Hi. Thanks for contributing in this thread! I'm glad that this topic gave you ideas on how to improve your VVA. :)
Yes, it's correct that any increase of AP would enhance our Rake and Rip abilities, which means that any AP/Agility/Strength buff would work. This could be anything from "Berserking" (weapon enchantment), to Insane Strength Potion, to Deathbringer's VVill (strength/agility). Proof:
https://wotlk.evowow.com/?spell=49800
https://wotlk.evowow.com/spell=48574#see-also
(If you go to this post, you can check the formulas I provided for the aforementioned abilities in the spoiler. You can see how AP is mentioned there, and that's the variable quantity.)
In case someone's sceptical about the formulas, I've provided some screenshots to illustrate the damage gain. Click on the spoiler:
Spoiler:Show
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Forum Veteran
Edited: September 11, 2021 Reason: adding some screenshots to prove that the formulas are correct
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Member
Hi, great stuff really. I never brainstorm to this extent like you do with your calculations,
but i love some good theorycrafting, especialy concerning feral druid - spec i exclusively
main since i started playing World of Warcraft back in 2009.
I always consider myself someone, who knows feral in and out,
this class is a living example, that there is still something
that might change the way we play it.
GotW procing OoC is a great thing and a great tool for any feral druids (and not only feral).
In my opinion every good feral druid should know how to abuse this, period.
Before pull, during movement while not hitting a boss, while pooling energy..
there are many examples on when it should be used.
Coming back to your way of using GotW during the fights,
I think it is a great way to utilise it even more, but I agree with you
that it should be up to the player to decide whether to include this in their somehow
complicated dps routine. I personally have been procing OoC with GotW midfight,
during specific moments - mostly, when im low on energy. Im out of energy, for example
after casting FB, then i GotW, get a clearcast and back into cat form with around 40-60 energy
+ Clearcast. For me that means i can get a 4cp Savage Roar withing 2 seconds back in Cat form.
I think the value of using GotW does not lie only with the clearcast itself, but the potential CP we can gain,
which then translates to more free FB, which translates to more dps, cause of course idealy,
we want to have 100% rake and rip uptime, so there is no potential increase from "additional" rakes & rips.
Learning something from your research, I will be definitely using stopattack macro for my GotW from now on.
Thanks for taking your time, to research this stuff so extensively. Great Job!
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Forum Veteran
1) Thanks, man! I'm glad that you enjoy it. Right now, I'm editing my old posts by adding the new information you see at the top of this page (i.e. the wall of text). I'll try to be as quick as possible, but it will take time.
2) Yeah, I also agree that CPs have an additional value, and I tried to view it as 1/5 of our 5CP FB multiplied by the amount of CPs we usually gain from our Shreds.
3) I still stand on my standpoint that everyone decides for themselves how they would approach this playstyle. Not everyone would feel comfortable taking risks or looking at addons that track their AA cooldown, and that's fine. That's the definition of a playstyle - it reflects our personal preferences, so I'm very glad to hear that you've found your own path.
Good luck with your future raids and have fun!
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Forum Veteran
EXTRASI. Certified
As I've promised, here's Aldtharios' reply:
It seems that this playstyle is not an exploit it all. You can all explore it without having any fear from a possible account suspension.
II. Switching idols in Naxx/Uld
Imagine that you possess "Idol of the Ravenous Beast" and "Idol of VVorship". It might seem obvious that we would gain damage by switching them either manually or with a macro, but that's bait! I've tested it multiple times, and I had encountered a delay, which prevented me from using my abilities immediately. This, on the other hand, led to me losing DoT ticks or CC procs. VVhat's the delay, I hear someone asking - it's 2 seconds (09/07/2022 Update: Switching idols triggers a 1.5-sec GCD and resets the swing timer). You can test it out for yourselves on a dummy. Just lower your energy to 40 or 50 and switch your current idol. You will see that you are able to attack with your special abilities after 20 energy. Since the penalty is huge, and the gain isn't that big, I stopped using it for months now, and I just resorted to my GotVV-shift.
But irony has is - the answer was hidden in the GotVV-shift all along.
You see, a few days ago I was inspired to make a GotVV-macro with an idol switching one, and it worked. Here's how:
As you all know, I make sure that my energy is somewhat low before I do the manoeuvre. So, at around 30 energy I used this macro while attacking the dummy:
/stopattack
/cast Gift of the wild
/equip {desired idol}
And the only delay I encountered was the one from the GotVV-shift. In other words, the downtime from switching idols OVERLAPPED with the one from the shift, which allowed me to benefit from the new relic until I decided to change it.
Disclaimer: I'm still not going to use it, because imho it's inpractical to have 2-3 (depending on your number of idols) macros just for switching the relics. Imho you would make a mistake and mess things up. At least, this is the case for me. I have limits, which I physically and mentally can't overcome (+ I don't want to either ^^). I'm leaving this piece of information here, in case someone wants to use it, and that person doesn't find it challenging to implement it in his gameplay. If that proves to be the case, then more power to him/her.
III. Request for a favour
1) Video footage
Since it's officially certified, I'd like to ask the druid community for a small favour. I personally believe that this thread would improve greatly if someone shared a video of a boss encounter, where he/she used the GotVV-shift. It doesn't matter if that person is in a super hardcore guild or in a casual one. This playstyle is not restricted to a specific demographic, so if someone could provide me with such a video and gave me their permission to add it in my "Summary", I would give them the proper credit.
2) Feedback
Since this is a previously unexplored territory, I don't claim that everything I wrote here is correct, hence why I am not considering it as a guide but more like a discussion thread. I'm not a min-maxer, I don't record my games, and I don't create personal statistics. I just did some calculations based on my current knowledge. If you suspect that I have made a mistake somewhere, which ultimately would lead to new conclusions, please let me know. However, I would ask you to give me an objective opinion (i.e. supported with facts or math and not with personal feelings).
IV. Author's Note
Before someone asks, yes, the proposed playstyle is more than viable. It's actually very beneficial. However, I don't think that it's going to be used by everyone, because:
a) some people wouldn't want to be bothered with doing more things on top of the already complex "rotation";
b) some people wouldn't trust RNG, and they wouldn't want to take risks.
That's fine! I don't expect this playstyle to become a new meta. It's the opposite, I would be glad if people took their time to read this thread and to think for themselves how they would approach it. VVould they reject it completely, or would they slowly integrate it in their gameplay? VVould they use it only when they desperately need energy, or would they spam the macro aggressively. Personally for me, this decision making brings me more joy in fights. Now feral cat's "rotation" becomes more dynamic, and I get to do more stuff than to wait patiently for my energy to pool.
Once again, I want this to be a personal choice for everyone, and I'm just sharing how it should be executed. Have fun!Edited: September 7, 2022 Reason: Read the "Changelog" in the "Summary".
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Forum Veteran
PREDATOR'S SVVIFTNESS - ANOTHER RELIABLE VVAY TO FORCE CCs?
(VVARNING - HUGE VVALL OF TEXT UP AHEAD!)
Big thanks to Sand1dark for informing me about this trick on discord! Also, props to skullatbash, DarkenedHue, Septimun, and Bigpwn for their amazing work in the bugtracker!
I. Backstory
During the end of the Naxxramas patch, Sand1dark informed me about a trick he used while raiding. He told me that using Predator's Swiftness in combination with Regrowth would oftentimes lead to a CC proc. VVell, one day I decided to test his words, and I did exactly 200 attempts on the practice dummy where I generated CPs, used them on a finishing move, got the "Predator's Swiftness" proc, and used that one on Regrowth/Healing Touch. Out of all 200 attempts, only 113 led to a CC proc while all other 87 whiffed. So, based on this experiment I estimated a proc chance of 56.5%. This number wasn't as exciting as the values for GotVV in a 25-man raid, but it was still pretty high in comparison to a single 3.5/60 proc.
However, despite me knowing this I decided not to post this on this thread. VVhy? That's because the interaction behaved very strangely, and since there was no indication that it should work that way, I considered it a bug and thus an EXPLOIT. Like, you can do yourselves a favour and check wowwiki, wowhead, and even wowpedia. You won't find any information about Predator's Swiftness enhancing the effect of Omen of Clarity in any of those sites. That said, last week I stumbled upon some interesting comments while browsing through the old EJ forums:
At 62 procs out of 100 wraths it gives the impression that something funny is going on with omen proccing from the Pred Swiftness casts as that seems to be vastly higher than the chance of getting it from just standing there chain casting the spells.Source:Originally Posted by Combatlog
[20:20:53.866] Greyhoof hits Gormok the Impaler 628
[20:20:54.618] Greyhoof's Cat Form fades
[20:20:54.618] Greyhoof begins to cast Wrath
[20:20:55.702] Greyhoof Wrath Gormok the Impaler Miss
[20:20:55.914] Greyhoof gains Cat Form from Greyhoof
[20:20:56.298] Greyhoof hits Gormok the Impaler Dodge
[20:21:03.046] Greyhoof crits Gormok the Impaler *2349*
[20:21:03.563] Greyhoof's Cat Form fades
[20:21:03.563] Greyhoof begins to cast Wrath
[20:21:03.955] Greyhoof Wrath Gormok the Impaler 867 (R: 85)
[20:21:04.139] Greyhoof gains Clearcasting from Greyhoof
[20:21:05.352] Greyhoof crits Gormok the Impaler *2044*
[20:21:05.546] Greyhoof gains Cat Form from Greyhoof
[20:21:07.120] Greyhoof crits Gormok the Impaler *2138*
[20:21:15.995] Greyhoof hits Gormok the Impaler 785
[20:21:16.517] Greyhoof's Cat Form fades
[20:21:16.517] Greyhoof begins to cast Wrath
[20:21:16.871] Greyhoof Wrath Gormok the Impaler 918
[20:21:16.945] Greyhoof gains Clearcasting from Greyhoof
[20:21:18.030] Greyhoof gains Cat Form from Greyhoof
[20:21:18.249] Greyhoof crits Gormok the Impaler *2454*
[20:21:36.721] Greyhoof crits Gormok the Impaler *2173*
[20:21:36.876] Greyhoof's Cat Form fades
[20:21:36.876] Greyhoof begins to cast Wrath
[20:21:37.212] Greyhoof Wrath Gormok the Impaler 927
[20:21:37.467] Greyhoof gains Clearcasting from Greyhoof
[20:21:38.289] Greyhoof gains Cat Form from Greyhoof
[20:21:38.702] Greyhoof crits Gormok the Impaler *2153*
[20:21:47.546] Greyhoof crits Gormok the Impaler *2136*
[20:21:48.076] Greyhoof's Cat Form fades
[20:21:48.077] Greyhoof begins to cast Wrath
[20:21:48.457] Greyhoof Wrath Gormok the Impaler 920
[20:21:48.717] Greyhoof gains Clearcasting from Greyhoof
[20:21:49.454] Greyhoof gains Cat Form from Greyhoof
[20:21:49.940] Greyhoof hits Gormok the Impaler 802
[20:21:57.944] Greyhoof hits Gormok the Impaler 968
[20:21:58.083] Greyhoof's Cat Form fades
[20:21:58.083] Greyhoof begins to cast Wrath
[20:21:58.483] Greyhoof Wrath Gormok the Impaler 813 (R: 80)
[20:21:58.655] Greyhoof gains Clearcasting from Greyhoof
[20:21:59.440] Greyhoof gains Cat Form from Greyhoof
[20:21:59.827] Greyhoof crits Gormok the Impaler *2208*
[20:22:13.086] Greyhoof crits Gormok the Impaler *2152*
[20:22:13.671] Greyhoof's Cat Form fades
[20:22:13.671] Greyhoof begins to cast Wrath
[20:22:14.000] Greyhoof Wrath Gormok the Impaler 769 (R: 170)
[20:22:15.057] Greyhoof gains Cat Form from Greyhoof
[20:22:15.358] Greyhoof crits Gormok the Impaler *2177*
[20:22:43.921] Greyhoof crits Gormok the Impaler *2281*
[20:22:44.577] Greyhoof gains Clearcasting from Greyhoof
[20:22:44.592] Greyhoof's Cat Form fades
[20:22:44.592] Greyhoof's Clearcasting fades
[20:22:44.592] Greyhoof begins to cast Wrath
[20:22:44.983] Greyhoof Wrath Gormok the Impaler *1528*
[20:22:45.998] Greyhoof gains Cat Form from Greyhoof
[20:22:46.280] Greyhoof crits Gormok the Impaler *289* (O: 1983)
https://web.archive.org/web/20101110..._rotation/p54/
To my surprise, I found out that this interaction wasn't a warmane-specific bug, but it had actually happened on retail. Still, I wanted to be sure that it was allowed on this server, so I sent a DM to Nobuemon. His reply:
Originally Posted by DarkenedHueSource: https://www.warmane.com/bugtracker/report/70641 (btw, you'll find more evidence there)Originally Posted by Bigpwn
So, from this report I understood the following. Predator's Swiftness didn't have a high chance to proc OoC on warmane initially, and the game developers upon viewing the report considered it a bug, and they consciously enabled this interaction on their server. This convinces me that I am allowed to share this knowledge publicly. Now that this is out of the way, let's start theorycrafting:
II. VVhat can we do with this information?
Here I'm going to show you how I will approach this case. In order to determine how and when we can use Predator's Swiftness to force CC procs, we need to answer the following questions first:
1) VVhat's the real proc % for this combo to give us a CC proc?
2) VVhat are its downsides and strengths in comparison to the GotVV-shift?
3) Can we draw any conclusions from it on our 25-man raids?
1) VVhat's the real proc % for this combo to give us a CC proc?
24/08/2022 Update: In the past, I didn't realise that Bigpwn was part of the staff. He claimed that the proc chance was around 58%. I suspect that the real number is 58.33% because those 10 seconds could be included in the PPH formula (if you multiply 3.5/60 by 10, you'll get 0.5833 or 58.33% for a CC proc). Let's compare it to our GotVV-shift:
GotVV in a 25-man group:
- 0 NPCs: 89.86% success chance;
- 1 NPC: 90.75% success chance;
- 2 NPCs: 91.56% success chance;
- 3 NPCs: 92.3% success chance;
- 4 NPCs: 92.97% success chance;
- 5 NPCs: 93.59% success chance.
so, the more targets we have, the less attractive the Predator's Swiftness-combo becomes. Ok, let's turn the tides. Let's compare it to GotVV in a 10-man raid:
GotVV in a 10-man group:
- 0 NPCs: 59.98% success chance;
- 1 NPC: 63.48% success chance;
- 2 NPCs: 66.67% success chance;
- 3 NPCs: 69.59% success chance;
- 4 NPCs: 72.25% success chance;
- 5 NPCs: 74.68% success chance.
So, we can conclude the following:1-(1-3.5/(60/1.5))^number of players and pets in the group
24/08/2022 Update: It's unfortunate seeing that the PS-OoC interaction is outshined even in 10-man groups, making it detrimental to us. Since this post is dedicated to PS, I am going to do some calculations in the following paragraphs as if we were using it normally in raids. In the past, I wrote this:If you're doing solo content or rdf, Predator's Swiftness is more reliable than the GotVV-shift.
If you're in a 10-man or a 25-man raid, the GotVV-shift is more reliable than Predator's Swiftness.
Spoiler:Show
However, I understood from Nap and from the Classic druid community that this is false. Omen of Clarity procs off spellcasts regardless if they are successful or not. I decided to playtest this interaction, and I stood corrected:
Sorry for the false info! You'll still need a /stopattack macro because the spellcast won't prevent a white swing in neutral form (you can even see the red circle under the dummy). Now that I've clarified that, I'll continue with the cons, and I'd like to repeat some of the obvious ones (which I have mentioned in the OP):
Here are the new things:- by exiting cat form we take the risk, that our faster attacks might have given us a CC anyway. In that case, we lose the damage from the missed AAs.
- by exiting cat form, other members lose our "Leader of the Pack" aura.
- unlike the GotVV-shift, we have a small time window to cast VVrath upon receiving the Predator's Swiftness proc (and I'm not even talking about the attack swing). The proc lasts only 9 seconds after utilising a finishing move due to the GCD, and thus we have less control over timing our combo. Finding the right moment to force the CC can be very difficult, and it might require a lot of concentration and mental energy.
- when casting VVrath, there’s a possibility that our buff might whiff. Unlike the GotVV-shift, we can't redo the manoeuvre, because we would have lost the Predator's Swiftness proc from the first spell. So, in case of a whiff, we need to accept the loss and shapeshift back into cat form immediately.
- we change back to cat form, but now we have less energy due to having 3 points in Furor.
- when we enter cat form again, our Shred is delayed due to the GCD. In that time our cat AA could proc the CC.
- the more we do this trick, the less mana we have. This might be a problem if someone dies, and we can't bress him.
- speaking of bressing people, imagine that you waste your Predator's Swiftness proc on VVrath, and someone dies within a few seconds. Since you won't have the proc anymore, you have to cast the slow spell, which would eat up your damage.
"speaking of bressing people, imagine that you waste your Predator's Swiftness proc on VVrath, and someone dies within a few seconds. Since you won't have the proc anymore, you have to cast the slow spell, which would eat up your damage."
This sounds bad, and I won't deny that it is. It would be really bad to get ****ed like this especially if you're in a progression raid, and your teammates tend to die a lot. My advice to you is to be as cautious as possible. Don't use it too aggressively! Also, if there's a boss mechanic, which oftentimes leads to someone's demise, you should hold onto your Predator's Swiftness proc for that moment.
"when casting VVrath, there’s a possibility that our buff might whiff. Unlike the GotVV-shift, we can't redo the manoeuvre, because we would have lost the Predator's Swiftness proc from the first spell. So, in case of a whiff, we need to accept the loss and shapeshift back into cat form immediately."
This is a huge penalty. Assuming that the success rate is 58.33%, in all remaining 41.67% of the cases we will remain empty-handed and suffer a loss. I'm going to give you an allegorical example - imagine that you're in a саsinо, you ask to get a small loan, and you use that money on gаmbling. Are you ok with the idea that if you fail once, there won't be a do-over? The money is gone, and it's time to pay your dues.
"unlike the GotVV-shift, we have a small time window to cast VVrath upon receiving the Predator's Swiftness proc (and I'm not even talking about the attack swing). The proc lasts only 9 seconds after utilising a finishing move due to the GCD, and thus we have less control over timing our combo. Finding the right moment to force the CC can be very difficult, and it might require a lot of concentration and mental energy."
Nothing more to say here. I think this paragraph explains it all. It's going to be hard to find the right moment to force a CC proc via Predator's Swiftness, and in some cases you might be overwhelmed with information and do a mistake.
Now that we have observed the cons, it's time to calculate the damage gain when we use it:
III. New equation
If we accept that the proc chance of the CC is 58.33%, we cast VVrath, and we shapeshift into cat form even after a whiff, here's how the Predator's Swiftness formula should look like:
The initial VVrath damage remains the same regardless of gear:0.5833(shred damage) + 0.5833 (average amount of CPs per ability)*(damage output of 1 CP) + VVrath damage - (number of missed AAs)*(AA damage) - (number of AAs prior to Shred)*(3.5/60)*(shred damage) - (number of AAs prior to Shred)*(3.5/60)*(average amount of CPs per ability)*(damage output of 1 CP)
I went to Rawr and added raid buffs, which estimated an average damage of ~900.
(with Naxx and Ulduar gear)
(with ICC and RS gear)
I'll use the estimated 1.1 and 1.4 delays and the damage output from the fourth post.
1) [0.7 att speed] VVe have a 1.1 delay, which is equivalent to 1.57 missed attacks. The average Shred damage is 14053, while AA - 3030. If we want to consider the amount of AAs prior to Shred, we would add 1.274 seconds to this delay, and we will get 2.374 seconds, which will be 3.39 AAs. Now, let's do some math:
8197 + 2877 + 900 - 4757 - 2779 - 976 = 3462 [if we exclude the CP value, we can see that the Predator's Swiftness trick is still worth it]
2) [0.7 att speed] VVe have a 1.4 delay, which is equivalent to 2 missed attacks. If we want to consider the amount of AAs prior to Shred, we would add 1.274 seconds to this delay, and we will get 2.674 seconds, which will be 3.82 AAs.
8197 + 2877 + 900 - 6060 - 3131 - 1099 = 1684 [if we exclude the CP value, we can see that Predator's Swiftness is NOT able to make the cut. This means that when you don't get any CPs from your Predator's Swiftness manoeuvres, you shouldn't go for this trick.]
3) [0.65 att speed] VVe have a 1.1 delay, which is equivalent to 1.69 missed attacks. If we want to consider the amount of AAs prior to Shred, we would add 1.274 seconds to this delay, and we will get 2.374 seconds, which will be 3.65 AAs. Now, let's do some math:
8197 + 2877 + 900 - 5121 - 2992 - 1050 = 2811 [if we exclude the CP value, we can see that the Predator's Swiftness trick is still worth it]
4) [0.65 att speed] VVe have a 1.4 delay, which is equivalent to 2.15 missed attacks. If we want to consider the amount of AAs prior to Shred, we would add 1.274 seconds to this delay, and we will get 2.674 seconds, which will be 4.11 AAs.
8197 + 2877 + 900 - 6515 - 3369 - 1183 = 907 Oof. That's really low, but at least it can serve as a benchmark for the Predator's Swiftness combo. Obviously, if I go lower than 0.65, I will start to see negative numbers, so I will stop here.]
TLDR:
Your current attack speed. Is the Predator's Swiftness-trick worth it? >0.7 only with CP value 0.7 only with CP value 0.65 only with CP value lower than 0.65 X
Your current attack speed. Can you afford to sacrifice a Rip tick? Can you afford to sacrifice a Rake tick? any not recommended not recommended
IV. Author's note
Look, I need to clarify something. Despite the positive numbers, I am honestly not using it anywhere except in rdf and when I need to bress someone. Imho, having a 58.33% chance to get a proc is just too small in comparison to the risks we'd have to take and the effort we'd need to put. I also don't use the GotVV-shift in 10-man and just resort to the traditional OoC sources, i.e. AAs, NG, FFF, and Barkskin.
However, this knowledge helped me understand something. It helped me understand how Predator's Swiftness works, which in turn allowed me to understand how its combination with Rebirth would work. If it behaves the same way as with VVrath, Regrowth, and Healing Touch, then we can expect to get a 58.33% for a CC proc whenever we bress someone. This means, that CATS SHOULD ALVVAYS BRESS PEOPLE FIRST, AND THEY NEED TO MAKE THE RIGHT PLAY TO GET REVVARDED. So, you should talk to your RL and ask him/her to let you be the first druid to use the bress. In comparison to the GotVV-shift, casting Rebirth has more internal value, because you're actively helping your fellow raid members, and as a bonus you'd get a CC in 58.33% of the cases. I'm going to alter my previous allegorical example for this case - imagine that you lend a friend some money. There's a chance that they repay you generously for the gesture, but there's also a chance that they "forget" about your deeds. Even in the worst case scenario, wouldn't you be glad to have helped a comrade in need? My point is that the satisfaction you'd get from being rewarded by the game would FEEL greater than with any other redundant healing spell, because your spellcast would have a real purpose this time around.Edited: September 7, 2022 Reason: Read the "Changelog" in the "Summary".
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Forum Veteran
A small(?) mistake
FERAL VS CASTER GCD DURATION
After reading the EJ forums, I've noticed that many referred to the GCD lasting 1.5 seconds, which was weird to me because I've seen it being mentioned as 1 second. So, a few hours ago, I decided to check wowwiki to see what it would say, and, alas, it confirmed my suspicions:
So, the following abilities have the ordinary 1.5 sec GCD:The global cooldown is generally 1.5 seconds for all classes except rogues, Cat Form druids, and Death Knights, whose abilities are mostly one second global cooldown.
- Gift of the VVild;
- VVrath/Regrowth/Healing Touch/Rebirth + PS.
If there are some good news, I've read that haste minimises that number by a bit. For this example, I used the following macro:
In order for this to work, you need to cast any spell and use the command in the chat. I did some quick tests, and here's what I've got:/run local ID = 21849; local start, duration, enabled = GetSpellCooldown(ID); ChatFrame1:AddMessage(format("%u start %.3f, duration %.3f, enabled %.3f", ID, start, duration, enabled))
Source: https://www.wowhead.com/forums/topic...own-gcd-234018
Explanation:
- If the duration is 0.0000 = no GCD is present.
- If the duration is 1.378 = GCD lasts 1.378 seconds.
- If the duration is 1.258 = GCD lasts 1.258 seconds.
Since on my Icecrown druid, I have 290 haste rating, which translates as 11.5% melee haste and 8.84% spell haste, I divided 1.5 by 1.0884 and got 1.378. Since I wanted to be more certain about the results, I used my Engineering Enchant. This increased my melee haste to 24.98% and my spell haste to 19.21%. Once again, I divided 1.5 by 1.1921 and got 1.258.
So, this is how I can determine the duration of our GCDs in 25-man raids.
1.5/1.0884/1.03(spell haste from boomies)/1.05 (wrath of the air totem) = 1.274 seconds
VVith more haste rating (from DBVV and haste pots), this number would decrease as well. Melee haste by itself wouldn't affect it though.
Sorry for the false information in the past!
Edited: February 26, 2023 Reason: minor edit
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Forum Veteran
VVOULD A 4CP FB BE PART OF FERAL CAT'S GAMEPLAY?
(FOOD FOR THOUGHT)
I. General overview
In the past, I was quite curious to know the answer to this question. After all, many feral guides (and not just on warmane) suggested that we should cast FB with 5CPs and no less than that. However, according to FluffyBully crogues would lose damage if their Sinister Strike has the potential to grant them 2 CPs while they sit at 4 CPs:
so I thought - why can't this apply to feral cats as well? Yes, we don't have a tier bonus that grants us extra CPs, but wouldn't the principle still be applied?It's simple. Due to Sinister Strike Glyph. You can reach 4CP with 2 sinister strikes, then the 3rd sinister strike might be a waste of 1 combo point and the AP scaling of 5CP finisher can be ignored cuz you gona pump out more finishers that way especially with 4set.
Examples of what combo points u might get:
SS --> 2 CP SS --> 4 CP ---> SS 5 CP == 1 CP wasted if the next one procs the glyph
1 CP from talent SS --> 3 CP ---> ss--> either 4 or 5 in both cases you don't lose a combo point
1 CP from talent again --> SS --> 2 CP SS --> 4 CP next SS can be again a waste so we saved a combo point here again for the next cycle
Before I figured out how to take the value of our CPs, I was constantly facing a dead end because X number of Shreds with 4CP FB always ended doing less damage than with 5CP FB. However, now that I've shared my idea on how to take that factor into consideration (read "VVhat's the value of a CP?" in the fourth post), I'd like to have another take. Here are some numbers:
If I ignore OoC procs from AAs, trinket procs, and energy flow in general, here's a hypothetical example:14029 AP (with raid buffs + AP flask); 78% crit (incl. the crit vulnerability); 100% arp (DA=0.98); SR, no idol, no Berserking, and no trinket procs are included here:
- Rip damage:
- Rip (non-crit) = 2450
- Rip (crit) = 5552
- Rip (average) = 4721
- Shred damage:
- non-crit = 7294
- crit = 16528
- average =14053
- FB critical damage:
- 5CP FB = 25951
- 4CP FB = 20912
- Value of a CP based on x amount of CPs for a critical FB:
- 5CP = 14332 (1CP = 2848, 2CPs = 5696, 1.732CPs = 4933)
- 4CP = 9201 (1CP = 2300.25, 2CPs = 4600.5, 1.732CPs = 3984)
Yes, I can see that it leads to a small loss, BUT that's one side of the spectrum imho. VVhat if we have to refresh Rip afterwards? Let's look at the following hypothetical example:Shreds are critical strikes, Rip doesn't play a role:
- 2*Shreds -> 4CP FB -> 2*Shreds -> 4CP FB -> 2*Shreds + 4CPs
- 3*Shreds -> 5CP FB -> 3*Shreds -> 5CP FB
In both cases, we would have enough energy for 6 Shreds and 2 FBs. Let's do some math:
6*Shreds + 2*4CP FB + 4CP bonus damage (4CP FB) vs 6*Shreds + 2*5CP FB
If I remove the Shred damage, I'd get:
41824 + 9201 vs 51902
or a loss of 877 points of damage.
In the 4CP FB example, we would be ahead of the curve, and we would most likely refresh that finisher w/o any delays. The 5CP FB could lead to a loss if we don't generate enough CPs on time for the finisher. This could happen in bad RNG moments and/or during unfortunate boss mechanics. This means that the 4-CP FB is situationally applicable.Shreds are critical strikes, Rip plays a role:
- 2*Shreds -> 4CP FB -> 3*Shreds -> 5CP Rip -> Shred + 2CPs
- 3*Shreds -> 5CP FB -> 3*Shreds -> 5CP Rip (w/o 2 ticks)
In both cases, we would have enough energy for 6 Shreds, one FB, and one Rip. Let's do some math:
6*Shreds + 4CP FB + 2CPs vs 6*Shreds + 5CP FB - 2*Rip ticks
If I remove the Shred damage, I'd get:
20912 + 4600.5 vs 25951 - (2*4721)
25512.5 vs 16509
or a gain of 9003.5 points of damage.
Let's imagine that we lose only one Rip tick in the second scenario. That would lead to:
25512.5 vs 21230
or a gain of 4282.5 points of damage.Edited: August 31, 2022 Reason: Read the "Changelog" in the "Summary".
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Forum Veteran
AGILITY vs STRENGTH vs HASTE
VVHICH ARCHTYPE VVOULD BE MOST SUITABLE FOR THE GOTVV-SHIFT?
(VVARNING: HUGE VVALL OF TEXT UP AHEAD!)
[21/02/2023] Disclaimer: The builds here are not refined, and the numbers don't lead to correct conclusions. This is why the post was continued on the third page. That said, its contents are still worth reading because you can see how I evaluated different builds in the context of "/stopattack". To this day, I still use some of the formulas here. Furthermore, even if the conclusions aren't 100% accurate, the numbers show an interesting tendency - haste becomes less attractive the more GotVV-shifts we perform on average per minute. As you're about to find out on the next page, it takes more than one shift to make this stat less attractive unlike what I said here in the past. Regardless, that tendency encouraged me to look past haste and to consider builds with more strength gems.
I. Preface (readers can skip)
It needs to be said: I’m not a usually person, who tackles the topic about BiS gear, BiS gems, and BiS enchants for feral cat, because for starters most of the components are the same with only few exceptions, and, quite frankly, I never liked working with small numbers. After actually seeing how much damage an AP increase actually does, I just got convinced that executing the abilities precisely and managing your energy well played a much bigger role than some minor stat increases.
Just to prove my point - if the GotVV-shift hadn’t been as profitable as it is and had just given me 3-digit bonuses, even if they were 100% guaranteed and 100% safe on every single usage, I would have never made this thread in the first place. So, why this post then? Quite honestly, I’ve stumbled upon people who preferred Strength with the GotVV-shift w/o providing the proper numbers. Even though it was made clear in this thread that this manoeuvre has notable anti-synergies with haste, I didn’t explicitly say that haste is completely out of the question. Because of the contradicting statements I’ve heard in the past, I’m going to try to find out whether Agility or Strength would fit this manoeuvre better, or whether Haste would still remain king despite the obvious challenges. In order to get better results, I’ve decided to use Rawr v 2.3.23 this time around and to develop different builds for each of those stats, which from now on I am going to refer to as archtypes, and compare their damage output in the context of the GotVV-shift. Let it be clear that whatever gear lists you see won't necessarily be treated as BiS - I just needed good representatives of each archtype for this post.
II. An example build for each archtype
If you click on each spoiler, you’d see a nice representation of how each archtype would look like in terms of items, gems, enchants, and overall stats.
Gerenal features:
- BiS professions - Jewelcrafting and Engineering
- this talent tree
- Presence of Tiger’s Fury weapon damage (16 on average for the whole fight)
- Horn of Winter
- Improved Blessing of Might
- Trueshot Aura
- Sanctified Retrobution
- Blessing of Sanctuary
- Improved Moonkin Form
- Leader of the Pact
- Improved Icy Talons
- Improved Mark of the VVild
- Blessing of Kings
- Sunder Armour
- Faerie Fire
- Mangle (for bleed damage)
- Heart of the Crusader
- Flask of Endless Rage
- Agility/Strength/Haste food depending on archtype
- boss lvl 83
- boss’s armour 10643
- Horde-only builds (aka no “1% hit rating” aura)
AgilitySpoiler:Show
StrengthSpoiler:Show
HasteSpoiler:Show
VVe can already see how the damage of some abilities has been formed. Now, it’s time to add them in combat:
III. Performance of each archtype in fights with different lengths and a different amount of CCs
Although I didn’t use any software simulators for the following experiment, I created a hypothetical environment, which I filled with as little RNG as possible. I wanted to compare all different archtypes to one another and see which dealt the most damage when all factors were equal. This was my main goal - equality and not reality because in a real-life scenario RNG would have an annoying influence over the encounter, and the numbers would lead to false conclusions, as this person explains it well in the following video:
For that reason, here’s how I defined the conditionsSpoiler:Show
Small example with explanationsSpoiler:Show
This example is just a model of how I would proceed further.
2-min nonstop dummy-boss fightSpoiler:Show
2.5-min nonstop dummy-boss fightSpoiler:Show
3.0-min nonstop dummy-boss fightSpoiler:Show
3.5-min nonstop dummy-boss fightSpoiler:Show
4.0-min nonstop dummy-boss fightSpoiler:Show
4.5-min nonstop dummy-boss fightSpoiler:Show
IV. Final verdict
- As I’ve expected, the anti-synergies would have a toll on the haste archtype. The more we use the manoeuvre, the less attractive haste becomes.
- Surprisingly, strength was the clear winner here. Even with 1 GotVV-shift per minute, it was able to beat haste. I thought agility would benefit more due to the extra crit, but the numbers go in favour of the stronk kat.
13/04/2022 Update: Yday, I wanted to do more calculations and see at what threshold agility would become better than strength. TLDR: You'd need an ABSURD amount of GotVV-shifts per minute to reach that threshold. I don't know what the actual threshold is because I stopped with 15 GotVV-shifts per minute. Check the next spoiler if you want to see some proof:Spoiler:Show
- VVhether haste or agility would take the silver medal is determined by the amount of GotVV-shifts you do per minute. Typically, you need at least two in order for agility to prevail.
Kova, what does that mean for Potion of Haste?
Spoiler:Show
25/09/2022 Update: I just redid my calculations, and technically they're correct, but they are based on Rawr's faulty estimation of the proc rate for the ICC rep ring. It's not 10%, but rather 1.66% (1 PPM). This post is continued here.Edited: February 20, 2023 Reason: added an orange text at the start
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Forum Veteran
SOMETHING ABOUT THE 5% MELEE CRIT
Recently, I've noticed a peculiar interaction between feral druid's http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=24932 and Fury VVarrior's http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=29801. VVhile I was shapeshifting out of catform, I saw a small delay with the latter aura. It didn't pop up immediately but only after around 2 seconds. At first, I thought it was just a visual bug, but now I wanted to test this interaction with my guild, and my fears became a reality:
So, yeah. I wanted to inform everyone who wanted to use this technique. Even if this new information drives people away from this thread (not like the huge walls of the next didn't do it beforehand, but that's a different topic), as you can see I have always valued transparency. Now you know one more thing about this playstyle.
[edit] In a last desperate attempt to save this theorycraft from the niche status, I watched some old retail videos, hoping to see that the interaction had worked differently on retail so that I could submit a ticket and report it in the bugtracker. I'm sad to say, but there's no bug here. Check this video:
Timestamps for the dudu 5% crit being replaced by Rampage:
- 1:59-2:00
- 2:54-2:55
- 5:35-5:37
As I've expected, the delay had occurred in the past as well, so nothing can be "fixed" about this interaction as it's working "as intended". Ngl, it was very disappointing learning about its existence after everything so far, and I'm still very salty about it. Like, the GoTVV-shift added an extra layer of skill to feral cat's gameplay, and all of the other parts aligned so well for this theorycraft. Just one small, unlogical, unintuitive interaction was all it took to slap the "niche" tag on it due to how punishing the loss of the 5% crit for 1 second could be for the rest of the non-fwarrior and non-feral mdps and hunters.Edited: September 1, 2022 Reason: Read the "Changelog" in the "Summary".
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Forum Veteran
FOLLOVV-UP POST
Look, initially I planned to leave the thread as it is. After learning about the existence of the delay between Rampage and Leader of the Pack, I did a bit of a research - I tried to find proof for that in retail wotlk, and I also asked some forum users and staff members about their opinion:
The delay being reported in the bug tracker:
Source: https://www.warmane.com/bugtracker/report/105419 provided by skullatbash {thanks, mate}Bigpwn:
The report is incorret, auras were updated periodically on retail aswell (Can see the delay in this clip for example)
https://youtu.be/hDQXM0-jkeA?t=158
VVhen asking about the possibility of removing the delay:
Indeed the delay is not only blizzlike, but it seems that the staff prefers to keep it due to technical reasons (I don't know how removing the delay would be heavy on the hardware, but I won't dispute it). So, the delay will always be present, and there's nothing we can do to change it.
Or so I thought:
Please check the following video:
Time stamps when the GotVV-shift was used:Spoiler:Show
- 0:29-0:30
- 0:35-0:36
- 0:49-0:48
- 0:54-0:55
- 1:05-1:06
- 1:21-1:22
- 1:36-1:37
- 2:11-2:12
- 2:29-2:30
- 2:40-2:42
- 2:51-2:52
- 3:11-3:12
- 3:35-3:36
- 3:52-3:53
I've purposely coloured some of the time stamps. It seems that the delay is not behaving on a consistent basis, and SOMETIMES it's absent. I wanted to ask the staff about this interaction again, and this was our brief conversation:
VVell, those were some good news at least. VVe're allowed to explore this territory a bit more and potentially find a way to trigger Rampage on a more consistent basis. BlueAo considered it as a minor and insignificant thing. I'd like to explain why it matters to me - the same reason why casters love Demo Locks and Boomies for their buffs, so too the 5% crit is important to melees and hunters. If even a tank doesn't get a crit because of the absence of the aura, then it doesn't matter how much dps we gain from this as the raid damage decreases. This is why I've made this post:
I want to find a way to have Rampage on a more consistent basis. Now, I am aware that there's a possibility that the server processes information differently at times, and that cannot be changed. In that case nothing we do would impact this interaction, and we have to accept that the delay is inevitable. However, if this is caused by a code that can behave differently as we've observed in the video, then I want to find out how to manipulate it (ofc by using legit methods and not cheating programs for example). I'm leaving this post like so, in case someone finds the information to be somewhat useful.Edited: August 24, 2022 Reason: Read the "Changelog" in the "Summary".
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Forum Veteran
SOLUTION?
Before I continue, I'd like to mention something. I had some ideas on what to attempt, which would trigger Rampage to pop up a bit more frequently. Some of them might sound a bit silly, and I would prolly make a fool of myself, but I want to mention them here just in case they give someone food for thought:
- 2 or more fury warriors in the raid;
- one fury warrior, but he needs to be in the same party group as the feral GotVV-shifter;
- a fury warrior who resides in the country where the server is hosted (I know, this sounds really dumb, but I thought that the client-server information might be processed differently depending on that);
- raiding with a fury warrior in a low-ms instance (-//-).
Again, I know that some of these sound really absurd and silly, but I was looking for different solutions. A few minutes ago, I participated in a failed RS 25 pug raid with 2 fury warriors and one feral tank. Here are some videos of me shapeshifting out of cat form and casting MotVV:
Shapeshifts out of cat form
Spoiler:Show
Shapeshifts out of cat form
Spoiler:Show
Shapeshifts out of cat form
Spoiler:Show
I was actually surprised seeing how the Rampage-Leader of the Pack interaction functioned. As you can see, despite there being a bear tank in the raid (2/2 http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=34300, whereas I only have 1/2), the dudu 5% didn't always register. In the cases, when it did, it was an immediate replacement, but most of the time the fwarrior's aura was present. So, the answer is - we need more fwarriors?
[Update: 07/07/2022] No, we don't. I was in an Onyxia 25-man run two months ago, and although I don't have any footage of the fight, I remember seeing from time to time how the 5% crit didn't appear with the addition of 2 fwarriors. Seeing how inconsistent the delay is, I PERSONALLY BELIEVE that it's a visual bug. However, since I don't have any proof for this, I can't promote this claim. Use this information as you want. I would appreciate if someone monitors fights with and without the GotVV-shift and shows me whether the delay is real or just an illusion.Edited: July 7, 2022 Reason: Read the "Changelog" in the "Summary".
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Member
`I've tested it multiple times, and I had encountered a delay, which prevented me from using my abilities immediately.`
I use Shred -> Instantly swap Idol -> I can cast Rake normally. Moreover, I am getting CC procs when equiping the Idol.
I tried this at target dummy, you think it behaves differently in a raid environment ? This way we can use the Rip Idol to buff a 5CP Rip, then swap back to 264 Idol while keeping the Agility buff, correct?
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Forum Veteran
Hey! I'm sorry to say, but the information here is slightly outdated. In the past, I wasn't aware that the idol can be swapped immediately after a person casts an ability, in order to overlap the cat 1-sec GCD with the regular one. I had observed something similar by a lucky occurance, and this is why I proposed a combined macro with the GotVV-shift and the relic swap so that you would get both effects at the same time. Since I didn't understand that interaction too well, I didn't put too much thought into it afterwards.
As for the CC from the relic swap - I am certain that it's just a lucky proc. OoC is triggered by AAs and target of our spells. Relic swapping can't do it.
Btw, I've explained the topic of idol swapping in my new guide. Check this quote:
Edited: June 18, 2022
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Forum Veteran
I decided to dump this post here, so that I can keep the comment section of my guide somewhat cleen.
RANDOM COMMENTARY
https://web.archive.org/web/20090209..._rotation/p19/
https://web.archive.org/web/20090311...s_rotation/p30
^The topic of idol swapping was discussed before. People outright rejected it because, apparently, it reseted the swing timer. After rewatching some of my videos, where I tested this manoeuvre, I am able to confirm that this is true. In the past, I've combined the macro for the GotVV-shift with an idol, and I was able to confirm that I could overlap their downtimes. HOWEVER, I want to make a video just so I could see whether there's yet another delay, which I'm not acknowledging with the propsed solution.
https://web.archive.org/web/20101110..._rotation/p52/
This player also evaluated the CPs like me, though he used the DPE approach. Still, it's good to know that my hypothesis wasn't too far from the truth.You must be placing very little value on combo points for the break-even point to be so low. I made a very rough estimate of the value of a combo point by subtracting the DPE of Shred from the DPE of a 5 CP Ferocious Bite and dividing by 5.
First few pages mention some kind of a Mangle-centered build (using 2pt6 items) with 3/3 Improved Mangle. Now, I'm not going to do any calculations around it, since it mostly affects the Naxxramas phase, and people would sacrifice a lot of stats, but if someone wants to learn more about it, then can read the first 5-6 pages.
https://web.archive.org/web/20090221...s_rotation/p23
^Some kind of an addon (Facemauler) is mentioned here, and people seemed to like it. I'm not an expert on addons, but if someone is interested, you can click on the link above and read more about it.
https://web.archive.org/web/20090220...s_rotation/p7/
it's ya boi again - a civilian - the person, whose initial formula for the GotVV-shift w/o the /stopattack command became the cornerstone of this technique
Ok, I admit that I'm brain ******ed after reading his post, but it seems that this is the information I was looking for. Can someone decipher it, i.e. explain it with simple words?
- what could he have meant by "units of damage"? Was it necessary to add that "d"? Why not leave the damage of Shred as "s" and the one for Rip as "r"?
- if I ignore the confusion above, I can somewhat understand why he wrote Shred as "Shred damage - energy - CPs = 0", though he didn't consider "e" as the damage for that amount of energy and instead just energy. Same goes to "1+t", which he didn't obrserve as the CP damage but just the number of CPs based on the crit%, which is like comparing apples to oranges imho.
- the third thing, which I don't understand is this:
How did you "eliminate" a multiplier out of thin air?From this we can eliminate d to write a relation between e and c,
c = (42r-30s)/(5s+(1+t)r) e
I honestly wished that I had picked math and informatics in school so that I could understand his logic. For now, I'll stick to the simple idea that the CPs are based on the value of [FB - (shred:35/42)]/5. As I've explained a few lines above, Melthu had the same idea with the difference that he used DPE. If someone manages to explain "a civilian"'s equation, I would have a better understanding how to evaluate SR and would correct the false information.
Just putting it out here. In EJ, only FFF, NG, and GotW were mentioned. Barkskin wasn't. I wanted to make a video, where I showed you that I have actually tested this interaction and was able to confirm it. Also, third time's the charm. :P
Gear-relatedSpoiler:Show
Kova's ingame clipsSpoiler:Show
Including calculations in the guideSpoiler:Show
Timing FB and Rip when the boss is about to die (food for thought)Spoiler:Show
GotVV-shift in 10-man groupsSpoiler:Show
Chicken vs Thermal bombSpoiler:Show
Rake is about to expire, but SR and Rip last ~10 seconds, and we have 5 CPs. What to do?Spoiler:Show
Berserk at the very beginning of a fightSpoiler:Show
FFF proccing OoC (12.04.2023 UPDATED)Spoiler:Show Edited: January 12, 2024 Reason: removed some of the contents from this post
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Forum Veteran
PERSONAL ANALYSIS OF SAVAGE ROAR
In the last couple of days, I was inspired to find the answer to yet another puzzling question - how to use SR during a fight, Obviously, I don't mean to ask whether it should be used with 4/5 CPs because this is common knowledge. However, due to certain conditions (RNG, boss mechanics, Rip duration) we cannot always generate that amount of CPs w/o any penalty. So, my question is - is it better to have an extra unbuffed CP-generator for SR so that we have more seconds to spare with, or should we cast it with 1-2 and never let it drop? Let's start from the beginning:
SR costs 25 energy, and it grants us 5 seconds for each CP we invest in it. If we use SR too often in fights, then we would have less energy to spend on our spamming ability, aka Shred. For that reason, I'm going to consider the cost of 25 energy to be an investment based on the Shred damage:
VVith raid buffs, my ICC cat would deal 14053 damage with Shred on average. So, spending 25 energy for SR would "cost" me 8364.88 damage on average.Energy investment for SR = 25/42*Shred
In addition to that, we also spend CPs, which under normal circumstances could be used on a 5CP-FB. By using the proposed formula for evaluating the CPs, we can see just how much potential damage we invest in this ability:
In other words, on top of the initial 8364.88 damage, I would "sacrifice" 2848 per CP. Here's the full picture:
SR
- 14 seconds: 8364.88+(1*2848) = 11212.88 (an investment of 800.92 damage per second)
- 19 seconds: 8364.88+(2*2848) = 14,060.88 (an investment of 740.05 damage per second)
- 24 seconds: 8364.88+(3*2848) = 16908.88 (an investment of 704.54 damage per second)
- 29 seconds: 8364.88+(4*2848) = 19756.88 (an investment of 681.27 damage per second)
- 34 seconds: 8364.88+(5*2848) = 22604.88 (an investment of 664.85 damage per second)
So, the more CPs we spend on SR, the smaller the dps investment for it becomes. This shows why it's worth refreshing this finisher with 4/5 CPs. VVhat about going from 4-CP to 5-CP SR? I would definitely lose some CP value doing so. In order to describe it better, I am going to consider the fact that my feral cat has around 73.2% chance for a crit with raid buffs and -4.8% crit suppression, so on average I would gain 1.732 CPs or 4933 damage.
Yikes. This shows that under normal circumstances it's not a good idea to go from 4 to 5 SR. However, sometimes we would be forced to do it, especially when we get CCs. If we wait long enough for the 4-CP SR to expire, then our CC might get overwritten, which would be the worst outcome. Of course, this mostly boils down to luck as we don't know whether the next AA would proc a CC, but it's something important to note. The same is true when our Berserk is active - we cannot afford to wait for SR to expire first before using another ability since it would waste precious seconds of our big CD.4CP SR + 1.732 CPs = 5CP SR with extra spending
19756.88 + 4933 = 24,689.88 (an investment of 726.17 damage per second)
Now, I want to see what it would be like if I decide to use an unbuffed ability in order to generate extra CPs:
Penalty from using unbuffed CP-generators to generate additional CPs:
- Shred: 14053/1.33 = 10566 (3487 loss)
- Rake: 18444/1.33 = 13868 (4576 loss)
- Mangle: 9529/1.33 = 7165 (2364 loss)
- AA: 3030/1.33 = 2278 (752 loss)
I'm going to consciously simplify my math. Even though ferals have different attack speeds, I'm going to assume 1 per second or "1*yellow GCD + 1*AA" penalty for every unbuffed CP-generator. So, is it a good idea to go from 2-CP SR to 3 or 4? If I use the same "73.2% chancee for a critical strike" logic as above, then by casting an ability I would have 3CPs (26.8%) and 4CPs (73.2%). Let's calculate the average SR duration based on this:
Now, if I have 2 CPs and decide to use a yellow unbuffed ability to increase the duration of my SR, this is how the investment would look like:(24*0.268) + (29*0.732) = 27.66 seconds on average
Yikes. All of them are worse than their initial 2-CP counterpart, and two are even more devastating than a 1-CP SR. However, I am going to view that example too just in case:Mangle example:
2364 (Mangle) + 752 (AA) + 4933 (average CP value) + 14,060.88 (investment for 2-CP SR) = 22,109.88
22,109.88/27.66 = 799.34
Shred example:
3487 (Shred) + 752 (AA) + 4933 (average CP value) + 14,060.88 (investment for 2-CP SR) = 23,232.88
23,232.88/27.66 = 839.95
Rake example:
4576 (Rake) + 752 (AA) + 4933 (average CP value) + 14,060.88 (investment for 2-CP SR) = 24,321.88
24,321.88/27.66 = 879.32
1-CP SR -> 2 CPs (26.8%) or 3 CPs (73.2%)
Now, if I have 1 CP and decide to use a yellow unbuffed ability to increase the duration of my SR, this is how the investment would look like:(19*0.268) + (24*0.732) = 22.66 seconds on average
Mangle example:
2364 (Mangle) + 752 (AA) + 4933 (average CP value) + 11212.88 (investment for 1-CP SR) = 19,261.88
19,261.88/22.66 = 850.04
Shred example:
3487 (Shred) + 752 (AA) + 4933 (average CP value) + 11212.88 (investment for 1-CP SR) = 20,384.88
20,384.88/22.66 = 899.6
Rake example:
4576 (Rake) + 752 (AA) + 4933 (average CP value) + 11212.88 (investment for 1-CP SR) = 21,473.88
21,473.88/22.66 = 947.66
Conclusions:
1) The more CPs we invest in SR, the smaller the dps sanction becomes.
2) Going from 4-CP SR -> 5-CP SR is a misplay unless you suspect that a CC is going to be overwritten, or Berserk is active.
3) Having two enablers at start for SR is a misplay despite how many CPs you might get for SR. Same goes to using unbuffed yellow abilities midfight.Edited: February 15, 2023 Reason: minor edit
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