Lordaeron Buffs Update

[Chuyinno]

Since last time I made an analysis some encounters were nerfed a bit, which is always good, and that made raids more enjoyable an accessible for everyone. I've been focusing on the 10 man encounters, raiding several times a week with different classes and compositions to feel some of the boss fights. Anyway, this analysis includes the 10 man versions and the discrepancies between their 25 man versions and how they were changed in the last 2 months ;)

-Lord Marrowgar-
Retail 10 nm/hc: 7M / 10.5M
Retail 25 nm/hc: 24M / 31M
Enrage: 10 minutes
Lordaeron 10 nm/hc: 12.5M (78.5% Increase) / 16M (57% Increase)
Lordaeron 25 nm/hc: 38M (58% Increase) / 47M (52% Increase)
HP Bonespikes HC: 113k in both 10/25 man
Enrage: 6 minutes

-Lady Deathwhisper-
Retail 10 nm/hc: 3M - 3.3M mana / 6M - 3.3M mana
Retail 25 nm/hc: 13.5M - 11M mana / 27M - 14M mana
Enrage: 10 minutes
Lordaeron 10 nm/hc: 9M - 4.4M mana (200% HP Increase) (33% Mana Increase) / 5M - 4.7M mana (16.5% HP Decrease) (51% Mana Increase)
Lordaeron 25 nm/hc: 18M - 15M mana (33% HP Increase) (36% Mana Increase) / 35M - 18M mana (30% HP Increase) (30% Mana Increase)
Enrage: 7 minutes

-Deathbringer Saurfang-
Retail 10 nm/hc: 9M / 12.5M
Retail 25 nm/hc: 32M / 44M
Enrage: 8 minutes
Lordaeron 10 nm/hc: 12M (33% Increase) / 13.5M (8% Increase)
Lordaeron 25 nm/hc: 41M (28% Increase) / 44M (0% Increase)
Enrage: 6 minutes

-Festergut-
Retail 10 nm/hc: 9.5M / 14M
Retail 25 nm/hc: 40.5M / 52M (28% Difference)
Enrage: 5 minutes
Lordaeron 10 nm/hc: 13.5M (42% Increase) / 18.5M (32% Increase)
Lordaeron 25 nm/hc: 54.5M (34% Increase) / 57.5M (10% Increase) (5.5% Difference)
Enrage: 5 minutes

-Rotface-
Retail 10 nm/hc: 7.5M /10.5 M
Retail 25 nm/hc: 36M / 47.5M
Lordaeron 10 nm/hc: 8.5M (13.5% Increase) / 13.5M (28% Increase)
Lordaeron 25 nm/hc: 40M (11% Increase) / 61.5M (30% Increase)

-Professor Putricide-
Retail 10 nm/hc: 9.5M / 13.5M
Retail 25 nm/hc: 42M / 50M
Enrage: 10 minutes
Lordaeron 10 nm/hc: 10.5M (10.5% Increase) /16.5M (22% Increase)
Lordaeron 25 nm/hc 46M (9.5% Increase) / 52.5M (5% Increase)
Enrage: 8 minutes

-Blood Prince Council-
Retail 10 nm/hc: 5.5M / 7.5M
Retail 25 nm/hc: 22.5M / 30.5M
Enrage: 10 minutes
Lordaeron 10 nm/hc: 8M (54.5% Increase) / 11.5M (53% Increase)
Lordaeron 25 nm/hc: 34M (51% Increase) / 41M (34% Increase)
Enrage: 6 minutes

-Blood-Queen Lana'thel-
Retail 10 nm/hc 14M / 19M
Retail 25 nm/hc: 59.5M / 71.5M
Enrage: 5:30 minutes
Lordaeron 10 nm/hc: 14M (0% Increase) / 19M (0% Increase)
Lordaeron 25 nm/hc: 59.5M (0% Increase) / 71.5M (0% Increase)
Enrage: 5 minutes

-Sindragosa-
Retail 10 nm/hc: 11M / 14M
Retail 25 nm/hc: 38.5M / 46M
Enrage: 10 minutes
Lordaeron 10 nm/hc: 11.5 (4.5% Increase) / 15.5 (10.5% Increase)
Lordaeron 25 nm/hc: 42M (9% Increase) / 48.5M (5.5% Increase)
Enrage: 7 minutes

-The Lich King-
Retail 10 nm/hc: 17.5M / 29.5M
Retail 25 nm/hc: 61.5M / 102M
Enrage: 15 minutes
Lordaeron 10 nm/hc: 19M (8.5% Increase) / 31M (5% Increase)
Lordaeron 25 nm/hc: 79M (28% Increase) / 103M (1% Increase)
Enrage: 15 minutes

[Chuyinno]

Marrowgar 10m Heroic: This is one of the hardest fights in the entire raid, and that doesn't make sense since it's the first boss. You need a team of 6.1+ average to beat the enrage timer, everybody has to prepot and push damage as much as they can and even then it dies at 5 seconds before enrage. Analyzing the numbers it has 3.5M increase for normal to heroic, just as in retail, but in normal it has a 80% hp increase from retail, which works in normal since there are no bonespikes during bonestorms, but when you couple that 3.5M increase on top of another 5.5M increase, and then taking into account bonespikes have the same hp as in the 25man heroic mode, the damage you need for this boss becomes staggering. This is one the boss fights that can become more manageable with just a HP nerf, without affecting other mechanics.

Lady Deathwhisper 25m HC: Just like other players, I've always said this encounter is overtuned in the 25 man heroic mode and after testing the 10 man version extensively I've encountered something interesting: Lady 10m HC had 6M HP in retail and it has 5M in Lordaeron. It's the only boss that has less health than in retail, but her fight is relentless despite that. Even a bad move or loss of concentration snowballs into a wipe. Adds, AoE, Death and Decay on the floor, controlled team mates, almost one shotting spirits make this an intense fight even with less hp. This fight is well tuned, requires skill and experience but is doable with a bit of practice. On the other hand the 25 man version is still a vision from hell, with 30% hp increase, just as the other hardest bosses. This boss could have retail HP and still be challenging, just as the other 0% Increase bosses (DBS, BQL, LoD) High HP coupled with so many mechanics makes it an eye-bleeding encounter.

DBS 25m HC: With the removal of the DI mechanic this encounter became a lot harder, and it didn't have a nerf to compensate as PP did. When the abomination was nerfed, oozes either lost hp or had an armor reduction nerf, because they are dying faster now, mimicking their 10 man counterparts. Before the nerf, green ooze could do 3 links before been killed, while in 10 man it did only 1, now it dies after the first link and has made the fight more enjoyable and easier for pugs. But DBS HC became a nightmare and i suspect it's because Mark of the Fallen Champion is buffed in hc mode. Its should be doing 5,700 - 6,300 splash physical damage every time Saurfang does melee damage. In 25 normal this marks are easily healed, they are doing the correct damage and, i guess, been reduced by armor, buffs and skills. You just need to heal them every now and then and everything is alright, but in HC the story is different. I've been healing these marks using Hpala, Rshaman and Rdudu and let me tell you, it certainly feels they are doing a lot more damage, even though it should be doing the same as in normal. I see the hp of marked people drop to 30%~every couple of seconds, that's a lot more than 6,300 damage affected by armor and buffs. In my opinion this fight needs a tweak in damage done by marks and runic power generated if it's meant to be overhealed now.

Fester 25 & PP 25: These encounters received nerfs and are becoming more accessible to players, and I want to congratulate the staff for it, it's a step on the right direction.

Queen 10 HC: Queen is one of the few bosses without a HP increase and is still a daunting encounter. In normal mode it can be done with 3 healers, and if everybody follow a good bite order she dies with time to spare, it can be done with 2 well-geared and experienced healers and it's even faster. But in heroic the aoe damage is so much that 3 healers is the norm (although I've heard good guilds do it with 2 healers too) but with 3 healers the damage need is too much, few times I've done this we had guys with 6.4+ gear, and boss died 2-5 seconds before enrage. I'm not sure the average guild can heal this encounter with just 2 healers, and dps demand with 3 healers may be a bit too high for most people. This encounter could do with a aoe damage reduction so it can be 2 man healed more easily, even in normal healing it with 2 guys is challenging, so in HC it just needs to be a bit more, coupled with a spriest in the first bite it could be done more often by more guilds.

Sindragosa: Since 3~ months ago I've felt she is doing less damage. I used to get 7 Unchained Magic stacks before, and be almost obliterated, now i can get 12 and still have around 15% health. Queen was nerfed this year and most guilds are farming an extra heroic mark each week, while PP & Sindy were still unreachable for most, so these PP & Sindy nerfs are a welcomed addition to the game.

These small, almost imperceptible nerfs are the best option for the server, they don't enrage the hardcore players, who don't even acknowledge them, but help a lot of guilds and pugs, which are progressing further every week. More raids made and more progress is what Lordaeron needs, so keep it up ;D

[Chuyinno]

Toravon the Ice Watcher: I kept hearing rumors that VoA had been buffed, so I joined some pugs and realized orbs are now living murdering machines. Some of the pugs took 3 wipes to kill the boss, while i kept telling everybody to get away from orbs when they are about to spawn, to kite them to the sides and RDPS to focus on them. Some other pugs dissolved after a couple of wipes, and that got me thinking, this was a fight that didn't need buffing at all. It's not a hardcore raid for guys with discord or guild runs, it's mostly done by random people, kind of a freebie once a week that anyone can do if they follow instructions. After the DI update of DBS I have seen most pugs go down from aim 6 to aim 3, and now some are even failing VoA. This has a negative impact on population numbers so I advise the staff to stop these buffs on key encounters, the common populace is not liking it one bit.

[PanofskyII]

Toravon the Ice Watcher: I kept hearing rumors that VoA had been buffed, so I joined some pugs and realized orbs are now living murdering machines. Some of the pugs took 3 wipes to kill the boss, while i kept telling everybody to get away from orbs when they are about to spawn, to kite them to the sides and RDPS to focus on them. Some other pugs dissolved after a couple of wipes, and that got me thinking, this was a fight that didn't need buffing at all. It's not a hardcore raid for guys with discord or guild runs, it's mostly done by random people, kind of a freebie once a week that anyone can do if they follow instructions. After the DI update of DBS I have seen most pugs go down from aim 6 to aim 3, and now some are even failing VoA. This has a negative impact on population numbers so I advise the staff to stop these buffs on key encounters, the common populace is not liking it one bit.

Please, someone listen to this guy. I can't understand the purpose of buffing a raid boss like Toravon.

[Dwyn]

Thanks for making this thread. And yes, if anything the encounters could be nerfed a bit, not buffed further... And even if they are buffed, I get it in the case of some super heroic ICC25 or w/e, but VoA?... I don't really understand the reasoning behind this.

[PanofskyII]

Fun fact: RS25 normal is now easier than Toravon 25.

I understand the fact we play in a realm with a more challenging pve content but VoA is supposed to be an entry level raid.

[Frysharry]

Fun fact: RS25 normal is now easier than Toravon 25.

I understand the fact we play in a realm with a more challenging pve content but VoA is supposed to be an entry level raid.

RS25N was always easier than Toravon25. RS is legitimately braindead free loot boss, and VoA was the same. Now everyone needs to work together as a team to kill Toravon; I don't see a problem with this. You're potentially getting free T10 token'd loot, it should require some effort, and not just strolling in and collecting loot. Rotate Aura Masteries, Divine Sacs, Hand of Sacs, Tranqs, and every other raid CD. Tell people to spread with spheres instead of just stacking them in melee and it being cleaved down in 5 seconds.

[PanofskyII]

RS25N was always easier than Toravon25. RS is legitimately braindead free loot boss, and VoA was the same. Now everyone needs to work together as a team to kill Toravon; I don't see a problem with this. You're potentially getting free T10 token'd loot, it should require some effort, and not just strolling in and collecting loot. Rotate Aura Masteries, Divine Sacs, Hand of Sacs, Tranqs, and every other raid CD. Tell people to spread with spheres instead of just stacking them in melee and it being cleaved down in 5 seconds.

Thanks for the obvious explanation. I already knew that. The point stands still: Ruby Sanctum was never ment to be easier than Toravon, not by Blizzard default design. Those trinkets are definetly more valuable than a Sanct T10 item. I repeat: I understand the hardcore concept and I like it. I don't agree with it when the changes applied to the game content lead to nonsense.

[Frysharry]

Thanks for the obvious explanation. I already knew that. The point stands still: Ruby Sanctum was never ment to be easier than Toravon, not by Blizzard default design. Those trinkets are definetly more valuable than a Sanct T10 item. I repeat: I understand the hardcore concept and I like it. I don't agree with it when the changes applied to the game content lead to nonsense.

Nobody even knows if it was a tuning change or if it was the result of some bugfix. Maybe the spheres' damage was too low for some reason, who knows. It's an "entry level raid" in the current tier, so it should be equally as challenging, if not more, as the tier it's equivalent to (considering the potential rewards). And to reiterate, this is Lordareon, so even "entry level raids" like ICC10N or 25N are still far "harder" than the retail equivalent, by design. This change is being panned as some insane buff to the content when all it does is require people use the abilities in their spellbook. Nothing about Wrath raids are mechanically challenging.

[Susanna]

Nobody even knows if it was a tuning change or if it was the result of some bugfix. Maybe the spheres' damage was too low for some reason, who knows. It's an "entry level raid" in the current tier, so it should be equally as challenging, if not more, as the tier it's equivalent to (considering the potential rewards). And to reiterate, this is Lordareon, so even "entry level raids" like ICC10N or 25N are still far "harder" than the retail equivalent, by design. This change is being panned as some insane buff to the content when all it does is require people use the abilities in their spellbook. Nothing about Wrath raids are mechanically challenging.

After playing all this time here I've yet to meet a single player that started on Lordaeron for the buffed content. Pretty much everyone I've talked to started here for blizzlike/1x.

[Frysharry]

After playing all this time here I've yet to meet a single player that started on Lordaeron for the buffed content. Pretty much everyone I've talked to started here for blizzlike/1x.

Then go to Icecrown. There's variable XP rates now. You can feel like an elitist for leveling at a cripple speed AND you can faceroll through raid content like its raid finder difficulty from three tiers ago!

Lordareon has been Warmane's buffed PvE content realm since its inception. I don't know how you go through and try to find a server to play on and not come across this fact, unless you didn't even look into the servers' settings and just picked something. In which case, people whom cannot spend more than 30 seconds before choosing to do something should not be catered to.

Learn to play and get good, or go to Icecrown.

[t4d3y]

After playing all this time here I've yet to meet a single player that started on Lordaeron for the buffed content. Pretty much everyone I've talked to started here for blizzlike/1x.

Then you probably haven't played long enough. And anecdotal evidence is never really a hard point. Many people started for the 'hardcore' aspect of it (which has now, after so many years, faded tremendously), and enjoy some form of challenge with the WotLK setting, because retail was definitely easier. Besides, the 'blizzlike' was always mostly meant for the No-coin-shop status of the realm and 1x. But if you really play just for the 1x XP rates, then literally the only reason I see, is that you enjoy the leveling process, and as such don't care/shouldn't care about raid tuning. But if you wish to still raid, albeit casually, this shouldn't be the best realm for you.

Besides, as Frysharry said, the content of WotLK is not difficult, and even this VOA change brought just a small inconvenience, because now you maybe wipe once, before people actually start doing what they're supposed to. It's not ez1shotboss now, but it isn't so stupidly overtuned like people put it out to be.

[Susanna]

@Frysharry
Not sure why you're being so hostile/rude all of a sudden?
I started playing here because I've played on retail and I wanted a similar experience again. This was the closest server available (I played on old Lordaeron too before the "moltdown").
Likewise all my friends (and random people I've talked to about it) say they chose this realm for the same reason, with a few exceptions where they didn't want/couldn't donate to skip the Icecrown queue.

Feel free to explain how wanting a blizzlike experience is "elitist"? I guess everyone on retail were elitist then... *shrug*
If anything being in a super raiding guild (which is like sitting in an ivory tower in this context) while looking down on others and bashing them on the forums in threads like this is the actual definition of elitist.

@t3d3y

Yes but your comment is by your own definition also anecdotal :) I just conveyed what other players told me in-game in regards of this topic.
These kind of threads have been up in the Lordaeron forum several times before and I've been curious and started asking people in-game.

It's probably safe to assume that if you're in a "hardcore" raiding guild (like I assume both you and the other poster is) then you'll most likely socialize with similar players and there's a higher chance of them liking the "hardcore" aspect, than a player not belonging to that clique. But you guys are a minority on the server, the vast majority doesn't do hardcore raiding, hence my previous comment. And I hope we can both agree that this is anything but anecdotal.

I promised myself not to raid hardcore again (like I did in wotlk retail) because it starts to feel like a second job, and that's when the fun ends. If I for some reason started harcdore raiding here again I would still like to see the raids being slightly tuned down so that more players can experience end-game content, not just the afromentioned clique. And no, I don't have any problem handling boss mechanics, it's for the sake of other players that I'd like to see them further tuned.
I think it's in everyone's interest, because otherwise like Frysharry mentioned, players will start to switch to Icecrown or Frostmourne, when they notice that they keep getting stuck in progression (like a friend of mine that has played here for 2 years but she's still stuck at 5700). And I think that all of us want to see this realm flourish and grow!

[Chuyinno]

Lordaeron is and always will be a realm people join when Icecrown is full. Only a tiny minority have come here because of the buffed raids. Everybody just came here when they couldn't access Icecrown, leveled and then they just tried their best at the buffed raids. But now that there is free space in Icecrown people are leaving in masse, even to other servers, these buffs are really killing Lordaeron.

Imagine that they followed the logic that RS25 can't be easier than VoA and buffed it... it will be the last nail on Lordaeron's coffin. Not everybody enjoys the harder content or the constant buffs, just to mention a recent example, remember the Vali bug? According to what these people say, everybody should have hated it right? Lordaeron players hate everything that is easy, so a insta kill heroic bug would have been anathema to the server, right? No, everybody loved it, even the top LOD guilds did it every week for 3 weeks, you can still see their records on the page. Even newbie pugs were getting 3 heroic items, top guilds were saving time to reach LK faster, it was truly a gift, everybody was excited to see what Vali was going to drop next week.

I still don't understand why they keep buffing the server every month when it has such a negative impact on players and population numbers, now you can't see ICC 25 pugs in global anymore, at least on the alliance side, even VoA25 is scarce now. I know these buffs came out because devs are playing on frostmourne and want to fine tune it as hard as they can, but when its affecting the other realms, specially one with a delicate balance as Lordaeron, it should be given more thought, or make changes that only affect Frostmourne and leave Lordaeron out of it. In my opinion VoA and DBS should be rolled back to how they were before in Lordaeron, it made everything a lot worse. Even so the DI "bug" is questionable at best, even in the 2010 thread cited on the DI ticket people were mentioning using DI during the cast to avoid marks, so even in the evidence that DI didn't work there's evidence that it did work. The main problem was that Saurfang exhausted its runic power before casting and should have been AFTER casting, devs should have fixed only that and left the DI working as it was, just like it was working on retail and has worked on every server in the world. Just make Saurfang's runic power go to 0% after casting or when it fails to cast (due to DI), not when it begins to cast and problem fixed.

[Frysharry]

Everybody just came here when they couldn't access Icecrown, leveled and then they just tried their best at the buffed raids.

And if they cannot be arsed to use any of the abilities their class has, or has such low expectations of their fellow players that they also can't use slightly above the bare minimum of abilities required to be used, then they don't deserve the satisfaction of killing bosses.

Not everybody enjoys the harder content or the constant buffs

"Constant buffs" are a drop in the bucket from the sea of nerfs that Lordareon has gone through. Icecrown is one step away mate. Pay the $10 and skip the queue forever. $10 is nothing relative to what you would spend on any other medium of entertainment for a month, much less forever.

just to mention a recent example, remember the Vali bug? According to what these people say, everybody should have hated it right? Lordaeron players hate everything that is easy, so a insta kill heroic bug would have been anathema to the server, right? No, everybody loved it, even the top LOD guilds did it every week for 3 weeks, you can still see their records on the page. Even newbie pugs were getting 3 heroic items, top guilds were saving time to reach LK faster, it was truly a gift, everybody was excited to see what Vali was going to drop next week.

Of course people want free loot, and in this instance it was a definitive bug/unintended interaction instead of a tuning change. Same with Divine Intervention completely invalidating DBS. Nobody should be happy that the scripting is so bad that you can completely skip the one mechanic an entire boss encounter is designed around. I'm sure a ton of people LOVED getting free loot from DBS every week. Oh no, those poor people, why won't someone think of the poor guilds that exploited their way to free loot?! As compensation, Warmane should guarantee DBW in addition to the standard loot every week, just for compensation of the bugfix. :eyeroll:

I still don't understand why they keep buffing the server every month when it has such a negative impact on players and population numbers, now you can't see ICC 25 pugs in global anymore, at least on the alliance side, even VoA25 is scarce now.

Because that was the intended purpose of Lordareon. It's a "blizz-like" leveling experience and non-blizz-like raid tuning. As I have stated multiple times before, Lordareon has received massive, massive nerfs (and some buffs) over the past four years that turned it pretty much into Icecrown Lite. BQL HC lost 8 MILLION HP, Professor HC lost 5 million HP, Sindra gained 30 additional seconds to enrage timer, LOD/Bane's enrage was extended to retail enrage, etc; in every single one of these nerfs, multiple guilds secured their first kill immediately the week the nerfs went live. These bosses went from measures of how good a guild is to the "8 HC guild" meme we have now.

Even so the DI "bug" is questionable at best, even in the 2010 thread cited on the DI ticket people were mentioning using DI during the cast to avoid marks, so even in the evidence that DI didn't work there's evidence that it did work. The main problem was that Saurfang exhausted its runic power before casting and should have been AFTER casting, devs should have fixed only that and left the DI working as it was, just like it was working on retail and has worked on every server in the world. Just make Saurfang's runic power go to 0% after casting or when it fails to cast (due to DI), not when it begins to cast and problem fixed.

AFAIK you can still sit in DI to effectively nullify Marks' effects.

I know these buffs came out because devs are playing on frostmourne and want to fine tune it as hard as they can, but when its affecting the other realms, specially one with a delicate balance as Lordaeron

it will be the last nail on Lordaeron's coffin.

I'm genuinely curious to when you started on Lordareon because the server has been three times as active as it has been at its lowest, which was pre-COVID, like 2019. The population peaked at like 2k-2.5k on EU times. At this point only two guilds were killing LOD on the entire server, and most guilds were like 5 HCs. Also at this time, the average GS of the server was significantly lower than it is now (even among average guilds). Lordareon is no where near dead nor is it close to dying, and contrary the picture you paint, it's actually thriving if you look at the number of guilds clearing content. There's more guilds farming LoD now than there has ever been. People, on average, have significantly more gear on average than years ago. Content is on average significantly easier than when the old top guilds of Lordareon were clearing stuff. However, even now, there are bad players clearing/farming LOD, similar to that of Icecrown. You never had to be great to farm LOD, and it has never been clearer than >the current year. You can go through my post history back to 2017, 2018, 2019, and see how often I asked for nerfs to Lordareon's PvE content, posts that I now regret and wish they didn't go so heavy handed with the nerfs.

I will repeat myself: the issue is not that some of the content now demands you press more than the absolute bare minimum and to look past the first page of your spell book, it's that people have to get better on average. If they reverted all of the nerfs they did over the last couple of years, people would have a meltdown at how "impossible" content is, yet it was cleared by comparatively less skilled players, with less gear on average. Remember: Frostmourne players are clearing Lordareon-tuned bosses in ToGC/normal ICC gear; the problem is not the content, the PEBKAC.

I think it's in everyone's interest, because otherwise like Frysharry mentioned, players will start to switch to Icecrown or Frostmourne, when they notice that they keep getting stuck in progression (like a friend of mine that has played here for 2 years but she's still stuck at 5700).

If you haven't budged from 5.7 GS in 2 years, you are a genuinely bad player and I encourage you to go play on Icecrown so you can have an extremely casual experience and actually have fun.