Common mistake and misconception about Arms Warrior PVE

[StatTrak]

This post is complete bull**** anyway. Author claims lots but cannot back anything up. Read it with caution.

[Urmomdotcom]

Welcome to say which part is bull**** then.

I don’t really want to claim a lot as I can prove it with fact.
I still looking for an arms warrior in the server to compare, Quimby.
For now I only saw Genepool from Mirage and Redpanda from Bloodlust, or also Yukarg from Yikes.

I don’t have time for detail prove now. I can update when needed.

[StatTrak]

Brutally. But whatever, DST is good for Arms. Claiming otherwise without backing evidence seems fair. Dst has better values for arms than brooch or tsunami. The haste does not **** up your rotation at all, just makes it faster = more swings for a short period of time. Dst has good uptime unlike tsunami.

Besides, brooch and tsunami are **** compared to shard / solarians, but doesn't change the fact that DST is still better for arms dps than brooch (if you got it).

What is your arguement?

[Clinda]

Let start by assuming everyone knows that the arms PVE rotation is simple as just:
(Repeat) Auto, Slam, MS, Auto, Slam, WW, Auto, Slam, MS, Auto, Slam, Free GCD (Repeat)

1. Slam should always be the top damage percentage
The first most common mistake did by most arms warrior is just they never follow the rotation
If you have a slam always follows after the auto, counting by critical multiplier, glancing and even ability calculation, there is no way that you can have auto damage higher than slam overall in fight.

2. DST is just the most horrible choice of trinket for Arms Warrior
If you find a DST in an Arms Warrior, unless he don't even have Bloodlust Brooch from BOJ vendor, you knows that he don't know how to play the spec. (Which I doubt you get DST before it.)

The above two points is the easiest fact that you can know if the guy know how to play Arms.

Basic Improvement:
1. Never overuse Heroic Strike, it is the most risky ability in the rotation but yield only a few gain.
2. Never reset auto timer after 0.5s with slam.
3. During fast swing speed, understand when slam should be used in the rotation. Don't just simply use Heroic Strike during lust.
4. The ability ratio of Slam-MS-WW, should always be 4-2-1. If your number is not close to it, you have done something wrong during your rotation.
5. Never use execute unless the boss die before the next auto, over 60 rage and your MS is on CD.

The DPS that Arms is able to do in some BT boss under T6 gear (Enhance, Retri, Rogue, Warrior, Warrior):

1. High Warlord Naj'entus (ONE BLOODLUST):
Record Run DPS: 2107 (https://legacyplayers.com/Raids/View...upl=3473&exp=1)
Typical Run DPS: 2022 (https://legacyplayers.com/Raids/View...?id=3079&exp=1)
Average Run DPS: 1850-2050

2. Teron Gorefiend (ONE BLOODLUST):
Record Run DPS: 2584 (https://legacyplayers.com/Raids/View...upl=3477&exp=1)
Typical Run DPS: 2379 (https://legacyplayers.com/Raids/View...?id=3215&exp=1)
Average Run DPS: 2150-2350

3. Mother Shahraz (TWO BLOODLUST):
Record Run DPS: 2125 (https://legacyplayers.com/Raids/View...upl=3486&exp=1)
Typical Run DPS: 1965 (https://legacyplayers.com/Raids/View...?id=2705&exp=1)
Average Run DPS: 1800-2000

3. Brutallus (TWO BLOODLUST):
First Run DPS: 2029 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=Vc9ZxFvnk9U)
Should be around 2200, however I get burn and stayed defensive stance for 15s. Unlucky.

Those are the DPS that Arms should be capable of and aiming for.
Surely, the DPS while farming BT is not important.
However, the DPS requirement in Sunwell will be higher and many should prepare for it.

3. During fast swing speed, understand when slam should be used in the rotation. Don't just simply use Heroic Strike during lust.

please elaborate

[Urmomdotcom]

Brutally. But whatever, DST is good for Arms. Claiming otherwise without backing evidence seems fair. Dst has better values for arms than brooch or tsunami. The haste does not **** up your rotation at all, just makes it faster = more swings for a short period of time. Dst has good uptime unlike tsunami.

Besides, brooch and tsunami are **** compared to shard / solarians, but doesn't change the fact that DST is still better for arms dps than brooch (if you got it).

What is your arguement?

Just finished settling some IRL stuff. Sorry for late response.

1. With DST and drum, the weapon swing of cats edge become 2.4s, which is faster than the gcd allowed, therefore, 0.1s will be wasted there.
2. With how weapon swing immediately react with weapon speed change, it will be so easy to mistime slam at the first and last swing proc from DST, which result with smaller dps increase.
3. There is some min-maxing around slam which is better to have weapon at 2.7s swing speed, not exactly 2.5s

3. During fast swing speed, understand when slam should be used in the rotation. Don't just simply use Heroic Strike during lust.

please elaborate

The rotation just change from a static auto-slam-x, to an non-static one that you need to play around slam, gcd and swing speed.
It is important to remember slam must always better be casted within 0.3s after the swing even after bl.
However, so many arms here just cannot handle the non-static rotation here.

[Clinda]

Just finished settling some IRL stuff. Sorry for late response.

1. With DST and drum, the weapon swing of cats edge become 2.4s, which is faster than the gcd allowed, therefore, 0.1s will be wasted there.
2. With how weapon swing immediately react with weapon speed change, it will be so easy to mistime slam at the first and last swing proc from DST, which result with smaller dps increase.
3. There is some min-maxing around slam which is better to have weapon at 2.7s swing speed, not exactly 2.5s



The rotation just change from a static auto-slam-x, to an non-static one that you need to play around slam, gcd and swing speed.
It is important to remember slam must always better be casted within 0.3s after the swing even after bl.
However, so many arms here just cannot handle the non-static rotation here.

Yeah, well, I was doing around 2k dps on brutallus yasterday, and was wondering when to time the slam on haste potion/bl.
My rotation during bloodlust is usually somewhat of this auto slam x auto y auto slam x

[Lulleh]

Who are you in game anyway? Besides, according to all values DST is better than Brooch, Tsunami. Haste proc is really good because it works like a mini bloodlust but doesn't **** up your rotation. If you claim something to be bad, can you back it up with any evidence? Why is it bad? Can't claim stuff without saying why it is that way...

Claiming anyone who use it a noob kinda makes you noob.

Also arms warrior playstyle varies a lot from person to person. Coming from a warr that has played end game on this server as arms.

I suppose you're referring to this sheet here? https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...Ppba6tQJkkQ9M/

Yes, DST is listed higher than the other items but those weights are not dynamic in the abscence of a proper Landsoul sheet so putting it into a real scenario things changes, when BL, Drums etc are on. I'm by no means an expert on Arms but I'd assume the DST's extra Haste would bring the Swing timer down too low so Slams won't benefit and instead of being a gain it'd be a loss in the long run.

As far Dual Wielding, I've heard some say it'd be worth to use for Execute when there's a lot of movement thus Slam can't be used anyways but then there's the low hit to be taken into account so I don't know if it's worth or not, guess same could be said about DST, although I can't think of a fight where there's constant movement allowing for 0 Slams.

Also, calling the thread BS and using your own "end game" experience as a reference is kinda vague... especially since you're hiding behind a forum name that has no association with who you are in-game. Suppose I don't an introduction but I can say I've yet to play with a better Arms Warrior than the OP.

[spraynard]

Our (t6 BiS) arms warrior, who is also a very strong player, thinks DST is trash for arms. So that's more weight behind that theory.

[Yukarg]

Brutally. But whatever, DST is good for Arms. Claiming otherwise without backing evidence seems fair. Dst has better values for arms than brooch or tsunami. The haste does not **** up your rotation at all, just makes it faster = more swings for a short period of time. Dst has good uptime unlike tsunami.

Besides, brooch and tsunami are **** compared to shard / solarians, but doesn't change the fact that DST is still better for arms dps than brooch (if you got it).

What is your arguement?

I suppose you're referring to this sheet here? https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...Ppba6tQJkkQ9M/

Yes, DST is listed higher than the other items but those weights are not dynamic in the abscence of a proper Landsoul sheet so putting it into a real scenario things changes, when BL, Drums etc are on. I'm by no means an expert on Arms but I'd assume the DST's extra Haste would bring the Swing timer down too low so Slams won't benefit and instead of being a gain it'd be a loss in the long run.

As far Dual Wielding, I've heard some say it'd be worth to use for Execute when there's a lot of movement thus Slam can't be used anyways but then there's the low hit to be taken into account so I don't know if it's worth or not, guess same could be said about DST, although I can't think of a fight where there's constant movement allowing for 0 Slams.

Also, calling the thread BS and using your own "end game" experience as a reference is kinda vague... especially since you're hiding behind a forum name that has no association with who you are in-game. Suppose I don't an introduction but I can say I've yet to play with a better Arms Warrior than the OP.

DST is not really a good trinket for arms when you consider that your flurry uptime should be ideally as close to 100% as possible. Most weapon swing timers with flurry end up at 3.0 or 3.1 with 3/5 flurry alone. After you add drums of battle which should have 100% uptime with your melee team, this brings your timer down to somewhere between 2.8-3.0 depending on swing timer again. As Lulleh has correctly stated, you don't really benefit from going below a 2.5 second swing timer. When you factor in Bloodlust, you will probably hit 2.5 or just below that on your swing timer. This results in wasted haste or even worse, completely messing up your rotation when DST procs under these circumstances.

The counter-argument to this is that bloodlust is up less often than DST, which is true. DST can be situationally O.K. for arms warriors that don't plan on getting bloodlust in earlier gear levels. But in the current progression content of Sunwell, arms warriors will be given access to a few items that have haste on them, pushing their non-lust swing timers closer to the 2.5 ideal swing timer, and further reducing the already lower effectiveness of DST as a trinket.

On the whole, you're looking at a bigger gain using another trinket. Besides, if you're not using solarion's sapphire to buff your melee & using shard (BIS forever) as arms you're trolling.

[Clinda]

DST is not really a good trinket for arms when you consider that your flurry uptime should be ideally as close to 100% as possible. Most weapon swing timers with flurry end up at 3.0 or 3.1 with 3/5 flurry alone. After you add drums of battle which should have 100% uptime with your melee team, this brings your timer down to somewhere between 2.8-3.0 depending on swing timer again. As Lulleh has correctly stated, you don't really benefit from going below a 2.5 second swing timer. When you factor in Bloodlust, you will probably hit 2.5 or just below that on your swing timer. This results in wasted haste or even worse, completely messing up your rotation when DST procs under these circumstances.

The counter-argument to this is that bloodlust is up less often than DST, which is true. DST can be situationally O.K. for arms warriors that don't plan on getting bloodlust in earlier gear levels. But in the current progression content of Sunwell, arms warriors will be given access to a few items that have haste on them, pushing their non-lust swing timers closer to the 2.5 ideal swing timer, and further reducing the already lower effectiveness of DST as a trinket.

On the whole, you're looking at a bigger gain using another trinket. Besides, if you're not using solarion's sapphire to buff your melee & using shard (BIS forever) as arms you're trolling.

Just make sure that if u're using shard , unequip ur vashj belt and use another one cause expertise from talents and from shard will get you close enough to the expertise cap