneficial.
That's all from me, once again I'm not saying TF before Berserk is bad in fact it's a good opener but I'm trying to show that it doesn't have to be the only opener that will do pretty much exactly the same things.
And I agree about everything else in your post, and yes GotW procs OoC, not sure if it should, but the chances probably are 25*5.83% = 100% in 25 player group. Regardless, if using it once isn't enough, 2-3 times definitely will be, and since the proc lasts for 15 seconds, you can in theory use it as many times as your mana pool can afford which will be more than enough to proc it.
Nature's Grasp can also be used to proc it (1 min cd, use it when having nothing else to do), probably 5.83% chance to proc, mostly irrelevant but might as well.
Edit: You're actually not 2-3 CP behind but average of half that during the fight (you will be 0 CP behind when you use TF, 2-3 when I use TF), 2-3 CP behind during hysteria however.
Woah, you are really trying to make sence and have this work out...
You are forgeting that im basing my opener without a CC proc, so i would open with:
Mangle (CC proc) > SR > Rake > Shred > TF > Zerk
On top of that Rake and Shred at start, every 15sec after Zerk il have extra 60 energy and extra 2-4cps. So idk why are u trying to diminish that number (when it comes to extra 60 energy, idk why would you try to make it how much energy it is based on 15sec dif) since its always a flat out burst and nothing else/more.
The only downside are unused CPs but they wont matter almost at all since il get them after 15sec.
Altho, if you have some extra Shreds during your burst/opener, your argument is not valid since you waste CPs aswell anyway.
Also, Hysteria lasts for 30sec, there is plenty of time for my opener to have 2nd Fero Bite after the burst (unless u get 0 CC procs and low CP generation duo to no crits, which both almost never happen).
I will take Halion 25m HC as a perfect example where using TF after Zerk wont give you anything...
If you do it at start, you will have it synced with every Add wave for some extra Swipe burst, and will have it once you get inside Shadowrealm for a nice opener on the "new target".
As for other bosses and situations, i doubt there is one where delaying TF for 15 sec would ever help you out.
""Even so, im not gona bother replying in a wall of text, since the opener you prefer is a bug:
http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Omen_of_Clarity
"Druid's damage, healing spells and auto attacks"
So, using common sence, buff is not something that should give u a CC proc.""
Edit1:
I was wrong.
Apparently GotW should give u a proc (chance increases the more target it buffs as you said) while you are out of combat.
So i guess its legit way of getting a free CC proc before the pull.
Edit2:
I tryed both openers, and i really dont see what you see in the one with delaying TF.
I might be too used to the one im using constantly, but i doubt im making any of the mistakes that would be gamechanging.
Even tho i "waste" some of the Combo Points with my opener, i end up in a better position than with the opener you suggested.
With the opener you suggested, if i do 1 extra Fero Bite, i basicly lose rip, there is no way you would do 2 Fero Bites there without any backfires, like Rip lost or lower uptime on SR duo to less CPs which will end up making you have less Fero Bites in the end.
Nope not forgetting and that's the idea i was working with when considering your opener, so all the calculations I did hold true.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gnimo
When do you do the FB during the Hysteria? Coz you'll have about 13 seconds left of Hysteria after Berserk with 60 less energy. Rip expires in 9 seconds. No way you'll do FB + Rip in the 9 seconds but you can do it in 13 if lucky or if Hysteria was used late etc with pooling energy for the Rip (still have to get lucky) and then getting a CC proc in the 4 seconds after Rip to do Rake + 2 Shreds + FB = 4 gcds = 4 seconds, cutting it really close. Or you can do FB and then have a few seconds downtime on Rip.
With the other opener you have 60 extra energy to work with and Rip and Hysteria expire at 11 and 15 seconds instead of 9 and 13. I'd feel way more comfortable with this.
And once again, if you carefully go through what I posted I believe you can see that the extra energy you're ahead by is basically spent on a 0 CP shred. In fact if you were to look at it objectively, my opener is actually the one that puts you in a better spot with more energy to use on CP generation (extra FBs) because the energy your opener gained was a one time deal for a 0 CP shred. We both finish the Berserk with the exact same thing done except if you look at the timeline AFTER the berserk, it would be as if you are the one delaying the use of TF. What the TF before Berserk if you have the option to be on full energy otherwise (if not then TF before berserk is what you should do) is similar as in this scenario:
You have 20+ seconds on SR. You have 5 CP. Rip expires in 2 seconds. You have 40 Energy. TF is available.
Do you pool energy and wait for rip to expire, then Rip and spend the other energy and then TF to have more energy and fit in a FB? This is TF after Berserk.
Or do you do TF (get to 100 energy and not waste CD time on it) + Shred (not to overcap energy although you're at 5 CP already) before the Rip coz TF was off cd? This is TF before Berserk.
And yes, TF before Berserk if the other timings for TF would fit that is fine, but in a general case, it's not a must imo.
Mangle (CC) > SR > Berserk > Rake > 5cp Rip > 5cp SR > 5cp FB > 5cp Rip > 30sec passed, no more Hysteria on you (cps are generated with Shred and Rake, Rake 100% uptime having prio).
The last thing you do with your burst is 5cp Rip. So, i dont know where you get that extra Fero Bite from, with Hysteria on you.
Mangle (CC) > SR > Rake > Shred > TF > Berserk > 5cp Rip > 5cp SR > spam Shred while zerk is up > 5cp Fero Bite > all of the buffs/debuffs will be on a good duration to let you use Fero Bite with the extra points from 2nd TF.
Also, the last 10 Ruby Sanctums i was in, there wer not a single time a DK tank to Hysteria anyone, so using Hysteria as your example (even tho you wont make a 2nd Fero Bite in both cases, unless you get **** ton of CC procs) is a bad example if u ask me.
On a class and spec that works a lot on RNG from CC which allows you to use Fero Bite without losing uptime of buffs and debuffs in the first place, TF is just like a 30sec steady CC proc. So no, you can calculate its energy over time, thats atleast how i see it.