1. [Guide] Combat PvE

    Hello, everyone! My name is Ross aka taralej. I've been playing on Warmane since 2010, and rogue and warrior are my two favorite classes. Here, I will present a comprehensive...

    Combat PvE Rogue Guide


    Contents:
    1. Stat caps
    2. Early Combat spec and play style
    3. Late Combat spec and play style
    4. BiS list
    5. Enchants, Gems & Professions
    6. FAQ & Tips
    7. Bug Section


    Abbreviations:
    CP - Combo Point
    SS - Sinister Strike
    FoK - Fan of Knives
    SnD - Slice and Dice
    Evi - Eviscerate
    Rup - Rupture
    AR - Adrenaline Rush
    BF - Blade Flurry
    KS - Killing Spree
    TotT - Tricks of the Trade
    IP - Instant Poison
    DP - Deadly Poison
    AoE - Area of Effect
    Go# - Glyph of #

    1. Stat caps

    Hit Rating. - Short answer: 9% from gear.

    Long answer: you get 5% from Precision, 3% from Misery/ Imp FF, +9% from gear = 17%, which hits the poison cap. The specials cap (Sinister Strike, finishers, Killing Spree) is 8%, which means Precision +3% from gear. The dual wield cap is 27%, which is unreachable.

    Expertise - Short answer: 21.

    Long answer: it's 21 because it's Warmane. You get 10 from Weapon Expertise, with the rest coming either from the T10 pants or the Ikfirus chest, depending which BiS list you're rolling with. Expertise reduces the chance for your attacks to get dodged or parried. Remember to always attack the boss from behind, even when capped, because expertise capping only removes the chance to get dodged, but not parried.

    Armor Penetration - Short answer: 1400.

    Long answer: ArPen is your most important secondary stat and is your main priority beyond the hit and expertise cap. It allows your attacks to bypass the enemy's armor and increases in value the more you have from it. This means that the DPS increase from 98% to 100% ArPen will be a lot higher than from 48% to 50%, for example.

    => An ArP trinket is a <must-have> for anyone starting Combat. When it procs, it causes your attacks to almost fully ignore the opponent's armor if you are already ArP-soft-capped. This is a list of the 3 pre-ICC ArP-proc trinkets:
    -Mjolnir Runestone (Ulduar, vote);
    -Needle-encrusted Scorpion (FoS Hc);
    -Grim Toll (Naxx25).


    2. Early Combat spec and play style

    <THIS> is the high Rupture talent build you should be using as a Combat PvE in early gear levels (see below for more info)

    Comparing low Rupture to high Rupture: explained shortly, high Rupture means you're trying to keep a Rupture uptime as high as possible, even using SS at 5 combo points, waiting for the last seconds of Rupture in order to reapply it. Low Rupture means you are using 5 CP Rupture on the target, prioritizing it over Eviscerate, but without wasting combo points. In essence, low Rupture means that if you are at 5 CP and are about to get energy capped before Rupture fades, then use Eviscerate.

    "So why should I use Rupture as Combat instead of just spamming Eviscerate?" - short answer: because you don't have enough ArP yet to make Evi worth spamming. Until you get there, Rupture will be higher on your list.

    "So which one should I use - high Rupture or low Rupture?" - high Rupture should be used below ArP soft-cap, low Rupture should be used after ArP soft-cap until ArP hard-cap. At ArP hard-cap, you can start using full Evi or stay on low Rupture.

    Logically, if Rupture cannot tick for most of its damage before the enemy dies, it is better to use Eviscerate.

    There are also a lot of Set bonuses which favor Rupture. Such is the T9 Set2 Bonus - you *should* stick with the early-game Rupture build & rotation as long as you have this Set bonus, especially if you have a Feral Druid or Arms Warrior in the raid for Mangle or Trauma.

    => The glyphs you should use are Sinister Strike, Killing Spree, and Rupture. Weaker alternatives to Rupture are FoK and BF. FoK only matters on AoE fights (which don't matter) and BF is a very very minor DPS increase through higher energy efficiency.


    3. Late Combat spec and play style

    Once you get ArP capped there are two paths before you - either stick with low Rupture or go full Eviscerate. Low Rupture pulls very slightly ahead of full Evi. The reason: both abilities have similar damage, even at ArP cap, but Rupture does reliable damage ticks, which go in line with your crit % chance. Evi on the other hand might or might not crit. If Evi doesn't crit, then it's a sure DPS loss compared to Rupture, which will always get some crits on its ticks.

    <THIS> is the talent build you should be using if you decided to go for the full Eviscerate rotation.

    <THIS> is the low Rupture talent build. You can use this build at any gear level.

    => The glyphs you are going to use in a full Evi rotation are Sinister Strike, Killing Spree, and Eviscerate. Weaker alternatives to Eviscerate are FoK, BF, and TotT if you have the T10 set2 (which at this point you should).

    Opener and rotation: the best opener as Combat is TotT > pre-pot Haste (right before the pull) > 2xSS > SnD > Killing Spree > BF > AR. After that, your aim with the low Rupture cycle is to keep S&D up, keep a 5 CP Rupture rolling on the target, fill with Evi. With the Evisc only cycle your aim is to keep S&D up, fill with Evi. If you have 5 CP, S&D has less than 8-10 seconds left, and you're energy starved, you should just wait for energy cap and then refresh S&D. If instead you use Rupture/Evi in this case, you will not have enough time to refresh your S&D. The main thing to remember is that S&D must absolutely always be up.

    The energy needed to perform those moves comes from Vitality & Combat Potency. Because of that second talent, you must ALWAYS have a fast weapon in your OffHand (and a slow one in your MainHand for hard-hitting Sinister Strikes, ofcourse). Do not make the common mistake of putting a slow off-hand for higher Killing Spree. Ultimately, a slow off-hand means a great DPS loss.


    4. BiS list

    The below contains the 4set T10 Best in Slot list for Combat Rogues. Clarifications are found under the list.



    This gear will net you 1070 ArP. The remaining 330 of your ArP will come from your red gems and your favorite food.

    Details about DBW: The trinket procs 3 random stats, depending on the class. The duration is 30 seconds and the ICD of the trinket is 105 seconds. For Rogues these are the procs:
    1) Agility of the Vrykul - 700 Agility
    2) Speed of the Vrykul - 700 Haste
    3) Power of the Taunka - 1400 AP

    What you should ALWAYS keep in mind when upgrading and changing gear is stats balance - never lose your Hit & Exp cap and try not to sacrifice ArP unless the upgrade is too big. The reason I am saying this is because you can easily get ArP capped before BiS, but a lot of people make the mistake of sacrificing crucial stats in order to do so, and then come here asking why their DPS is so low. Always balance your stats!


    5. Enchants



    Gems

    Your best friend here is Fractured Cardinal Ruby (Fractured Dragon's Eye if you have JC). You're going to stack these gems on every gem socket until you reach the 1400 ArP cap. Going for the high end BiS list, you'll find that you may go over the ArP cap. In these cases Glinting Ametrine is what you will want to use in your yellow sockets. The extra hit will help reduce misses from auto-attacks and poisons and is the best choice you have, considering you're already expertise and ArP capped. Your meta gem will be Relentless Earthsiege Diamond. You will want to put a Nightmare Tear on your gear in order to activate the meta gem. The best place from the BiS list where you can put it is the blue socket on the belt - this will activate the socket bonus and award the highest possible stats you can have with the BiS gear. If not BiS geared, search for another blue socket on an item you won't be replacing soon and where the socket bonus is significant and worth gemming for. Don't just blindly put it on your extra belt socket because you saw X amount of people doing so...

    Professions

    In case you want to really squeeze the maximum out of your character, you will also want to pick the best professions when it comes to DPS. There are two ways you can proceed here - the passive stats and the procs & enchants.

    The best choice for passive stats is Jewelcrafting + Blacksmithing. This will give you access to 3 jewelcrafter-only ArP gems and two extra sockets for your bracers and gloves.

    The best choice for procs & enchants is Tailoring + Engineering. This will give you the haste-on-use on gloves and the attack power proc on cloak.

    Both choices are pretty close to one another, with the second choice being slightly better IF you can take full advantage of it.


    6. Frequently Asked Questions:

    1) So which is better for PvE - Combat or Assassination? - In the general case, in a motionless tank'n'spank fight Assassination will slightly outperform Combat (considering same gear & skill levels). However, a lot of raid fights require movement, target switching & interacting. This is where Assassination's flaw is - changing targets, losing the 5xDP stacks and the Envenom buff results in a massive DPS drop for Assassination. And this is where Combat shines - it does not rely on DP as much as Assassination, it doesn't have a short-time buff to keep up (Envenom), so everything you have to do in a dynamic fight is just to make sure you have SnD up & continue spamming SS... And then, of course, we have personal preferences - if you like Combat more than Assassination, don't ask which of the 2 you should play if you already have the answer in your head :)

    2) What kind of weapons should I use and which poison goes to which weapon? - Ideally, a slow sword/axe in your main hand and a fast sword/axe in your off-hand. IP should go to the slow weapon and DP should go to the fast weapon. The reason for the fast off-hand is that after DP gets 5 stacks it starts proccing the other poison when it is refreshed, and also because of Combat Potency.


    => Killing Spree
    KSpree is your highest burst ability and Combat's signature move. The best way to use it is after the initial opening with TotT > 2x SS > SnD. This will yield you massive burst damage and threat for the tank. After that, simply use it on cooldown.

    => Blade Flurry
    BF is a short-cd (2min) skill which increases your attack speed by 20% and grants you the same effect as Sweeping Strikes, allowing your attacks to strike a nearby target in Melee range as well. Activating BF means you get a short DPS boost right away since Auto Attacks are Combat's main source of damage. However, there are some smart ways to use BF. The skill works very well in conjunction with KSpree and Fan of Knives. Combining it with KSpree when attacking 2 nearby targets in Melee range will result in doubling the effect of KSpree. Combine BF with FoK and activate Adrenaline Rush before that and you will get the most insane AoE damage in the whole game for the duration of BF and AR.

    => Weapon Specialization
    Weapon specialization depends mainly on what type are your current best weapons in possession. Of course, there are some general things that should be mentioned about Weapon Specialization.
    - Mace Spec - good if you are in a hurry to reach the ArP hard-cap.
    - CQC - crit is always nice, but not as nice as H&S
    - H&S - the general talent of choice, H&S is unrelated to ArP or crit - it just grants you an extra hit... which can proc poisons & crit. H&S is the best choice for weapon specialization.


    7. Bugs & the consequences:


    1) Expertise is bugged and you only need 21 expertise vs bosses in order to not get any dodges when attacking from behind. (https://www.warmane.com/bugtracker/report/17237)

    I will update this Guide as often as possible.
    I will appreciate all kinds of constructive criticism, mistakes & friendly On-Topic discussions!
    Peace^^

    Information sources:
    - http://web.archive.org/web/201405112...-updated-2310/
    - http://web.archive.org/web/201405112...pdated-for-33/
    Edited: July 2, 2018

  2. Cheaptrix's Avatar
    Cheaptrix
    Guest
    Envenoms as combat eh? Interesting lol!

    Pretty good guide man. I am not a PvE guy so I could not tell if this was 100% correct tho.

  3. => The glyphs you are going to use. Again GoSS and also GoEvisc
    You keep saying eviscerate is bugged and we should use envenom instead, yet you say we should glyph eviscerate.

    Mind = blown

  4. you will gem for agility instead of ap/arp as long as you aint going for arp and aint crit capped .

  5. You keep saying eviscerate is bugged and we should use envenom instead, yet you say we should glyph eviscerate.

    Mind = blown
    You *did* notice this is referring to the end-game build, right? You *will* use Eviscerate regardless of it being bugged in the end-game, because the loss of the 5xDP would be too great now and because you are ArP-capped. Eviscerate is in the Bug Tracker, is listed as Confirmed and *will* get fixed.

    I guess you missed the part in the beginning of my Guide where I mentioned that the fact that Eviscerate is still bugged was the reason I postponed this Guide for so long. Now if you don't have anything helpful to suggest - shut up!
    ---------------------------------
    Envenoms as combat eh? Interesting lol!

    Pretty good guide man. I am not a PvE guy so I could not tell if this was 100% correct tho.
    I'm just gonna give out a quick fact:

    ICC

    Envenom - 15k crit (3/3 Vile Poisons)
    Eviscerate - 8k crit (3/3 Imp Evi, 5/5 Aggression)

    Same gear in both cases

    End of discussion...
    ---------------------------------
    you will gem for agility instead of ap/arp as long as you aint going for arp and aint crit capped .
    Combat does not benefit from criticals in any way, unlike Assassination (Focused Attacks). I am excluding special attacks criticals (Seal Fate vs GoSS). Also, have in mind that Prey on the Weak is bugged at the moment. Thus gemming for Agility, although being a totally valid option, is not recommended, especially having in mind Savage Combat. I don't think the bonus to Armor & Dodge are taken into consideration here.

  6. Artoodetoo's Avatar
    Artoodetoo
    Guest
    You *did* notice this is referring to the end-game build, right? You *will* use Eviscerate regardless of it being bugged in the end-game, because the loss of the 5xDP would be too great now and because you are ArP-capped. Eviscerate is in the Bug Tracker, is listed as Confirmed and *will* get fixed.

    I guess you missed the part in the beginning of my Guide where I mentioned that the fact that Eviscerate is still bugged was the reason I postponed this Guide for so long. Now if you don't have anything helpful to suggest - shut up!
    ---------------------------------


    I'm just gonna give out a quick fact:

    ICC

    Envenom - 15k crit (3/3 Vile Poisons)
    Eviscerate - 7k crit (3/3 Imp Evi, 5/5 Aggression)

    Same gear in both cases

    End of discussion...
    ---------------------------------


    Combat does not benefit from criticals in any way, unlike Assassination (Focused Attacks). I am excluding special attacks criticals (Seal Fate vs GoSS). Thus gemming for Agility, although being a totally valid option, is not recommended, especially having in mind Savage Combat. I don't think the bonus to Armor & Dodge are taken into consideration here.


    Don't leave out the Deadly poison ticks you lost while building up the stack, and the potential Instant poisons you could've procced from OH. The IP procs should easily replace the 8k damage loss imo.

    And crit does benefit Combat A LOT, *cough* Prey on the Weak *cough*. Although it's currently bugged

  7. And crit does benefit Combat A LOT, *cough* Prey on the Weak *cough*. Although it's currently bugged
    i lol'd pretty hard here...

    --------------------------------------
    i am not sure the poisons actually make up for the less damage eviscerate does at this gear level with such low ap regardless of the ap gemming & chanting and my Recount agrees with me too...

    stop thinking like assassination rogues pls and bear in mind that this *early-game* build was the most common build @ uldu patch. thanks! (yes, DP wasn't buffed at that time, combats were freely wasting the 5xDP ticks and were topping the meters, have in mind HfB was still not nerfed)

  8. Artoodetoo's Avatar
    Artoodetoo
    Guest
    Don't lol me, you edited your post after seeing my argument about Prey on the Weak, you completely forgot about that.

  9. Don't lol me, you edited your post after seeing my argument about Prey on the Weak, you completely forgot about that.
    does it matter when its not valid this way or another?

  10. Artoodetoo's Avatar
    Artoodetoo
    Guest
    It matters, you were spreading untrue information regarding Crit for combat rogues, without providing argument about Prey on the Weak being bugged, until I proved you otherwise.

  11. Also, in the end of my Guide I mentioned:

    "I will appreciate all kinds of constructive criticism, mistakes & friendly On-Topic discussions!"

    Thanks!

  12. Artoodetoo's Avatar
    Artoodetoo
    Guest
    I have managed to keep friendly tones so far, even after you saying to me
    "i lol'd pretty hard here..."

    I criticized you, you edited your post saving yourself some face, you lol'd at me, way to go. Internet argument is silly, I'm outta here. And you're welcome.

  13. I laughed because you mentioned I was wrong because a talent, about which you said yourself it doesn't work, changes it all... which just sounds stupid & funny by itself.

    I edited the post only to make it clear to everyone else, it wasn't mandatory and to be honest I was wondering if I should edit it at all, because since most of the rogue community knows that the talent doesnt work, it's pointless mentioning those things whatsoever... Nevertheless you can see a neat & clean "Bugs & consequences" section in the end of the Guide now - thanks to you again!

    And bye...

  14. Artoodetoo's Avatar
    Artoodetoo
    Guest
    Well, I was merely pointing the obvious (Combat rogues in general, not bugged ones like it is in Molten), you probably missed Prey on the Weak and you're not to blame. All in all, good guide, could use a better formatting. Also the really contrasting font size and color can prove to be a little difficult to read. You could maybe split it like this:

    1. Early 80 guide
    a. Guide catering to the current status in Molten
    b. Guide when everything becomes ideal
    2. Endgame 80 guide
    a. Guide catering to the current status in Molten
    b. Guide when everything becomes ideal

  15. I'm just gonna give out a quick fact:

    ICC

    Envenom - 15k crit (3/3 Vile Poisons)
    Eviscerate - 8k crit (3/3 Imp Evi, 5/5 Aggression)

    Same gear in both cases

    End of discussion...
    8k eviscerate crit in icc? the ****, I do more than that self buffed on the heroic dummy...
    Are you a wizard?

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