Tired of sub, going back to Assassination PvP, need answers from skilled players

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February 17, 2020
hustlahbrodz

Tired of sub, going back to Assassination PvP, need answers from skilled players

Hey guys,

So I've been ignoring my rogue cause I've grown bored of the Sub spec. I want to go back to Assassination, but before I proceed, I need advice regarding gear.

1. What trinkets should I use? I'm most likely sticking to STS hc, so really the +1 is in question.

I have: STS hc, DBW, hc, WFS norm, Herkumi War Token. Should I donate DV HC to pair with STS HC? Or go with WFS/Token. What are the advantages of each choice?

2. What weapons to pick?
I have: Heaven's Fall HC, Heartpiece normal, Gunship 25hc fast axe and some trashy ToC daggers.

Do I go 2x 1.8 with heaven's fall and heartpiece? Is the energy proc + higher mutilate damage worth it? Will it be viable to play this way up until 1.8 atleast when I will be able to buy WF 264 ilvl fast OH dagger? Worth donating one more Heaven's fall if 2x 1.8 is viable?

3. Stat priority? What I know: RESIL->AP->?->?

Is haste important (thus using token) and HC offset with haste? I have been playing mostly sub PvP and combat PvE so I have some arp offparts that I know I won't be using. Question is: are there any offparts that are a must to have as Mutilation rogue? Or going full wrathful is fine?

A spec I just made myself:

https://wotlk.evowow.com/?talent#f0e...fbh0dbV:nTiVmc

What do you think of this spec I came up with? It's my personal creation, and It fits my playstyle for 1v1 and world PvP scenario - "Blood spatter" talent explained. :) Otherwise the idea behind it is to get "Deadliness" for bonus AP, which is like a permanent 600~ AP buff, and I think as AP is such an important stats for Mutilate rogues, it might be worth it.

Give me your opinions and bring me up to speed please

Thanks
February 17, 2020
ihfhfaiofsaoif

Hey!

1. trinkets
Go with sts (hc) proc is just too good. Second you can try wfs because crit gains you faster energy regen via offhand crits + the proc is amazing aswell. You can also try wfs/hwt since the static haste and ap is a nice gain aswell. I would rather say that your trinket choice is not correlated with being a successful pvp assa.

2. go with double 1.8 (heaven+Heartpiecer), put deadly on offhand because being able to shiv wound/slow is crucial. Furthermore I suggest you go with with this spec:
http://armory.warmane.com/character/...ckrock/talents
(not me, choose assa spec)
I’ve tested around a lot with different assa specs and I found this spec giving the most consistent output. Dmg comes not from mutilate but from poisons/envenom just like in pve thus having maximized poison output is considered to give the most satisfying results.

3. Stats
Don’t go below 1150 resil, especially not in this meta. I would rather take 100 more. Gem Resil/AP. Get around 8-12% haste from items.
Bis should look like 5/5 s8, 277 haste/arp neck (pending), 277 haste/crit cloak, 284 haste/crit bracers, s8 belt/boots, 277 verdict ring, 284 hit/crit ring, wfs(hc)/sts(hc), 284/284 daggers.

Swapping pieces out won’t have much impact on your output at all - it’s more important to know when to use your CDs (coldblood, Offensive vanish, engi gloves)

Tips:
You should not KIdneyshot on cooldown rather use it to peel or stun someone behind pillar while he’s LOSing healer. Envenom is your best finisher, I barely use rupture - it’s more situational. You kill ppl with pooling energy and doing a pve rotation like mutilate-> envenom -> mutilate -> envenom ...
ruthlessness (60% chance to get 1 more CP) and mutilate crits allow you to spam mutilate/envenom combos but don’t overlap envenom buff (just like pve) instead pool energy. Keep in mind that Dirty Deeds give you 20% more dmg once target drop below 35% - these are the moments where you‘ll do big envenom crits (use coldblood, rocket gloves) and the above mentioned „rotation“ to have unhealable pressure.
„Bodypull“ melees behind pillar when they focus you while pooling energy and cps, KS them and do envenom spam to generate pressure.
You can do low cp envenoms to get the buff for faster poison stack.
Play with a DP (2v2) because lowfear can be an essential key of winning as assa. I killed dozens of restodruids because they came close to me, ate a mutilate/ks into a lowfear while I had time to pool energy and generate deadly stack with autoattack and follow the lowfear by a vanish/cs or garotte and big envenom/rocket glove. The gear is not as essential as your playstyle, don’t smash mutilate button instead try to lurk your enemy’s in to a situation where they are vulnerable for your consistent output.

Hope this helps you.
February 17, 2020
hustlahbrodz

Quote:

Originally Posted by ihfhfaiofsaoif

Hey!

1. trinkets
Go with sts (hc) proc is just too good. Second you can try wfs because crit gains you faster energy regen via offhand crits + the proc is amazing aswell. You can also try wfs/hwt since the static haste and ap is a nice gain aswell. I would rather say that your trinket choice is not correlated with being a successful pvp assa.

2. go with double 1.8 (heaven+Heartpiecer), put deadly on offhand because being able to shiv wound/slow is crucial. Furthermore I suggest you go with with this spec:
http://armory.warmane.com/character/...ckrock/talents
(not me, choose assa spec)
I’ve tested around a lot with different assa specs and I found this spec giving the most consistent output. Dmg comes not from mutilate but from poisons/envenom just like in pve thus having maximized poison output is considered to give the most satisfying results.

3. Stats
Don’t go below 1150 resil, especially not in this meta. I would rather take 100 more. Gem Resil/AP. Get around 8-12% haste from items.
Bis should look like 5/5 s8, 277 haste/arp neck (pending), 277 haste/crit cloak, 284 haste/crit bracers, s8 belt/boots, 277 verdict ring, 284 hit/crit ring, wfs(hc)/sts(hc), 284/284 daggers.

Swapping pieces out won’t have much impact on your output at all - it’s more important to know when to use your CDs (coldblood, Offensive vanish, engi gloves)

Tips:
You should not KIdneyshot on cooldown rather use it to peel or stun someone behind pillar while he’s LOSing healer. Envenom is your best finisher, I barely use rupture - it’s more situational. You kill ppl with pooling energy and doing a pve rotation like mutilate-> envenom -> mutilate -> envenom ...
ruthlessness (60% chance to get 1 more CP) and mutilate crits allow you to spam mutilate/envenom combos but don’t overlap envenom buff (just like pve) instead pool energy. Keep in mind that Dirty Deeds give you 20% more dmg once target drop below 35% - these are the moments where you‘ll do big envenom crits (use coldblood, rocket gloves) and the above mentioned „rotation“ to have unhealable pressure.
„Bodypull“ melees behind pillar when they focus you while pooling energy and cps, KS them and do envenom spam to generate pressure.
You can do low cp envenoms to get the buff for faster poison stack.
Play with a DP (2v2) because lowfear can be an essential key of winning as assa. I killed dozens of restodruids because they came close to me, ate a mutilate/ks into a lowfear while I had time to pool energy and generate deadly stack with autoattack and follow the lowfear by a vanish/cs or garotte and big envenom/rocket glove. The gear is not as essential as your playstyle, don’t smash mutilate button instead try to lurk your enemy’s in to a situation where they are vulnerable for your consistent output.

Hope this helps you.

Thanks. I don't know about WFS/HWT combo, I think I'll always stick to the STS and only change the remaining one with wfs/token. Is muti->envenom->muti->envenom rotation a thing? 1-2 CP envenoms legit? Rupture playstyle is using garrote + rupture, which you have 2 talents to boost it's damage with 60% + it's damage is increased by AP, which u'll have a lot with Mutilate rogue, especially with my spec that has "Deadliness". I glyphed Envenom so I skipped "Master Poisoner" and "Fleet footed" is more or less replaced by Feet enchant that gives you bonus movement speed (tuskar's vitality). I don't know, I just like to tweak stuff around XD Thanks for the tips btw, well-noted!
February 17, 2020
Overloard99

In pve as far as I know with good gear you wish to maintain 3 points for envenom otherwise it's going to be a huge dps loss. Don't know about pvp. Also you can take improved kidney shot if you're pretty sure you gonna kill people in first stun lock and so on. Very useful outside in open world.

Also to beat other classes I think bleed is a must especially against warriors and all plate kinds. So more attack power should be an option for gemming as more attack power > more bleed damage (poison as well?). Specing 2 into rupture instead of fleet working is also a considered option. Main problem about this spec is that you gotta spec to subltetly as well for preparations thus leaving your assa tree a little low with points.

The only thing that I'm never sure is why in off hand people use higher speed weapon. I saw in almost every guide people taking 1.8 and 1.4 in off hand or 1.5 never something bigger. Isn't faster weapon better because of that chance to miss with off hand no matter how much hit rating/expe you have?
February 17, 2020
Heliox

Quote:

Originally Posted by Overloard99

The only thing that I'm never sure is why in off hand people use higher speed weapon. I saw in almost every guide people taking 1.8 and 1.4 in off hand or 1.5 never something bigger. Isn't faster weapon better because of that chance to miss with off hand no matter how much hit rating/expe you have?

They do it so they can apply off-hand poison quicker/more frequently. Also shiv costs less the faster the weapon you have.
February 17, 2020
Sprotess

I agree with some parts, I disagree with others.

1) STS + DV , double DV , STS+WFS. You could even go STS+dbw since your wfs is on normal. Stay away from Herkumi/Taij for pvp, both are complete garbage. Don't be scared of armor penetration, some of your bis items have armor penetration anyway (PP belt, marrow boots).

2) 1.8+1.4, don't go double 1.8. Heaven's Fall/1.8 WF dagger in main hand, Lungbreaker/1.4 WF dagger in offhand. Up to you.

3) 1k+ resil in 2's/bg's/wpvp, 1150+ in 3's and soloq. Most of your gems should be resil for yellow+blue, ap+resil for red

4) Your talents are bad, the linked talents from the above poster are also mediocre. Glyph of Envenom is a waste of a glyph slot (not a great one, but still, sprint/CoS/tott/Vigor are all decent for the 3rd slot) not to mention the 3% damage and reduced poison damage on yourself that you're skipping. Bloodspatter, however, is viable and does a fairly decent job against the amount of platers doing PvP.

Tuskar's Vitality does not provide the same amount of movement speed as Sure Footed. If you don't like Sure Footed go for Quick Recovery, or if you plan on playing a lot solo you can even fetch improved kidney. Quick Recovery is also great against classes that dodge a lot, like ferals or hunters. I also don't see the point in going 5/5 in Deadliness instead of picking up Find Weakness instead, which point for point is a stronger talent. I'm fairly certain that Lethality is also better than Deadliness.

Also in the talents linked ifhf I don't see the point of 3/3 in Initiative. You won't be restealthing as often as a sub, you do a bit more tunneling. Focused Attacks is also not the best talent around. This would be my suggestion with Blood Spatter since you want to play that: https://wotlk.evowow.com/?talent#f0e...cuZ0hZebfbh0zb

These talents are somewhat customized for your playstyle. I personally play 3/3 Deadened Nerves instead of 3/3 Find Weakness since I'm mostly playing soloq and I'm playing Sure Footed just for some easier kiting.

The talents you can play around depending on your playstyle are (for the most part):
Currently in the talent tree (not necessarily maxed out): Lethality, Improved Poisons, Quick Recovery, Murder, Find Weakness, Dual Wield Specialization, Master of Deception
Not in the talent tree: Sure Footed, Deadened Nerves, Focused Attacks, Setup, Heightened Sense, Initiative

If you want to lurk around wpvp, fetch Heightened Sense as well and just drop some damage from somewhere (1 point from lethality, 1 from DW specialization and 1 from FW for example). If you want to just kill somebody in a kidney, drop Master of Deception and get some extra damage. The talents above are interchangeable, everything else is pretty much mandatory. Hope this post helps.
February 17, 2020
robycucu

sts + dbw is more than fine. atleast half of your damage is still physical as mut. also dbw s active lasts 30sec

i used double 1.8 for the extra damage with this spec https://wotlk.evowow.com/?talent#f0g...bfbh0zb:TGrmzV. this was a personal prefference so it might not be the very best setup
/you can drop 2p from dual wield spec and put em in heightened senses if you run into lots of rogues
/wound on offhand for insta slow
/sprint glyph is mandatory in arena for that fast sap/positioning/chasing etc
/prep glyph for the extra disarm

go for 5%hit, 900+ resil then full ap. assa stuggles in 3s so i d recommend avoiding this bracket

don t bother with haste

pve offparts with arp are always good

test with the items you have before buying something else and see what works

have fun dude
February 19, 2020
hustlahbrodz

Could u guys give me some tips&tricks how to beat warriors and dks.... feels weird not being able to use gouch and blind ...
February 19, 2020
Overloard99

Eh depends on your playstyle. If warrior/dk is pve full then it will be easy to kill them with subltely in one combo. But for pvp > you gotta need to use bleeds (so attack power gems come handy) and poisons like wound+crippling for warrior or wound+deadly for dk.

If you want to go to stealth > make sure you do gouge and then sprint and vanish out because of bleeds and so on. With subltetly it should be much easier to beat them.
February 20, 2020
hustlahbrodz

Quote:

Originally Posted by Overloard99

Eh depends on your playstyle. If warrior/dk is pve full then it will be easy to kill them with subltely in one combo. But for pvp > you gotta need to use bleeds (so attack power gems come handy) and poisons like wound+crippling for warrior or wound+deadly for dk.

If you want to go to stealth > make sure you do gouge and then sprint and vanish out because of bleeds and so on. With subltetly it should be much easier to beat them.

I asked from Mutilate rougue POV. Meaning gouges and blinds are more situational or even very rarely even an option due to poisons. I was thinking of something like garrote-ing them and rupturing, then restealthing and bleeding them out. idk. If someone could give me a basic rotation-like playstyle ...
February 20, 2020
Overloard99

Quote:

Originally Posted by hustlahbrodz

I asked from Mutilate rougue POV. Meaning gouges and blinds are more situational or even very rarely even an option due to poisons. I was thinking of something like garrote-ing them and rupturing, then restealthing and bleeding them out. idk. If someone could give me a basic rotation-like playstyle ...

Well I know basic combo for subltetly its very easy one but for mutilate I don't think you got same chances of beating them. Literally your poisons/bleeds are going to be killers there. Using gouge/blind is also important if they use their primary CD abilities. 1 sec is enough for you to sprint out /cloack of shadows + vanish and sap them if they try to eat. Then after some CD > repeat process. Most rogues are going to do more stealths in 1v1. It's just mandatory thing. If you don't have vanish >> blind/gouge > sprint and then wait out of combat > stealth.
February 20, 2020
ihfhfaiofsaoif

Hmm what i've tryed to outline is that gear, glyph and spec are to a certain point irrelevant for your success in (arena) pvp.

About 1.8/1.4: it is viable yes! but you lose the possibility to apply woundpoison (and crippling) via shiv because 1.8/1.4 only makes sense when you put deadly on the offhand. my personal opinion is that being able to shiv wound/crippling is crucial (in an arena enviroment).

Going less than 1150 resil is a big no go for me as assa because you lack Shadowstep, Gouge and Cheat Death.
Furthermore is assa a spec that rely on uptime, higher amount of resil will allow you to stay longer on your killtarget.

The talents i've posted are the most useful for assa in my opinion. i've tested alot of different specs, but focused on 2v2 arena + in the 284 meta, the mentioned talents result in the maximal success for me. Glyphs i use are Muti/Prep/Tott or CoS.
----------

But again i want to mention that spec, glyph and gear aint not what you should worry about. because swapping one part gear or talents wont make you a better player. they dont have a significant impact on your dmg output.
there is no rotation in pvp btw, you use your spell situationally. what i've atleast experienced is that using anything other than envenom with CPs results in a dps lose. that does not mean that its useless to rupture. Lets say vs wopal it can be useful. If you apply it early it obviously increases your overall pressure. also SnD is good when used b4 you swap a target, allowing you to get more poisonprocs, pushback and energy regen (Focused Atacks).

you have to understand that assassination =/= sublety, your potential rises with the uptime you have on your target, while subletly often rely more on crossCC and having clean GOs, while you and your teammate can connect on the same target. it doesnt mean that restealth as assa is a bad thing, because you will benefit from Overkill and can CS for defense or offense.

I would suggest you to watch some youtube videos about assassination in arena, while they will often not reflect the current playstyle/meta of warmane atleast they give you an imagination about the overall playstyle. Furthermore, recording your own games, watching them and understanding what you did wrong improves your gameplay and selfreflection by a large amount.
February 21, 2020
bumchaka

I have a question to follow up to all of this. By the way, great info in this topic on the mutilate pvp build, not a lot to go around of it. Anyway, my questions is why aren't people taking envenom glyph? Isn't it beneficial to have your deadly poison stacks stay up and stack for more damage? Or is it with the assumption that they will be dispelled off anyway.

Second question is about poisons, I see a lot of people mentioning that you dont want to use deadly poison on your OH but since just about every mutilate spec takes deadly brew, wouldn't you just pretty much always want wound poison on MH and deadly poison on OH since as soon as your wound poison is applied it's applying the crippling poison, plus if you're shiving you're getting the instant wound, deadly and crippling all at once right?

Great discussion though on a less talked about topic!
February 21, 2020
robycucu

Quote:

Originally Posted by bumchaka

I have a question to follow up to all of this. By the way, great info in this topic on the mutilate pvp build, not a lot to go around of it. Anyway, my questions is why aren't people taking envenom glyph? Isn't it beneficial to have your deadly poison stacks stay up and stack for more damage? Or is it with the assumption that they will be dispelled off anyway.

Second question is about poisons, I see a lot of people mentioning that you dont want to use deadly poison on your OH but since just about every mutilate spec takes deadly brew, wouldn't you just pretty much always want wound poison on MH and deadly poison on OH since as soon as your wound poison is applied it's applying the crippling poison, plus if you're shiving you're getting the instant wound, deadly and crippling all at once right?

Great discussion though on a less talked about topic!

because this glyph doesn t actually exist in wotlk. you have to take master poisoner talent for your deadly to not get consumed by envenom.

also this is pvp not a dummy test. people tend to cleanse/abolish/shapeshift/etc your poisons and it is more important to be able to apply heal reduction and slow poisons instantly allowing you to stick to your target.
deadly stacks will come from autos and mutilate. enve/evis should proc MH poison aswell.

assa does not have burst damage nor subt like mobility so turning yourself into a slow bot is mandatory.
February 21, 2020
bumchaka

Quote:

Originally Posted by robycucu

because this glyph doesn t actually exist in wotlk. you have to take master poisoner talent for your deadly to not get consumed by envenom.

also this is pvp not a dummy test. people tend to cleanse/abolish/shapeshift/etc your poisons and it is more important to be able to apply heal reduction and slow poisons instantly allowing you to stick to your target.
deadly stacks will come from autos and mutilate. enve/evis should proc MH poison aswell.

assa does not have burst damage nor subt like mobility so turning yourself into a slow bot is mandatory.

Oof... yeah i feel stupid idk why i thought the envenom glyph was a thing, big derp there, i guess I saw that link and saw it in the major glyph section and just tunnel visioned. Forgot it was through talents. Thanks for the info though much appreciated.

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