WotLK [Guide] Advanced Subtlety Guide by Qu

[Nexzye]

/cast [stance:3] Ambush
/cast [stance:0] Backstab
/cast [stance:1] Ambush




I have set up your macro like this so I have;
-stance:1 Ambush in stealth
-stance:0 Backstab out of stealth
-stance:3 Ambush in shadow dance

[parazyd]

/cast [stance:3] Ambush
/cast [stance:0] Backstab
/cast [stance:1] Ambush




I have set up your macro like this so I have;
-stance:1 Ambush in stealth
-stance:0 Backstab out of stealth
-stance:3 Ambush in shadow dance

Don't forget to add pickpocketing to your stealth macros like cs, ambush and such.

[parazyd]

Now that Hat has been fixed, which 2 talents will we give up to get it to level 3?

Still interested in this... :)

[Ricks2]

Still interested in this... :)

From HS or MoS, depending on how you spend the 2 points that you got from HaT.

Also, not sure why the guide is on 4/5 deadliness with 3/3 camo, should be 5/5 and 2/3 but w.e

EDIT: Oh and just saying, HaT is still bugged.

[Nexzye]

its normal that Im getting 2-3 shoted by plate with +/-900 resil in 2s at 1,9-2k raiting?
this started to hapen 2-3 days ago.

[Ricks2]

its normal that Im getting 2-3 shoted by plate with +/-900 resil in 2s at 1,9-2k raiting?
this started to hapen 2-3 days ago.

Welcome to molten arena as a rogue.

[Abra]

this started to hapen 2-3 days ago.

It's been happening for the last 2-3 years, so yes it's normal for molten.

[Dongwise]

From HS or MoS, depending on how you spend the 2 points that you got from HaT.

Also, not sure why the guide is on 4/5 deadliness with 3/3 camo, should be 5/5 and 2/3 but w.e

EDIT: Oh and just saying, HaT is still bugged.

Yep, it is, I think the ICD got fixed but the percentages are still bugged so 1/3 is still fine and dandy.

[Trollblod]

I am about to donate for my rogue but can't decide what I would draw most use of, I've thought of x2 weapons and a trinket. Thought of:
MH: http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=50736
OH: http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=50621
Trinket I thought of either DBW or Tiny abomination, what do you think? I'm gonna be bringing down people mostly 1v1 but sometimes 1v2+.

[jendah]

Trinket I thought of either DBW or Tiny abomination.

Sts should be the best trinket.

[Chojrakus]

I am about to donate for my rogue but can't decide what I would draw most use of, I've thought of x2 weapons and a trinket. Thought of:
MH: http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=50736
OH: http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=50621
Trinket I thought of either DBW or Tiny abomination, what do you think? I'm gonna be bringing down people mostly 1v1 but sometimes 1v2+.

Go for DBW and STS :P Weapons are easy to obtain if you play arena. With 2 most epic trinket in WOTLK for rogue you can easy reach good amount of ARP.

[Hopca]

Is it good idea to go 3/3 with Master of Subtlety, increasing 10% our dmg with attacks made from stleath and 10 sec after the stealth, talking about BG's ofc.

[Ricks2]

Is it good idea to go 3/3 with Master of Subtlety, increasing 10% our dmg with attacks made from stleath and 10 sec after the stealth, talking about BG's ofc.

Sure, just drop heightened senses and take 1 point off of ruthlessness and you got your 3/3 MoS.

[aciddnx]

Hello guys!
I'm new here and I just have one question to begin with: is HaT still bugged?
Thanks a lot for everything

[erbwba21]

Your introduction, I believe is somewhat debatable.

Keep in mind that Subtlety Rogue is not just about Shadow Dance and the huge burst in it. It is mostly about control, especially in the arena. This guide is from my point of view on Subtlety Rogues, so please keep it in mind. Some of my arguments may not be correct so feel free to correct me.

There are various ways that anyone can play a Subtlety rogue, but based on your overall spec you really have me confused as to what your going for.

Firstly, There are two ways to play Sub,
A( you play a burst focused
B( you play a control mage (but not a mage, just a term I suppose)

You seem to be mixing the two of them, thus confusing me. You can take points from both play styles, however you either need to spec specifically for 1 or the other, changing you specs depending on where and what you want to achieve at that moment.
Are you going to be focusing on 1v1? 2v2? 3v3? world pvp? all of that depends on your spec, its hard to be efficient when you are trying to combine all of them into 1, you just cant really do that efficiently.

For example:

This is spec focused mostly on combo point building

Well, your somewhat correct, but your missing some points.
http://wotlk.openwow.com/talent#fhe0oZhZebfbhMddVzAfRt

That is what a 100% control mage rogue looks like, the focus is not to do damage but to prevent and completely lock down and make the target useless. Control rogues in 3.3.5 are basically only good in 5v5 comps, which you rarely ever get to see them anway.

A control rogue does not bleed the target, they have no use for improved bleeds, and they use every trick and stun in the book to pin you down and keep you where you do not want to be in a fight which is going to 150% completely piss you off. It does not matter if you have 3 trinkets, you will not be able to escape without a peel. Your poisons of choice are Wound/Mind-Numbing applying your waylay whenever the debuff is not on the target.

Your glyphs would be - Cheapshot, Garrote, + probably Prep for kick resets/dance resets.

You do not need Initiative, your hemo/backstab/party criticals will generate more combo points then that buff will which is another reason that you confused the **** out of me putting 1 point into HaT and say its a combo point generating spec.

Bleed Spec
This spec is focus on bleed damage, so It's better to roll it with attack power stacking. If you prefer killing your enemies with bleeds, you should use this spec, Its also pretty useful against warriors and other plates.

Dude, no its not! You either want to cast bleeds or you do not, and the basic overall spec says, I do not want to bleed the target. The main problem with Sub-Ambush/Backstab rogues in TbC, was that it was not viable vs plate/mail and it could not be viable half *** specing into those skills. You either used backstab ambush or you did not.

Things were changed in WotLK, they gave sub, specifically Backstab + Ambush the ability to ignore armor, making that **** powerful and very viable, thus making old sub terrible to play unless you were playing a control rogue, hemo was not a valid skill because backstab did twice as much damage + 3rd poison proc.

I feel like you know what your talking about but at the same time I do not. You are trying to combine both of the spes but you just cant do that, you miss out on so many things that are important to either or. I could literally sit here for hours typing about both sides of the spec path but I really do not want to get that in depth.

http://wotlk.openwow.com/talent#f0xfoxZZjbfbhMdbVzArot

That is what Backstab rogues looks like. With those talents you can merc anyone, anytime, and where in 1v1, 2v2, 3v3,5v5.

You have to ask yourself, what can I kill that with in a burst? The answer is anything that is not plate or mil. Since your improved bleeds are built into that spec, it is naturally good against plate.

Then you have to ask yourself, why is plate mail so difficult? Because they are ****ing tanks and tanks are supposed to be unkillable. So you have to put your remaining points where they will be useful against your weakness. My weakness would have to be plate, mages are very simple to kill, you just have to play around and get them to use all their defensive skills and then once you do that you shadow dance.

http://wotlk.openwow.com/talent#f0xfoxZZjbfbhMdbAzAfot

So that is where I put my remaining talents, I really wish I had more to put into Filthy tricks. I see most rogues skip Master of Subtlety in favor of something elts and I just laugh, because 10% damage buff is like haha how can you not want that. Its also a shame you cant get Ghostly strike, but I suppose you could just take 1 point out of Relentless Strikes in favor of more defense.

Your stat focus for the backstab build, would be Crit > AP > everything elts.
Your burst relies on crit, I remember hitting 80% crit back on live and literally nothing like the feeling of 5-6 ambushes crit in a row. However your backstab crits are what are crucial making crit the most highly valuable stat a sub rogue could ask for.
AP is next, due to increased Rupture + Garrote damage.

When you fight plate you usually always want to open Garrote + Rupture. Applying both of those bleed effects will be #1 Priority when fighting. You do not want to open up with your Shadow Dance, as most plate/mail are tank and will just pop their defensive/parry cooldowns making you waste your cooldown. This is why you open dual bleed, getting them down to half health making them burst their cds and then you vanish/reset. Any other way will not work.

I would like to note, that under your arena partners, a Death Knight would have to be one of the most underrated partners a rogue could ask for, specifically one who knows how to shut down a healer with +exceptional skills, as that will be your focus for fights.

For those of you who look for a little more excitement in your arena groups, I would suggest the following -

Rogue + DK
Rogue + BM Hunter
Rogue + Rogue

Rogue + DK + BM Hunter
Rogue + DK + Ret Paladin
Rogue + DK + Warrior
Rogue + Hunter + Ret Paladin
Rogue + Hunter + Warrior
Rogue + Rogue + DK
Rogue (control rogue) + Rogue + BM Hunter
Rogue (control rogue) + Rogue + Ret Paladin
Rogue (control rogue) + Rogue + Warrior

Anyone can go into arena in 2v2 or 3v3 with a Healer comp and get to 2k rating. The fights last for 5-10 minutes and the good ones are over in 30 seconds. It gives you time to fix your mess ups, oh well did not get the kill this round of cds, lets wait another 3 minutes and try again.

Those who can go into fight with 3 dps and win requires much more skill and coordination as fights will be over within moments.