Cataclysm [Guide] Combat Rogue PvE

[RyuIsaCookie]

Good luck with that, but you should stop telling people they should do what you're doing because you do it, since it doesn't have much weight in reality, and it certainly doesn't offer the best possible dps for a Combat Rogue. New ppl always scour these guides and offering bad info is the worst thing one could do.

Actually Im advising people based on the experience I gained since molten cata was opened. Ive consulted with other players too so its not just my point of view. For once listen to people who have actually tested on molten what works best and and dont dismiss their advices just like that. Nobody payed much attention when we said mastery was better than haste until they tested it themselves and saw it was true. I say it again - stop following blindly retail guides which "dont have much weight" here.

[Justicerr]

Good luck with that, but you should stop telling people they should do what you're doing because you do it, since it doesn't have much weight in reality, and it certainly doesn't offer the best possible dps for a Combat Rogue. New ppl always scour these guides and offering bad info is the worst thing one could do.

Using Rupture in your rotation, you're relying too much on other classes' debuffs which makes it extremely situational, and even with all those required debuffs, rupture still won't make a noticeable difference in dps. And there is another thing. Having another spell that you need to constantly watch and keep up on the target, makes a larger room for errors. And one mistake in your rotation because of this can cost you a lot of dps.
So that's why my personal choice is a ruptureless rotation - it's easier, it's safer, and imho it does more dps.


PS: I promised a screenshot from magmaw 25 today but sadly last week's BWD25 ID didn't reset due to a Molten bug obviously(which happens a lot the past few weeks) and the Magmaw encounter was not available.

[Griefel]

Actually Im advising people based on the experience I gained since molten cata was opened. Ive consulted with other players too so its not just my point of view. For once listen to people who have actually tested on molten what works best and and dont dismiss their advices just like that. Nobody payed much attention when we said mastery was better than haste until they tested it themselves and saw it was true. I say it again - stop following blindly retail guides which "dont have much weight" here.

Yeah but your tests have nothing legit in them, most people in this thread do tests on dummies in orgrimmar, with no regard to how buffs or their gear influence their dps, with absolutely no math or any idea how Mastery works exactly, and no real way of determining that either.

I am currently the top dps in my guild in most raids, and even if that doesn't mean much, I am geared using retail stat weights and they are made by people that are smarter than both you and me so in my opinion you should not dismiss them so easily.

@Soulseeker: Well Combat w/o Rupture seems incredibly boring to me, even more boring than playing a Fury Warrior(which I've been for around 2 years before coming to Molten), so even if someone makes some real testing to determine it's actually a dps loss in most situations, I will prolly still do it for this reason.

[Justicerr]

Yeah but your tests have nothing legit in them, most people in this thread do tests on dummies in orgrimmar, with no regard to how buffs or their gear influence their dps, with absolutely no math or any idea how Mastery works exactly, and no real way of determining that either.

I am currently the top dps in my guild in most raids, and even if that doesn't mean much, I am geared using retail stat weights and they are made by people that are smarter than both you and me so in my opinion you should not dismiss them so easily.

You are top dps not because you're using retail stat prioritising, but because combat rogues benefit too much from bugs here on Molten. Understand that.



There. That's from a Maloriak 25 attempt. See the difference between a rogue that obeys to Molten's bugged stat prioritising, and a rogue that follows Retail stat prioritising. Case closed.

[Griefel]

You are top dps not because you're using retail stat prioritising, but because combat rogues benefit too much from bugs here on Molten. Understand that.

How does this make sense to you? Even if most of my damage would come from bugs, I would need to gear accordingly to take most advantage of those bugs. I doubt I would be top dps with random gear on me, no matter how much I abuse bugs.
At the same time remember most other classes gear for bugs also.

There. That's from a Maloriak 25 attempt. See the difference between a rogue that obeys to Molten's bugged stat prioritising, and a rogue that follows Retail stat prioritising. Case closed.

This is what I mean by tests of no relevance, there is no gear difference between you and him? At 10k dps difference I doubt it, and then you test on Maloriak, he could easily not have had time to dps the adds in the Green Vial phase, and you prolly got in a full KS and maybe some AR, or he could be using AR at the wrong time, or he could be doing Tricks of the Trade on you, and you not on him.
Generally every fight that has some dps increase in it(Maloriak, Magmaw, etc) is really bad at making any kind of real testing, because if he even skips a few seconds of the burn phase he loses way to much overall dps. The only reliable conclusion u can draw from that screen is that he does things worse than you, but not what exactly those things are.

[dominitian]

How does this make sense to you? Even if most of my damage would come from bugs, I would need to gear accordingly to take most advantage of those bugs. I doubt I would be top dps with random gear on me, no matter how much I abuse bugs.
At the same time remember most other classes gear for bugs also.




This is what I mean by tests of no relevance, there is no gear difference between you and him? At 10k dps difference I doubt it, and then you test on Maloriak, he could easily not have had time to dps the adds in the Green Vial phase, and you prolly got in a full KS and maybe some AR, or he could be using AR at the wrong time, or he could be doing Tricks of the Trade on you, and you not on him.
Generally every fight that has some dps increase in it(Maloriak, Magmaw, etc) is really bad at making any kind of real testing, because if he even skips a few seconds of the burn phase he loses way to much overall dps. The only reliable conclusion u can draw from that screen is that he does things worse than you, but not what exactly those things are.

actually the ONLY time is worth using rupture in ur rotations is in 25 man raids because lots of debuffs and bleeds but is not a big dps increase (2 k more maybe)
in 10 man raids or in rdf is not worth it

[taralej]

Hello everyone! I'm back, I've checked all the posts and I'm going to address those that seem most relevant to the topic.

Got any screens on these tests anywhere? If you are correct about BG and RB then indeed what you claim is correct, but if any of them is working Rupture is still better with mangle equiv up.

Rupture DOES work with BG, as your next post stated. Apparently, I just did a huge typo. Rupture does NOT work with RB and RvS. I have tested these, trust me! I need to actually make videos in order to show legit results, so simple SSes won't do. Because of the first one, Rupture hampers your overall rotation, since it doesn't reduce the CDs of AR & KS. Because of the second, Rupture's damage gets decreased by a whopping 35% (assuming you use RvS on every finisher).

I never get energy starved, regeneration is sick even with low haste.

Yesterday I regemmed & reforged all my agility & haste to Mastery and my DPS on the TD dropped from 12k to 11k. I also suffered energy starvation throughout half of my testing.

There is a small error here, it doesn't always work this way(I have only noticed it like 1-2 times) the rest of the time I go the bug up no matter what I do until I log off.

Yes, I have noticed that there is something wrong with that bug. I am currently trying to figure out what resets it, so that I can properly update my Bug report (in case they haven't deleted it, someone mentioned that the Redirect + SS bug has already been reported twice)

Using Rupture in your rotation, you're relying too much on other classes' debuffs which makes it extremely situational, and even with all those required debuffs, rupture still won't make a noticeable difference in dps.

I beg to differ here. Blizzard made Arms a desirable PvE spec absolutely on purpose and they've even stated that they don't want Feral druids being assigned for every raid only because of Mangle. Having said that, the raid debuffs are there almost all the time. Rupture scales very well with attack power, ignores armor and each tick can crit - these 3 advantages have always made Rupture better than Eviscerate, even more now when ArP is gone. The problem is that Rupture is too bugged (bad way) to be of any use on Molten, so yes, on Molten it is not worth using it.

And there is another thing. Having another spell that you need to constantly watch and keep up on the target, makes a larger room for errors. And one mistake in your rotation because of this can cost you a lot of dps.

Saying that one way is better than the other because it's easier really makes you sound bad, no offense, of course. Combat has only SnD and Rupture to watch for anyway.

There. That's from a Maloriak 25 attempt. See the difference between a rogue that obeys to Molten's bugged stat prioritising, and a rogue that follows Retail stat prioritising. Case closed.

Could you please post your stats prior to the fight? A SS would be sufficient, I guess. Indeed 29k on 4.0.x is unreal and I think it is more than clear that Combat has a huge leverage over other classes on Molten as of PvE.

Also, I'd like to beckon all of you to check the bug reports that I've posted in the lowest section of the Guide and upvote them.

@Griefel & Stellar Thank you for the support so far. You've been great help to me.

@Soulsseeker I don't want to fight with you over the Internet like we're some kids. Help me and I will improve the guide. Regarding expertise, even after you get capped, Parry still exists, because of boss mechanics, so you should always be behind your target. If Parry doesn't exist on Molten PvE, it doesn't necessarily make Expertise a less valuable stat, it just means that you can safely attack the target from the front ("safely" is a relative term when it comes to standing infront of a boss). Parry is eliminated by attacking from the back anyway. Also, as far as I understood, the bug with MG is that it procs itself, right?

peace^^

[Justicerr]

This is what I mean by tests of no relevance, there is no gear difference between you and him? At 10k dps difference I doubt it, and then you test on Maloriak, he could easily not have had time to dps the adds in the Green Vial phase, and you prolly got in a full KS and maybe some AR, or he could be using AR at the wrong time, or he could be doing Tricks of the Trade on you, and you not on him.
Generally every fight that has some dps increase in it(Maloriak, Magmaw, etc) is really bad at making any kind of real testing, because if he even skips a few seconds of the burn phase he loses way to much overall dps. The only reliable conclusion u can draw from that screen is that he does things worse than you, but not what exactly those things are.

No, there is no gear difference between us, and we were both constantly on the boss, but I'm not gonna explain boss tactics to you. You could just have checked our gear in the armory. And what exactly is the "dps increase" part of Maloriak? rofl.

I am getting tired of these useless posts, me and Stellar are giving you explanations AND proofs how to increase your dps, it's your choice whether to listen to us and try it out or to blindly follow retail guides. And I couldn't possibly care less what your choice is.


@taralej
We already provided you will all the information you need, I am not going to explain the same things over and over again, do some proper testing by yourself for once maybe.

[taralej]

Melee
Damage: 0 - 0
Speed: 0
Power: 0
Hit Rating: 2854791690
Crit Chance: 0%
Expertise: 0

Armory isn't helping me

...and neither are you.

I am working and I cannot play WoW and test stuff 24/7. As you see, I can and I am pretty active on the forums though, which is why I asked you for assistance. Thank you very much for providing it... :rolleyes:

Edit: I calculated a 2037 mastery rating. Where is your neck?

[Justicerr]

I am working and I cannot play WoW and test stuff 24/7. As you see, I can and I am pretty active on the forums though, which is why I asked you for assistance. Thank you very much for providing it... :rolleyes:

You can't throw a guide out there when you're not testing out everything in it that you said works "100% correctly". It just makes you look like you just seek attention.

edit:

here, you can probably guess what all items are exactly. I recently bought Don Rodrigo's neck, so neck is epic now. back, wrist, shoulders, gloves and boots are blue.

PS: I got exactly 0 items gotten from raids apart from Fang of Twilight MH, but before that I was using Claws of Torment, so not much difference there. All other epics are BoE, from reputations or from Valor points. That being said, you don't even need to have raided at all to do my dps if you know how to play/gem/reforge properly.

[taralej]

@Soulsseeker Thanks for the SS. Appreciated.

I found something very interesting:

According to this screenshot (it happens to be Griefel, lol), the Rogue has a (1196/9659)*100=12.38% proc chance on his MG with with 15.85 Mastery.



The screenshot is from the following thread:

http://forum.molten-wow.com/showthre...=5#post1409431

Could you please give us something that shows MG proccing too much or from itself? You have to understand that currently I am trying my best to find a solid proof that Mastery>Haste. Bug reports, screenshots (appreciated Stellar's) etc so that I can edit my guide and fix it.

Thanks!

[Justicerr]

[taralej]

Holy mother of mastery! O.o

Edited the guide. Added you as credited. Thanks for the support! I will make a MG and a RvS + Rup report as soon as I'm able to do tests.

[Yodoran]

Ok keep your rupture up while i hit 45-50k eviscerates. Seems fair deal.

Rupture is only a DPS loss because it isn't affected by Revealing Strike, and if this worked you must have mangle active for it to be a dps gain.

[taralej]

Rupture is only a DPS loss because it isn't affected by Revealing Strike, and if this worked you must have mangle active for it to be a dps gain.

Also, since it isn't affected by Restless Blades, it indirectly hampers affects your rotation. And don't forget about Trauma :D PvE Arms is pretty popular in Cata.