Hello,
So recently I decided to make myself protection warrior. Currently im on 5k gs with it, but unfortunately i heard from other players that tank warriors are broken.
So i would like to ask is this true?
Thanks and have wonderful day!
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Hello,
So recently I decided to make myself protection warrior. Currently im on 5k gs with it, but unfortunately i heard from other players that tank warriors are broken.
So i would like to ask is this true?
Thanks and have wonderful day!
They're not broken. The spec is simply weaker compared to the other available ones in ICC and RS. The only two places where they get good niche use are ToGC anub arak add tanking and RS meteor adds.
But i heard that they lack armor n stuff... compared to dk and pala is this false aswell
Prot pala and war can use the same items and skill wise there is no differenc in raw armor stat. Where does prot war lacks armor?Quote:
Originally Posted by SHristov
At molten times, warrior was heavily bugged, taking twice the dmg than other classes even in rdf. But now there is no big bug that would make prot war unplayable.
As long as your guild does not progress heavily doing major HC fights with only NH gear, a prot war got no problem tanking ICC NH and most HC fights. Yes prot war is the weakest, but fights that you do easily with other tanks are easy with a prot war, too.
Warmane is at a point where prot wars are most likely not part of a guild raid and this absent makes more people believe that there is a big problem with them.
Id say its basically warrior's lack of a talent like https://wotlk.evowow.com/?spell=50150 or https://wotlk.evowow.com/?spell=31852
They essentially take more damage than other tanks
Prot wars talents simply don't compare to other tanks. Too many of them are damage or stunning talents.
This talents do not even proc once in many boss fights and if they come in handy in fights, it activate very rarely. The DK version is not even a real "O ****" talent, the second blow will kill a dk anyway if no heal is coming. Only pala stands out here.Quote:
Originally Posted by HaixzElder
Only fights were this is realy an improvement is solo tanking sindy and lk.
I see a lot of DK tanks die at Kele if the raid managed to kick their tank through the room...
Any proove for that? Many say that, but they never provide any statistics or logs. I am not in the situation to raid icc with a warrior tank setup and another raid without a warrior tank (on same gear level), to compare the numbers of both runs.Quote:
Originally Posted by HaixzElder
I am pretty sure that the overall damage intake is not essential but minor.
Since people here love to crunch numbers, especially when it comes to % armor reduction, a prot warrior got this https://wotlk.evowow.com/?spell=50720 to support a MT. Works best on a pala MT.
I am pretty sure Vigilance shouldn't stack with BoS, which makes your entire point for it moot.
Warriors have the lowest stamina modifier of all tanks at 9% for god knows what reason. They do have 1k more base hp compared to paladins and get some extra stamina from their ranged slot which usually puts them at or slightly above paladin total hp. Paladins however have more effective health thanks to the 20% damage reduction from Ardent Defender and two lives on top. Both are block tanks but paladins rely on high block chance which makes their block more reliable while warriors have lower block chance and higher potential for total damage blocked which makes them less consistent and more spiky, something you do not want in a tank. Couple that with the fact that paladins have much better aoe aggro as well, there's really no reason to take a warrior over a paladin unless you need mobility, which is relevant in 1 or maybe 2 fights in the current content or you just want them as an offtank for Safeguard.
I don't think you fully understand how these talents work or the fact that they can benefit you even if you're not below 35%. They provide an increase to your effective health for 1/3 of your total hp and since the boss will have to go through those last percents of your hp if you are to die, you will always get the benefit when it matters. You don't have to take a boss hit exactly at or below 35% to benefit from the damage reduction, you could get hit at half hp and get brought down below the threshold, thus reducing any damage that went past 35%. For example if a boss deals 50% of your hp in a single hit, every time you get hit at 40-50% hp, the only reason you're not dead is because of these talents. This damage reduction also affects spell damage which can create even more situations where you would've died if you didn't have these talents. Of course any tank is going to die to two consecutive LK hc hits with 0 healing and no cds but situations like that don't exist in heroic raiding. A much more likely scenario is that you do get healed but not topped off before the next hit, in which case the damage reduction from these talents can be the difference between you dying to the next hit or not. While the paladin version is just flat out better than the DK one, these types of talents have much better synergy with DKs as they're the only tank with self healing substantial enough to pull themselves out of death's door on their own.Quote:
Originally Posted by AluschI
It's not that warriors take more total damage, in fact block tanks usually take the least amount of total damage due to how blocking works. Yes, it averages out to less damage taken but you don't really care about averages in raiding, what you care about is spikes and warriors are by far the spikiest tanks due to how their kit works with low block chance and RNG block amounts. Bears deal with spike damage with high hp, DKs use a combination of high hp, WotN and self healing and paladins have Ardent Defender which is the most broken tanking talent in the game. Warriors by comparison have none of these things even some of their cds are just weak compared to other tanks. Shield Block is just bad with ICC itemization on anything that hits for proper damage and the T10 4p warriors get is just depressing compared to what bears and DKs get.Quote:
Originally Posted by AluschI
I will say that it's completely possible for warriors to MT heroic bosses, they're just the worst choice for it but still a choice. They perform much better in normals where the bosses are less spiky and the warrior's weakness is much less pronounced. The only place where warriors are just not viable is Lordaeron where the spikes are even higher than heroic ICC on Icecrown.
Warriors have the exact same armor paladins do without auras and the only thing you will achieve by giving the paladin MT Vigilance is reduce his threat by 10% because he already has 3% damage reduction from Blessing of Sanctuary. You're looking at the wrong talent in support of warrior offtanks, it's not Vigilance, it's Safeguard. 30% damage reduction for 6 seconds with a 30 sec cd is very strong and can help your MT more easily facetank boss mechanics that require switching like Soul Reaper, you just have to pay attention to aggro as every intervene reduces total threat by 10%.Quote:
Originally Posted by AluschI
The mitigation part of WotN and AD activates quite frequently. Even on DBS and Festergut. And both talents pretty much make sure that the second hit usually won't kill you, while a warrior has nothing to mitigate two consecutive LK hits without using a cooldown.
Warriors completely lack these passive mitigation features. That's also the reason for them to take more damage overall. Block can't compensate - not even close - in any ICC25hc bossfight.
In most boss fights you will never drop below 35%. Only in a few fights this is the case and here it is all the same, you get another hit without heal you are dead.Quote:
Originally Posted by DamnOriginal
Simple calculation
Tank with 65k HP and 30k hits incoming. Only tank that is able to survive 3 hits is a pala, druid, warrior and dk are all dead.
But we are not talking about Naxx raiding, in ICC you get pretty much 150% your HP healed in between hits.
DMG in ICC is that high that a 15% reduction statring at 35% does not let you survive another hit without heal, but with heal as planned most fights do not drop you down 35% anyway.
We do not need to talk about this small DK self heal, do we? DK self heal usually is 100% overheal, but nothing if there is no heal imcoming for critical amount of time.
Never see a tank dropping below 50% on that fights out of enrage and at this point every tank got his cds. Anyway, a proper tank does not get a 51% hit there and survives two hits without WotN but not another one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bensten
This is like telling a 90k hp bear tank that the first 60k of his HP is deadweight because he never has a health deficit greater than 30k.Quote:
Originally Posted by AluschI
All that extra health is there as a useful buffer in case you ever need it. That's the premise of EHP - you design your tank around being able to best handle being crapped on by Murphy.
The damage reduction from Vigilance is the same kind of buff as a Paladin's Blessing of Sanct, or a Disc Priest's thing. In general you don't want to Vigilance a tank because you're gimping his threat by 10%.Quote:
Originally Posted by AluschI
This isn't a well thought-out point. You obviously cast around for specific numbers that you thought would help your case, but this doesn't come close to reflecting what actually happens in most in-game situations. Even if your primary tank healers were completely incapacitated for the window of those 3 hits, and your tank doesn't pop any kind of CD in that period, you'd still almost certainly have the raid healers throwing an occasional heal or two on the tank in between their raid healing assignments. But even if that wasn't the case, realistically they'd still have numerous kinds of passive streams of healing incoming, such as HoTs, Leader of the Pack procs, Vampiric Embrace, Judgement of Light procs - all minor things that add up, then there's also stronger passive buffs like Earth Shield - all of which play their part in ensuring the tank is at his highest HP possible before the next boss hit lands. Over the course of 3 boss hits, it's not inconceivable that these sources of passive heals might push your tank's health just above the threshold where he survives 3 hits with WotF.Quote:
Originally Posted by AluschI
Its a pure siplfication some people need very simple math to understand that WotF is not op nor makes a DK unkillable.Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkenedHue
Its like saying that WotF is going to save your *** every few secondsQuote:
Originally Posted by DarkenedHue
Following this logic tanks should be pretty much unkillable. There is allways a lot non direct heal, that should save a tank anytime then. But why is it so that tanks die within seconds if there is a break in constand healing stream?Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkenedHue
Most tank death in icc comes with something like 20k-30k dmg over death, wether WotF or minor passiv raid heal is covering this up.
To be honest, most wipes are not tank death related, mostly the raid in a whole ****es up and people just lay it down. I dont know how other raids do it, but in our raids tanks do not die surprisingly, its mostly the logical result of mistakes. Tanks are pretty stable, always above 50%, heavy Hp drops are expected and covered by cds or off tank.
It is just not realistic that talents like WotF come active very often. It is not like that tanks without a passiv reduction at 35% HP are going to die anyway. Tanks are pretty stable in icc, WotF only comes if the raid fails and wipe anyway or heavy dmg is expected in the later case prot warrior could simply use shield block to have a save mitigation of 15% or more as well.
I don't understand why people are saying warrior is the worst tank - he is not. The point is : warrior tank is harder than other tanks mostly.You need to know encounter and when use defensive and after that ask for example for ps or sacrifice.Why ? Because warrior need to prevently use defensive cooldowns by this I mean for example - festergut got 3 stacks so he is doing a lot of damage - good warrior tank will shield wall after that last stand with enraged regeneration after that use trinkets and ask for sacri/ps - bad warrior tank will die since he will die in 2-3 hits .Paladin will survive because of ardent defender,dk propably too because will of necropolis but even these tanks would prolly use defensive cooldowns in that scenario.
Vigilance should be given on best generating threat dps. As warrior before pull to generate aggro you can use retalation and recklessness (on not hard hitting bosses) and berserker rage to have more rage then just simply heroic throw charge spam heroic strike shield block shield slam revenge etc. Warrior have nice aggro - prolly worse than dk on single target but still fine and is doing similar damage to paladin as tank.
I have dk and warrior tank my dk is 6,2k geared and warrior is very badly geared 5,4k and I dont think warrior is bad tank he just need items or game knowledge :).
Not to mention warrior tank is the best off tank because of SAFEGUARD talent which gives 30% reduction for 6 seconds,yes I know intervene reduces threat but in guild run this will be mostly no problem since you can salvation other dps. Intervene have 30 SECOND COOLDOWN so you can give 30% reduction with 30 second cooldown which is insane.
P.S soul reaper have 30 second cooldown so you can safeguard every reaper ^^.
The weak part of warrior tank is that his defensive cooldowns are strong but very long - shield wall 5 min with talent 4 min
last stand 3 minute - you can glyph that so 2 minutes. For all warriors dont use glyph of shield wall it's bad.With good gear you can gem avoidance to get socket bonuses - before all stamina and defense rating to get a cap 540.
Warrior is definitely the most fun tank imo.