Frostfire Spec

Like with most my posts, I make them when I am bored at work. I have been fiddling with Frostfire specs and these are the two I have come up with. I am sure they are nothing new under the sun on retail and I have a feeling one of them is absolute trash in comparison to the other but on this private server I am unsure about how close to retail the abilities are. Any who,

0/50/21 (Fire Tree Dominant):
https://wotlkdb.com/?talent#oZfVc0Rh...bIccocd:Iidmzc
This spec I would Sorch to apply debuff, Frostfire spam, and Pyro on proc. Of course CDs when necessary.

2/18/51 (Frost Tree Dominant):
https://wotlkdb.com/?talent#oMZfVc0M...zfzxfot:Inimcz
I would cast Scorch for the debuff and have a /cast Deep Freeze /Frostfire Bolt macro for Fingers of Frost procs. Of course CDs when necessary.

Unsure how much I would use Ice Lance. I would play around with the Ice Lance Glyph to see if the DPS is better between using Frostfire in conjunction with the Fingers of Frost proc (especially when Brain Freeze procs) or Ice Lance. Priority goes to Deep Freeze for a Fingers of Frost proc though because, as of level 69, Deep Freeze seems to be doing more damage than Ice Lance.


Thoughts? I have not researched Frostfire in a long time and if memory servers me correctly I went Arcane after not too long for raiding. This will be my dungeons and heroics spec. I believe.

The first seems (off top of my head) quite close to the traditionally accepted FFB spec, though I think you want Living Bomb for any Fire-leaning spec

Not sure about the Frost dominant one, since Frost DPS is generally seen as unviable so I haven't really tried stuff out

Assuming those are for PvE, the first spec is the standart cold snap spec for FFB. The second spec makes no sense. Firstly frost for PvE is a big no, secondly frost never goes fire subspec, lastly even if it somehow did those two points in Arcane Focus benefit only arcane spells.

As a last remark, don't go FFB as it is pointless.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rifokelt

Assuming those are for PvE, the first spec is the standart cold snap spec for FFB. The second spec makes no sense. Firstly frost for PvE is a big no, secondly frost never goes fire subspec, lastly even if it somehow did those two points in Arcane Focus benefit only arcane spells.

As a last remark, don't go FFB as it is pointless.

---

Good point on the 2 points of Arcane. I misread as it being spell hit and not just for Arcane. When first reaching 80 I was under the impressions you either want to go FB or FFB until you have gear. Then again I have not played WotLK since retail. I went FFB Frost dominant spec just for fun and it definitely was terrible hahaha. I really enjoyed the idea of Finger of Frost and the other abilities helping out FFB and going a little into fire just for the ignite and scorch. Get 10% extra crit on bosses with Winters Chill and scorch are applied. I am currently doing the FFB Cold Snap spec and I am liking it for boss fights in non-heroic dungeons as I get some gear. Arcane is definitely where I want to go at the end of the day though.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Crystalleia

The first seems (off top of my head) quite close to the traditionally accepted FFB spec, though I think you want Living Bomb for any Fire-leaning spec

Not sure about the Frost dominant one, since Frost DPS is generally seen as unviable so I haven't really tried stuff out

---

After looking up a few things I found there are two FFB specs. LB and CS. I made a spec with CS for burst purposes in dungeon boss fights. I would probably go LB on fights with more longevity. If I am not already arcane by then.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Flithellas

Good point on the 2 points of Arcane. I misread as it being spell hit and not just for Arcane. When first reaching 80 I was under the impressions you either want to go FB or FFB until you have gear. Then again I have not played WotLK since retail. I went FFB Frost dominant spec just for fun and it definitely was terrible hahaha. I really enjoyed the idea of Finger of Frost and the other abilities helping out FFB and going a little into fire just for the ignite and scorch. Get 10% extra crit on bosses with Winters Chill and scorch are applied. I am currently doing the FFB Cold Snap spec and I am liking it for boss fights in non-heroic dungeons as I get some gear. Arcane is definitely where I want to go at the end of the day though.

---

On the contrary, Arcane is actually *the* WotLK gearing spec (with Fire being the 'preferred' endgame spec), so if Arcane is what you like, you might want to consider switching right away XD

Of course, Fire being the preferred spec does not mean Arcane is not viable endgame (if you like it). It definitely is, just that Fire's easier movement fits the content more.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Crystalleia

On the contrary, Arcane is actually *the* WotLK gearing spec (with Fire being the 'preferred' endgame spec), so if Arcane is what you like, you might want to consider switching right away XD

Of course, Fire being the preferred spec does not mean Arcane is not viable endgame (if you like it). It definitely is, just that Fire's easier movement fits the content more.

---

Yeah. Needless to say it has been like 10 years + since playing WotLK and my memory was super hazy. Makes complete sense that Fire would be more gear dependent than Arcane but for some reason I had a notion that Arcane was not viable while gearing. I remember Arcane being my spec in Ulduar and ToC and switching to Fire in ICC. Do not remember what I was in Naxx or in heroics. Been messing around with Arcane in Dungeons and it is definitely a solid spec, though boring, but I have always preferred Fire in general. It is funny, I wrote this post, and since it is so easy to level and regain the knowledge of this game, I have already messed around and figured out what I was saying and what both of yall have said before I read your responses hahaha.

Interesting discussion. I am new to the server but have played mage extensively on a different WOTLK server about 4 years ago where we completed all content. Although I forgot a lot of things, I do remember a few things about Frostfire spec, as it was my favourite to play (I was arcane/frostfire). I always found mainstream fire spec boring and wanted something different (really enjoy the challenge of playing arcane in end-game raids). The build you linked above is slightly incorrect (1st one), and as pointed out you must have living bomb. Overall you play with same rotation as fire spec but using frostfire instead of fireball.

Frostfire is actually superior to conventional fire build at the end game (and the important bit is "end-game". The main mechanism why that is the case is the total of 150% bonus crit damage from Burnout and Ice Shards talents. However! (A BIG HOWEVER). Frostfire build is EXTREMELY gear power hungry and will not work or be better than normal fire build unless your stats are insane. Remember the main mechanism why its better (150% crit dmg). In other words, your mental philosophy when dpsing as frostfire - if your frostfire bolt doesn't crit every single time, no good - you're not utilising that talent power spike enough (and that is the ONLY reason frostfire will be better than fire).

These are the conditions under which frostfire will perform better than conventional fire build:
1. You must have a good base of basic stats: hit cap, healthy haste amount (global cooldown reduction capped and good base for your FFB not to be too slow)
2. Your total raid crit target must be: 70% or as near as possible (I raided with 68-70% raid crit). This IS NOT possible without ICC gear! And therein lies the problem! You achieve this high crit by careful selection of items (high spell dmg, crit rating + spirit items are extremely valuable, known as double crit items for mages). You also take food buffs for crit and if necessary other consumables. The strain of FFB spec on your gear is insane! It's the reason I loved it so much, as we were raiding ICC 25 HC weekly and I was in a position to decide which build uses my gear the most. The answer is: Frostfire!
3. You must have high base of spell power. This is a no brainer, but allow me to elaborate. With the intense pressure to build your crit, you must make sure your base spell dmg bonus is high too, because the 150% crit dmg bonus will only work well with a good spell dmg base. That is why frostfire is so heavily reliant on gear. Your gemming will be different to normal fire build. I cannot remember my hero gear set now, but pretty sure I gemmed soft/mid crit (i.e. spell dmg/crit rating gems and a few pure crit gems - but I was full ilvl 277 mage, so my base spell power was very high too).

To summarise:
1. Frostfire is only superior to fire at maximum gear potential, typically seen in T10 only.
2. Frostfire can still perform decently (but unreliably) in lower content, but inferior to fire overall. Play it if you like it only, but be prepared to do less dmg.
3. Frostfire requires more crit than fire build (it is not just about procing Hot Streak, you want almost every single hit to be a crit (150% crit dmg bonus - the game crit cap I think is 75%, so you're aiming to get as close to this figure as is humanly possible, see what I wrote above)

Don't fall for that now, highest dps and demanded spec is TTW fire mage. It also has it's unique niche - you dps LK during transition.

Frostfire could be viable, but it does lower DPS, same as arcane - no matter what you stack. Have fun telling your raid team that you will not do highest possible dps because "I liek frustifiree bruoo", see how long that lasts.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Magicpatch

Interesting discussion. I am new to the server but have played mage extensively on a different WOTLK server about 4 years ago where we completed all content. Although I forgot a lot of things, I do remember a few things about Frostfire spec, as it was my favourite to play (I was arcane/frostfire). I always found mainstream fire spec boring and wanted something different (really enjoy the challenge of playing arcane in end-game raids). The build you linked above is slightly incorrect (1st one), and as pointed out you must have living bomb. Overall you play with same rotation as fire spec but using frostfire instead of fireball.

Frostfire is actually superior to conventional fire build at the end game (and the important bit is "end-game". The main mechanism why that is the case is the total of 150% bonus crit damage from Burnout and Ice Shards talents. However! (A BIG HOWEVER). Frostfire build is EXTREMELY gear power hungry and will not work or be better than normal fire build unless your stats are insane. Remember the main mechanism why its better (150% crit dmg). In other words, your mental philosophy when dpsing as frostfire - if your frostfire bolt doesn't crit every single time, no good - you're not utilising that talent power spike enough (and that is the ONLY reason frostfire will be better than fire).

These are the conditions under which frostfire will perform better than conventional fire build:
1. You must have a good base of basic stats: hit cap, healthy haste amount (global cooldown reduction capped and good base for your FFB not to be too slow)
2. Your total raid crit target must be: 70% or as near as possible (I raided with 68-70% raid crit). This IS NOT possible without ICC gear! And therein lies the problem! You achieve this high crit by careful selection of items (high spell dmg, crit rating + spirit items are extremely valuable, known as double crit items for mages). You also take food buffs for crit and if necessary other consumables. The strain of FFB spec on your gear is insane! It's the reason I loved it so much, as we were raiding ICC 25 HC weekly and I was in a position to decide which build uses my gear the most. The answer is: Frostfire!
3. You must have high base of spell power. This is a no brainer, but allow me to elaborate. With the intense pressure to build your crit, you must make sure your base spell dmg bonus is high too, because the 150% crit dmg bonus will only work well with a good spell dmg base. That is why frostfire is so heavily reliant on gear. Your gemming will be different to normal fire build. I cannot remember my hero gear set now, but pretty sure I gemmed soft/mid crit (i.e. spell dmg/crit rating gems and a few pure crit gems - but I was full ilvl 277 mage, so my base spell power was very high too).

To summarise:
1. Frostfire is only superior to fire at maximum gear potential, typically seen in T10 only.
2. Frostfire can still perform decently (but unreliably) in lower content, but inferior to fire overall. Play it if you like it only, but be prepared to do less dmg.
3. Frostfire requires more crit than fire build (it is not just about procing Hot Streak, you want almost every single hit to be a crit (150% crit dmg bonus - the game crit cap I think is 75%, so you're aiming to get as close to this figure as is humanly possible, see what I wrote above)

---

I played mage in WotLK myself. My server could not down HC LK on 25 man but we had everything else on farm. I remember going Arcane till ICC and I did not want to have to play Arcane till ICC again.

While bored at work I made those two specs. The frost dominate spec with both dungeons and soloing group quests in mind and one just for dungeons. The reason I went Cold Snap instead of LB was because its for regular dungeons and the fights do not have longevity. I thought it would be more burst. The frost dominant tree would apply 10% Crit to the bosses (At least on the mobs they show to stack) and the burst from deep freeze on bosses was amazing so I thought to try it out. The issue with that spec is that Fingers of Frost was not Procing nearly as much as id like. Surprisingly, when I eventually tried them both out, their damage and DPS was comparable when first entering non heroic dungeons.

Currently I have full T7 BiS with like 47.64% Crit on my standard character sheet in my fire spec with raid buffs if I remember. It might be higher. The Spec is not as good as Arcane but is much more fun. I did not try FFB in endgame ICC but I might try it in the future. Definitely with Living Bomb since fights last a little longer lol

FFB is definitely do-able end-game and I raid as FFB over TTW as I enjoy the frost and fire aspects it brings (ice veins is dope af). It's more utility for the raid than TTW as you have slow automatically in your rotation - you do loose focus magic however. It's also a very mana friendly spec. I have not spec the cold snap version but greatly enjoy the classic FFB spec. As far as gear, crit/haste are your friends, getting FFB close to 2sec cast is baller as you're criting most of the time.

Again - end game raiding.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Scheizen

FFB is definitely do-able end-game and I raid as FFB over TTW as I enjoy the frost and fire aspects it brings (ice veins is dope af). It's more utility for the raid than TTW as you have slow automatically in your rotation - you do loose focus magic however. It's also a very mana friendly spec. I have not spec the cold snap version but greatly enjoy the classic FFB spec. As far as gear, crit/haste are your friends, getting FFB close to 2sec cast is baller as you're criting most of the time.

Again - end game raiding.

---

Except for a specific variation which goes 1/3 in Master of Elements and 3/3 in Student of the Mind, TTW doesn't have mana issues either. And there's no extra raid utility from ffb, you don't make use of that slow at all (and don't say valkyrs). People fail to realize how huge focus magic is. It's 3% passive crit+ 3% that has almost 100% uptime. 6% crit is the equivalent of roughly 276 crit rating which is like having 14 extra gems. Not only for you, but for your mage partner also. How is Icy Veins ever gonna compete with that + how is ffb damage ever gonna compete with fireball damage.

I'm fine with people playing specs like , for example, arms in PvE. It might be worse than fury but at least it's something unique and different. ffb is exactly the same as ttw, same playstyle but you're giving yourself a clear handicap for some extra particle effects while casting.