Moongose vs Blood Drain

Hello people, as the title suggest i'd like to know your opinions on Mongoose vs Blood Drain in Prot pallys in particular, and i believe what make us different is the "interaction" between Blood Drain and Ardent Defender, I've read all the guides of protection paladins in this Forum, but on the one hand there is no consensus, some of them suggesting Mongoose while others suggest Blood Drain and other suggest that depending on the weapon speed one is better than the other. And on the other hand, none of them goes in depth on the topic or even justifies why one over the other

IMHO, i think i'll pick Blood Drain since it will give the effect when it's needed the most, end even if you'd lose overall damage reduction, and even some times Blood Drain will not proc at all. That being said, i'd rather have that boost in EHP in the Key moments of a fight.

Pick Blade Ward, its almost the same price. Why would you want inferior enchant to save 100g or soemthing?

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Originally Posted by angrylol

Pick Blade Ward, its almost the same price. Why would you want inferior enchant to save 100g or soemthing?

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Blade Warding? Thats close to worst tank enchant in the game. Low chance to proc -> lackluster uptime and gives avoidance chance instead of EHP.

I would also pick Blood Draining. There should be 0 negative interaction with ardent, unless its bugged. Mongoose is also a great choice, great uptime.

Mongoose is extra EHP + Avoidance, Blood Draining is a smart heal that acts similar to ardent and can be good in certain scenarios where the damage taken is really spikey (soul reapers, breaths etc.). Totally up to you which one you prefer, I personally like mongoose more.

There's certain scenarios where the crit+hit enchant comes in handy but generally these 2 are your only viable options. Blade Ward is a pure meme.

Blade Ward is dog****. Both Mongoose and Blood Draining are good. I'd recommend sticking with Blood Draining as it is literally extra EHP when you need it most (dropping below 35%).

Blood Drain has 10 sec icd to gain a stack, that means you can get 2000hp 5 stack heal every 50 seconds. "Every 10 seconds you gain a stack of 0.5% of your HP you get as heal when you are taken under 35%" Sounds pretty funny to me, but sure EHP is EHP.

Blade Ward indeed has really low chance to proc, lower than I remember and is pure RNG with no ICD. But even with that it's worth something like "+80 parry rating" on your weapon if I recall correctly.

And Mongoose will give you 240 Armor, there is no avoidance.

Blood Drain for sure is reliable, but 3-4 stack heal barely on par with JoL tick or half of some HoT seems a good trade for extra RNG parry once in a while. I used Blood Drain and to be honest I can't remember a single time where that heal saved my ardent proc. However I can recall some nice Parry that saved me for sure.

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Originally Posted by angrylol

there is no avoidance (from mongoose)

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Ever heard of agility converting to dodge?

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Originally Posted by angrylol

Blood Drain for sure is reliable, but 3-4 stack heal barely on par with JoL tick or half of some HoT seems a good trade for extra RNG parry once in a while. I used Blood Drain and to be honest I can't remember a single time where that heal saved my ardent proc. However I can recall some nice Parry that saved me for sure.

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It doesn't matter if it saved your life or not directly. As in w/o it you'd be at 0 health, but with it you remained above 0. It's a health buffer. Think of it as extra hp.

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Originally Posted by Rifokelt

Ever heard of agility converting to dodge?

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Sry, for some reason I was under impression that Paladins do not gain Dodge from Agility.

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Originally Posted by Rifokelt

It doesn't matter if it saved your life or not directly. As in w/o it you'd be at 0 health, but with it you remained above 0. It's a health buffer. Think of it as extra hp.

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Yes, that has never happened to me. Under 35% is "last hit" zone, where next swing will kill you. Let's say you have 40k hp left(45%), boss swings you for 35(reduced by talent passive reduction to 30), next swing you are dead no matter if you have 10k or 12k hp.

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Originally Posted by angrylol

Yes, that has never happened to me. Under 35% is "last hit" zone, where next swing will kill you. Let's say you have 40k hp left(45%), boss swings you for 35(reduced by talent passive reduction to 30), next swing you are dead no matter if you have 10k or 12k hp.

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And between hit that reduces your hp to 10/12k and then next, that kills you, healers have 1-2s to heal you enough for you to take the next hit. That 2k difference isn't much, but still can save you. Mongoose isn't that great in this sense either.. it gives you like 2% extra dodge chance with 60-80% uptime. And Blade Ward gives you 2.7% parry per stack and has about 15% uptime, which for me is just no-go.


My point is tank weapon enchants are minor.. chances of them saving your life are slim. Pick whichever you like more. I value predictability a lot thats why I choose Blood Draining. Mongoose is reasonably reliable as well. Blade Ward is unlikely to even be up.

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Originally Posted by angrylol

I used Blood Drain and to be honest I can't remember a single time where that heal saved my ardent proc. However I can recall some nice Parry that saved me for sure.

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It's a mark of ignorance to say something along these lines, because it betrays that you couldn't intuitively realize how flimsy the credibility of something like one's memory of in-game floating text numbers is. And it's not like you've gone through combat logs with a fine-tooth comb and analyzed all the times you received healing after being brought down to 35%.

As far as tanking enchants go, Mongoose and Blood Draining are the best choices by far. Mongoose probably provides the best overall balance of tankiness with its minor EH boost that has somewhat decent uptime. Blood Draining probably has the highest life-saving potential, because of how it works as a smart-heal that goes off if you're brought below a certain threshold. This is something that's reflected in the popularity of Blood Draining among some of the first tanks to clear heroic LK. If there is an argument against Blood Draining, it definitely doesn't start with "I don't recall a time this would have saved me..."

Having said this though, as other posters have already brought up, weapon enchants as a tank aren't that significant at all.

I'm saying that getting 2000 heal each 50 seconds that may or might not save you is easy price to pay for some extra parry that may or may not save you.
Idk what kind of wonders you think I'm promising lmao, but there are certain EHP thresholds where those extra heals will do exactly 0.

Agreed with the sentiments above, Blood Draining isn't meant to be a HPS enchant, it's an EHP enchant due to it's smart heal function unless you get 1 shot from 100% to dead in a single blow. The Blood Draining's heal trigger BEFORE incoming damage is applied, on any blow that would reduce your health below 35%.

On top of that, Blood Draining stacks to 5, healing 360-440 per stack, and has a 50% chance to proc on attacks OR bleeds (Seal of Vengeance counts I think) with >>NO ICD<< lasting 20 seconds before expiring. That's to say, its extremely fast to stack blood draining up to 5, and it heals for 1.8k~2.2k. The buff lingers until an attack would bring you below 35%, Healing you BEFORE damage is applied. Also there is no negative interaction with Ardent Defender's Damage reduction: Any damage that triggers Blood Draining also Simultaneously triggers Ardent's Damage reduction, so yes it is possible both effects trigger without your actual health dipping below 35% hp at all, which if anything I would consider a POSITIVE interaction as it means the next attack will also retrigger both effects (if blood draining stacks have built up in time).
(NB: Healing effects that applied BEFORE damage used to be bugged, applying afterwards which was incorrect. This was fixed on Warmane's Bugtracker at the same time Living Seed was fixed for Resto druids. All similar effects to Living Seed, including Blood Draining now correctly apply their healing before the damage that triggers it)

The Philosophy of the smart heal isn't that it's meant to consistantly save you. The same type of philosophy stands for Tanks that level professions that give extra Stamina. Going from 70k HP to 72k HP due to professions is unanimously considered useful by everyone. But think about it, how often do you "remember" that your health dropped below 2k HP and it saved your ardent proc/death? Probably never. Blood Draining's 2k heal (although less reliable than static HP) is useful because it COULD save you. That's the mentality we need to look at Blood Draining from. It's the same reason we stack EHP or bother gemming +30 Stam gems instead of crappy +24 Stam gems. It's the POSSIBILITY of our lives being saved that matters.

Everything said though, I do personally prefer Mongoose over Blood Draining. Blood Draining's healing amount is quite humble and in current content, nothing is challenging enough that I find myself scared enough of dying to use it. Hence i prefer the Crit + armor + dodge chance + increase attack speed from Mongoose.

Edit: Also Blade Ward is useless, it's uptime is like trash and even while procced it does very negligible avoidance anyway. But anyways, that wasn't OP's question. IMHO I recommend Mongoose > Blood Draining but that's just personal preference.

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Originally Posted by Raenel

with >>NO ICD<< lasting 20 seconds before expiring.

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I could swear it has 10 sec ICD to gain a stack

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Originally Posted by Raenel

Healing you BEFORE damage is applied.

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Does it really?

This makes me want to put Blood Drain back on, and now I'm confused why I dropped it in the first place.

Everyone is forgetting threat as a serious tank stat.
Mungoose gives you extra threat gain that is worth alot in certain raid scenarios.

Also the reason why i rate Mungoose over both wotlk enchants.