How are fury warriors in TBC (PVE)

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Originally Posted by bigbazz

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Here's a raid log of an Arms Warr totally destroying on Fathomlord, if you can get realmplayers to work.... http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/Fi...=95853&Fight=3

Blood Frenzy is the main reason to take an Arms Warrior, but that doesn't mean Arms Warriors can't outperform Fury on AoE fights. The SS number crunching proves that Arms is going to outDPS Fury by a fair margin while SS is up, I've not seen you bring any math to the contrary. I think that this margin is bigger than the DPS increase Fury gets over Arms while SS is down.

I've had the best results on AoE fights as 2H Fury. Being able to WW+SS twice every SS is creamy and I think you'll agree 2H Fury is the king of Warrior AoE. My second highest personal DPS on AoE fights was as DW Fury, but actually swapping my Black Planar Edges for Mooncleaver each time I would SS (yeah I ran Axes... only BS Weapon spec that crafts weapons you can use in Arms and DW Fury), and swapping back afterwards. I think that's actually the best way to treat AoE fights as DW Fury. In my experience the DPS gained from swapping weapons pre SS is a lot higher than the DPS lost from the 2 GCDs from swapping them back after SS.

As for the perfect scenario with infinite rage etc... that's part of playing Arms. You have to learn to play around the bursty rage generation, and you need to learn how much rage your combos are going to take, so that you can properly save rage beforehand. Any Arms player worth his salt is going to make sure he has a full rage bar before popping SS, and there's very little luck involved there. Properly planning and monitoring your rage beforehand is the key.

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Originally Posted by poepinjehoofd

Here's a raid log of an Arms Warr totally destroying on Fathomlord, if you can get realmplayers to work.... http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/Fi...=95853&Fight=3

Blood Frenzy is the main reason to take an Arms Warrior, but that doesn't mean Arms Warriors can't outperform Fury on AoE fights. The SS number crunching proves that Arms is going to outDPS Fury by a fair margin while SS is up, I've not seen you bring any math to the contrary. I think that this margin is bigger than the DPS increase Fury gets over Arms while SS is down.

I've had the best results on AoE fights as 2H Fury. Being able to WW+SS twice every SS is creamy and I think you'll agree 2H Fury is the king of Warrior AoE. My second highest personal DPS on AoE fights was as DW Fury, but actually swapping my Black Planar Edges for Mooncleaver each time I would SS (yeah I ran Axes... only BS Weapon spec that crafts weapons you can use in Arms and DW Fury), and swapping back afterwards. I think that's actually the best way to treat AoE fights as DW Fury. In my experience the DPS gained from swapping weapons pre SS is a lot higher than the DPS lost from the 2 GCDs from swapping them back after SS.

As for the perfect scenario with infinite rage etc... that's part of playing Arms. You have to learn to play around the bursty rage generation, and you need to learn how much rage your combos are going to take, so that you can properly save rage beforehand. Any Arms player worth his salt is going to make sure he has a full rage bar before popping SS, and there's very little luck involved there. Properly planning and monitoring your rage beforehand is the key.

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Your link didn't work but I believe you, I'm not saying that Arms doesn't do great AOE dps I'm just disputing the claim that it's better than Fury or that it's the best. It can beat Fury under the right circumstances, it has more short term burst potential when the stars align but there are a lot of mitigating factors and RNG that play out in everyday raiding that make life a lot easier for Fury, a spec which also has incredible sustained AOE.

The problem with the logs is that we don't have enough of them for conclusive data, on another logging site I saw only 2 relevant logs for example on Illihoof, one of them a close to BIS T6 Arms Warrior and the other a dagger wielding Fury Warrior, I mean that's the extent of the kind of data we have available, not well documented enough. Back in Surge we did a speed kill on Fathom Lord (which was the fastest on the server at the time) and I was playing Arms on that and it was neck and neck between myself and a slightly better geared Fury Warrior at the time, but he pulled ahead over time after the initial burst (we both demolished the rest of the raid due to AOE strat). Had I been playing Fury on that fight I'd have done more dps (and had done so previously).

Now had that fight been shorter and I had a little better RNG I might have beaten the Fury, but it's just too much down to luck of the draw with stuff lining up in a way that suits your spec, Fury performs better outside of optimal conditions and just has more margin for error. At best I would agree Arms is on a par with Fury for AOE, but with Fury having more margin for error and more adaptability I still feel it's the stronger spec.

For what it's worth I do know how to play these specs very well, I'm a 99-100% ranking player on retail (where I mostly played Arms) and as Fury during the TBC expansion I had already started banking some high ranks (like rank 23 on Shade of Akama, and top 50 on Gorefiend using WWS logs), when I play these specs I take things to a very fine detail in play optimisation and theorycrafting, part of why I created a gear ranking and theorycraft reference sheet on google docs, which was originally my personal sheet before the link got passed around by word of mouth.

Development of that sheet included a lot of testing around everything on Outland, procs, proc mechanics, racials, spell functionality, synergy, weapon speed, normalisation.. And what I found was a lot of differences between Outland and Retail, and I used that knowledge to tailor my approach. I'm always looking for testing on more items and help from more players to acquire that data, so if you're interested let me know in game (Quattro, alternatively contact Lulleh).

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Any Arms player worth his salt is going to make sure he has a full rage bar before popping SS, and there's very little luck involved there. Properly planning and monitoring your rage beforehand is the key.

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To use this as an example, there is plenty of luck involved here. If the target dies while you're pooling rage, nobody will weep for you. If you needed a crit for rage in order to hit SS in time for you to use it vs a mob, you might miss the opportunity and have to make the choice between holding or using, in the moment.. There are a lot of in the moment flow situations that dont look like a problem on paper until you introduce them to a dynamic environment like a 25man raid, where the raids dps distrubution and overall dps will affect the flow of things on a week to week basis (or even pull to pull basis sometimes).

I've wrestled with this exact scenario more times than I can count.

lol who the hell cares about "warrior aoe"? you still can't even hit all the targets in most aoe fights

fury and arms both boring as hell would not recommend if you're just looking to pve

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Originally Posted by AvaNexecre

lol who the hell cares about "warrior aoe"? you still can't even hit all the targets in most aoe fights

fury and arms both boring as hell would not recommend if you're just looking to pve

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Really productive and well thought out post, good job.

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Originally Posted by bigbazz

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Well I would love to theorycraft, test and improve etc., it's just that I've quit playing a couple of months ago (and I played Rogue instead of Warrior on Warmane). I still roam the forums from time to time to give my insights and engage in some discussion but I can't invest the time to develop new theories and test them anymore. Most of what I've said is from experience as a Warrior on HF2 (rip), it's entirely possible that Warmane uses different formulae and that what I've said doesn't apply here.
Anyways thanks for the great discussion, it's rare to be able to have an actual discussion with decent arguments on teh interwebs ;) I hope people will be able to read through our discussion and find it helpful!

Ppl . should we aim for that arp gear with Badjes. like chain of unleashed rage?

ArP gear is only really with it if you have a lot of ArP. The damage increase from ArP is exponential, meaning that if you have very little ArP it is a very bad stat (compared to crit etc) but the more you have of it, the better it becomes, until you have so much ArP that boss armor is 0 after ArP + debuffs (Sunder Armor, Faerie Fire and Curse of Recklessness).
So should you go for the ArP gear from badges? Only if you can get other ArP gear as well. Personally I would start getting ArP gear and when I would have enough ArP pieces, switch out the old gear for the new ArP set.

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Originally Posted by poephoofd

ArP gear is only really with it if you have a lot of ArP. The damage increase from ArP is exponential, meaning that if you have very little ArP it is a very bad stat (compared to crit etc) but the more you have of it, the better it becomes, until you have so much ArP that boss armor is 0 after ArP + debuffs (Sunder Armor, Faerie Fire and Curse of Recklessness).
So should you go for the ArP gear from badges? Only if you can get other ArP gear as well. Personally I would start getting ArP gear and when I would have enough ArP pieces, switch out the old gear for the new ArP set.

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Chain of Unleashed Rage has 154 ARP which is 1.03% damage increase vs raid debuffed high armor boss when you have no other ArP items equipped, if you were at 1000 ArP before equipping the belt it would instead give you a 1.18% increase vs the same boss, the difference isn't as extreme as you're suggesting.

The ArP pieces are strong in general, and ArP isn't a weak stat in a raid buffed situation due to how common it is to have Sunder, Faerie Fire and Curse of Recklessness in raiding. Chain of Unleashed Rage is one of the best belts, while it's worse than Red Belt of Battle (crafted), in the right gearset it would be equal or superior.

The ArP ring from Sunwell badges is simply one of the best rings in the game, Dory's Embrace one of the best cloaks. You'd never avoid these items for non ArP ones because even at a T4 level (where you have 0 ArP available) they are simply better than anything else you can pick up at that content level.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...#gid=107545378 - Here is my gear ranking sheet. There is a Fury set builder tab with damage projection calculations for armor ignore (which works both with the set builder and also allows you to input any number of ArP, select buffs etc), I also have stat weights for the stat at 4 different gear points, T4/T5, T6, T6 + ZA and Sunwell.

dam nice big, but i sow that u neve use badge gear (almost never) on that sheet.. why? shouldt badge gear from island be there??

regards

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Originally Posted by blica

dam nice big, but i sow that u neve use badge gear (almost never) on that sheet.. why? shouldt badge gear from island be there??

regards

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I'm not sure what you're asking. The sheet was initially made a year ago so the Tier 4/5 ranking sheet only has gear that was available at T4/T5 raiding level. It could be updated for Warmane to add newer badge items into the T4/5 level ranking perhaps. Either way the Sunwell sheet does have all relevant items added. I'll see about getting it updated this week to add newer badge items to the lower level gear ranking lists.

ppl.. iam farming like crazy to make my Dragonstrike for Mh, what do u guys advice me for Offhand? prob i ill use coins..

Just farm for the S2 offhand Sword. It's almost as good as the S2 mainhand, but it's so cheap that it's really easy to farm. Would be a waste to spend coins on a slot that's so easy to get by farming. I would recommend you get a trinket or something for your coins instead.

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Originally Posted by poephoofd

Just farm for the S2 offhand Sword. It's almost as good as the S2 mainhand, but it's so cheap that it's really easy to farm. Would be a waste to spend coins on a slot that's so easy to get by farming. I would recommend you get a trinket or something for your coins instead.

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Ye.. its a nice sword.. and now i sow that offhand (45 badges) looks nice no?

regards

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Originally Posted by blica

Ye.. its a nice sword.. and now i sow that offhand (45 badges) looks nice no?

regards

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Badge offhand is exceptionally good yes.