Slice of Life & CannabisCountryClub Counter-raid VS of Pokemonz {MoP-Frostwolf}

[-Notorious-]

I'm tired of being told "Don't feed the troll." You have your strong opinion, but I think you are the only one. Several people has already commented on how incorrect you are, so I'm just going to go with the majority.

The majority that posted here are from your guild, which is PvE. Hardly a good sample size to agree with on what constitutes balanced PvP.

BGs and Rated BGs are fun regardless if you are full geared or not. World PvP is fun even if you outnumber them. And Capital City raids are fun even if half the city is AFK. Even trying to counter City Raids against your faction is fun, even if you die countless times. Winning isn't what makes it fun. It's the company that you are in. PvP is about enjoying yourself and enjoying it with others. Finding that challenge and laughing at your errors, learning from them and then telling the story about how bad you failed or how well you did. Because in the end, doing only Arenas because you are fully geared is far more boring than watching 80 days of that caterpillar crawl across the desert. I guess that my Alliance PvE guild that has a r1 mage from WotLK makes my Alliance guild r1 PvP guild also.

Why do you assume that arenas are only about winning? I've easily learned far more since I started playing arenas seriously than I did while mindlessly BG spamming for 8 years. When you do 3v3 with friends, it is just like you stated, it is for fun and about enjoying yourself whether winning or losing (check my match history, I've lost plenty of games with my friends and we kept going purely because we were having fun). But just because you don't enjoy doing arenas doesn't mean that arenas aren't the pinnacle of PvP, that is an objective fact, PvP is balanced around them, and the "best" PvPers on retail are considered those that have seasonal gladiator titles. You not enjoying them doesn't change that fact.

Post

I actually completely agree with almost everything you posted. All three matter, but you will consistently notice one thing... Those that are good at arenas tend to be good at duelling and BGs. Doing arenas teaches you many things outside of which macros to use and what class is good at what. It also teaches you when to use your burst, where to situate yourself, how to peel for healers, etc. You can probably learn all those things in a BG too, but BGs are usually too unbalanced and will take a longer time to learn these things. You will probably not learn anything except for how to lag in World PvP so I don't even consider that a good environment to judge PvP players...

Why you all arguing with this Notorious guy? It's obvious he can't see more wide than his arena rating and e-peen.
Sometimes when people choose to be ignorant it's best to let them be ignorant

I barely play arenas right now, and haven't even gotten to 2.2k as when I do have time to play, I set up Rated BGs. My views are purely based on what the retail community thinks, and what Blizzard themselves have admitted to. They balance PvP around 3v3. Most PvP players prefer arenas over BGs (again, see any retail PvP streamer and take a look at what they do with their time...)

Ironically, if I'm being ignorant by stating that arenas are the most important PvP outlet, then I can turn around and say you're being ignorant by ignoring them, simply because you don't like them.

I have consistently stated why I believe arenas to be superior. It's because that is how Blizzard has made this game and what the retail (and at large) PvP community consider them to be so.

Then again, more so to your point, it is my own idiocy trying to talk about what the PvP community thinks to be important with a bunch of PvE players that have a hate for the very thing that PvP is balanced around. I'm not going to go and say that Random BGs and World PvP aren't fun to some, I'm sure they are. Not to me, and not to many others. It is usually a boring snoozefest in GY camping the horde, so many don't even queue for it. The larger PvP community would rather go spend their time in arena, because they find that fun. For someone to go and judge those players, and tell them they aren't "decent" because YOU don't like arenas is pretty incorrect, specially when, again, Blizzard decides how PvP will be player out in that very environment.

[Ironelf]

In either case, a PvP guild's number one focus should be arenas. This is what WoW PvP is balanced around, and that is what I was getting at. If a PvP guild has no players in the top arena positions, then they should be questioning their designation as a "PvP" guild.

Man, now you made me want to argue. Thanks.

So, by your logic, guilds that focus on BGs and never do arenas are PvE guilds? Cause there are PvP and there are PvE guild. And then there's those that do both. Apparently if guild does world PvP and BG PvP, but doesn't do or doesn't focus on arena PvP then that guild is not considered as PvP as well. We all get that PvP gets primarily balanced around arenas, it's not rocket science, but that doesn't mean that PvP guild is only that which has focus on arena. Because this is the statement you started this argument with.

The majority that posted here are from your guild, which is PvE. Hardly a good sample size to agree with on what constitutes balanced PvP.

Sure and all those people that are doing BGs and world PvP in our guild are actually doing PvE, but they just don't know it and wear ARENA armor for no reason, because all that PvP power is useless there.

[-Notorious-]

So, by your logic, guilds that focus on BGs and never do arenas are PvE guilds? Cause there are PvP and there are PvE guild. And then there's those that do both.

I call those guilds social guilds, because they do PvP just to play with friends, not for the sake of genuinely competing with players of their own skill. Random BGs and World PvP are not competitive and never will be, please stop trying to tell me those are the settings by which PvP should be judged, its a pretty stupid statement, and you know it too I'm sure.

Apparently if guild does world PvP and BG PvP, but doesn't do or doesn't focus on arena PvP then that guild is not considered as PvP as well.

We all get that PvP gets primarily balanced around arenas, it's not rocket science, but that doesn't mean that PvP guild is only that which has focus on arena. Because this is the statement you started this argument with.

In the second part of your paragraph you know yourself what a true competitive environment for PvP is... arenas. It is balanced and so is where the real competition happens. PvP by nature is competitive. If you are doing PvP just for the sake of playing with friends, then see above, you are a social guild. Hence it follows a PvP guild would focus on arenas. Like you said, its not really rocket science, is it?

Sure and all those people that are doing BGs and world PvP in our guild are actually doing PvE, but they just don't know it and wear ARENA armor for no reason, because all that PvP power is useless there.

No, they aren't doing PvE. They're enjoying farming a bunch of undergeared people in BGs together as friends. Its more a social thing than a PvP thing for sure.

Let me give you another setting you're more familiar with. If me and my friends go and do a bunch of quests in Karasang Wild, are we now a PvE guild? After all, we just did player vs. environment right?

No. We don't go around claiming to be a PvE guild, because quite frankly we didn't do what real PvE is. Similarly, guilds doing Random BGs and World PvP aren't PvP guilds, they are social guilds (precisely the label I would apply to a guild questing together).

I doubt you still understand, because I can tell you guys don't arena at all. You just want to come here and tell all Alliance players they aren't PvP players because, unlike you, they understand what balance is and enjoy playing against each other in a balanced environment.

[Callisto93]

As long as I am getting critted 120k*3 by elemental shamans, 280k by dragon roars and 230k by starsomething from balance druids, I will not agree that arenas are balanced. Every second combo is war/healer or lock/shaman. And I'm not even gonna start about hybrid classes that heal as much as they hit. Nothing here is balanced.
And no, it is not true that if you're good in arena you will be also good at bgs and duels. It's much easier to defend your healer against 1-2 dps than it is to defend it against 8-10. It's much easier to cc one target than it is to cc 2-3, and do dmg, and defend your bg mates. Half of ccs that you have to use in arena are useless in bgs cause it's almost obligatory to have an aff lock, who will break most ccs with dot dmg. It just cannot compare.
Plus, there is no guild that does bg and wpvp but not arena. I have 2.2k, my gm has 2.2k, everybody in our rated bg core has 2k+ but we simply do not stress about it. And quite honestly, with all the win traders around and people who can get from 2.2k to 2.7k over night, rating is hardly worth anything at the moment.

[Ironelf]

/snippety snip

I was hoping for a good reply that could be on a track of convincing me I may be wrong, but I won't refuse a good laugh I had from your post.

Here, let me reply with another funny thing, so we can both laugh: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTO5yiN1b-I

[ilyanah]

Good job Cannabis and Slice! I am happy to see leaders of Horde rise up and do these kinds of World PvP. Next time, I shall join you in an event like this along with my army. Cheers :D!

[Panofsky]

I'm tired of being told "Don't feed the troll." You have your strong opinion, but I think you are the only one. Several people has already commented on how incorrect you are, so I'm just going to go with the majority. PvP is not only about Arenas but can be quite entertaining. BGs and Rated BGs are fun regardless if you are full geared or not. World PvP is fun even if you outnumber them. And Capital City raids are fun even if half the city is AFK. Even trying to counter City Raids against your faction is fun, even if you die countless times. Winning isn't what makes it fun. It's the company that you are in. PvP is about enjoying yourself and enjoying it with others. Finding that challenge and laughing at your errors, learning from them and then telling the story about how bad you failed or how well you did. Because in the end, doing only Arenas because you are fully geared is far more boring than watching 80 days of that caterpillar crawl across the desert. I guess that my Alliance PvE guild that has a r1 mage from WotLK makes my Alliance guild r1 PvP guild also.

What he is trying to say it's simply that he find more funny the fact to play in a more balanced environment, as much as you like to play random bgs and world pvp or city raids with your guild. As much as you like to play with your guild mates, he likes to play with his arena teamates because wow, aside from duels, it's always a game you have to enjoy playing with someone else. And playing only arena matches all day long doesn't mean that you will win all of them or that your only goal it's to reach the rank 1. Many players join the 2s or even the 3s bracket with teams made for the sake of fun or just to try new class/spec combinations. It's quite a fact that the arena brackets are definetly more balanced than a random bg where you may be zerged 20vs1 but just because a pvp player is arena addicted doesn't mean that he is better than a bg hero. Nabs are everywhere, or you wouldn't meet some teams at 1,5k rating even at the end of the season.

[AURYIA]

What he is trying to say it's simply that he find more funny the fact to play in a more balanced environment, as much as you like to play random bgs and world pvp or city raids with your guild. As much as you like to play with your guild mates, he likes to play with his arena teamates because wow, aside from duels, it's always a game you have to enjoy playing with someone else. And playing only arena matches all day long doesn't mean that you will win all of them or that your only goal it's to reach the rank 1. Many players join the 2s or even the 3s bracket with teams made for the sake of fun or just to try new class/spec combinations. It's quite a fact that the arena brackets are definetly more balanced than a random bg where you may be zerged 20vs1 but just because a pvp player is arena addicted doesn't mean that he is better than a bg hero. Nabs are everywhere, or you wouldn't meet some teams at 1,5k rating even at the end of the season.

Oh, I'm not arguing what his preference of PvP style is. I'm just simply stating that a PvP guild isn't all about having top ladder r1, r2, r3 in your guild. That PvP is all about a balance of EVERYTHING PvP related, including World PvP, Arenas, Rated and Random Battlegrounds and City Raids. Apparently anything that aren't Arenas are considered PvE. The only guild worthy of being considered in that PvP guild brackets are those that ONLY do Arenas and must have high ratings. At least in his eyes.

A PvP guild would then be judged by what percentage of their player base is represented in the arena ladder. But never can a PvP guild consider itself that unless it has a good portion of people in the top ladders.

I was just pointing out how AURIYA said all the decent PvP guilds have moved to Horde, when in reality, all the "decent" PvP players are on Alliance doing what PvP players do, arenas. Doing world PvP is closer to doing PvE than really fighting players.

I call those guilds social guilds, because they do PvP just to play with friends, not for the sake of genuinely competing with players of their own skill. Random BGs and World PvP are not competitive and never will be.
If you are doing PvP just for the sake of playing with friends, then see above, you are a social guild. Hence it follows a PvP guild would focus on arenas.
No, they aren't doing PvE. They're enjoying farming a bunch of undergeared people in BGs together as friends. Its more a social thing than a PvP thing for sure.
No. We don't go around claiming to be a PvE guild, because quite frankly we didn't do what real PvE is. Similarly, guilds doing Random BGs and World PvP aren't PvP guilds, they are social guilds.

[Ironelf]

What he is trying to say it's simply that he find more funny the fact to play in a more balanced environment, as much as you like to play random bgs and world pvp or city raids with your guild. As much as you like to play with your guild mates, he likes to play with his arena teamates because wow, aside from duels, it's always a game you have to enjoy playing with someone else. And playing only arena matches all day long doesn't mean that you will win all of them or that your only goal it's to reach the rank 1. Many players join the 2s or even the 3s bracket with teams made for the sake of fun or just to try new class/spec combinations. It's quite a fact that the arena brackets are definetly more balanced than a random bg where you may be zerged 20vs1 but just because a pvp player is arena addicted doesn't mean that he is better than a bg hero. Nabs are everywhere, or you wouldn't meet some teams at 1,5k rating even at the end of the season.

You're defending something that wasn't even being questioned, but since you brougt it up let me write unnecesarilly long post;

There's a situation where fotm spec is, let's say, ele shaman and ele shaman can kick much more *** than, for example, enh shaman. So you play enh shaman and you enter arena with 2 other enh shamans, and you see that on other side there's 3 ele shamans. They wreck your team with no problem, if we assume that skill is similar in both teams. Now, what do you do? You switch your comp a little bit. Change some specs. You balance your team by yourself. So next time, instead of triple enh, you go enh/ele/resto and you stand better chances. You balanced your game. Same thing with BGs. Each team will make optimal selection to try and be better than other team. Only thing here, you don't have only 3 characters to switch, you have 10. 10 on each side, and by some silly math, there's bigger chance that teams will be more balanced in 10v10 scenario. Why? Because noobs get carried and pros carry. Stuff averages out more precisely when you have bigger pool of players. This is balance.
And now you want to ask me, but why are there situations where pug gets overrun and loses in 5 mins with score 0:3. Simple, it's pug. Same thing happens in arena when 2 randoms decide they gonna conquer world only to end up having 5 matches lost in a row. The higher you climb the ladder the more balanced stuff gets because people are more equal in skill. Same thing with battlegrounds; if you take 5 decent people from your guild you can communicate with, you can give better fight. And finally if you take 10 really good players into rated BG then stuff gets interesting, because you won't go against 10 pugs (usually), but rather 10 similarly skilled players. And battle will be much more balanced than you think.

Unfortunatelly, rated BGs are rare sight here on Warmane. And top rated BGing comparable to top rated arens are next to non-existant. Only few PvE guilds trying to get things moving, but same faction BGs being disabled ain't helpin the cause.

[Kamaqt]

''''pvp players care for only arena rating'' ? what are you smoking ? BG'S ,Rated's, World pvp, why would you mention reward, some people are just having fun doing this, while caped, but i guess in the end it's just matter of taste. And pleas stop with the arena, just check in armory how many from top 100 are human race, and some one tallked about fair gameplay here!?

[-Notorious-]

Sorry guys I forgot about this thread, but I still didn't get my answer yet :/

Are:
Questing, Fishing, Cooking, Talking with friends all PvE? Because it seems I do more PvE than PvP in that case...

I guess every guild is just a PvE guild after all, since people only play for PvP or PvE right, there's no such thing as playing for the social aspect of WoW. Nope sir, its either PvP or PvE.

NOTE:
For those who don't understand what I mean, what I'm getting at is that World PvP and Random BGs are both forms of social activities done for social reasons, NOT PvP reasons. The real PvP is in arenas and rated BGs.

[Panofsky]

You're defending something that wasn't even being questioned, but since you brougt it up let me write unnecesarilly long post;

There's a situation where fotm spec is, let's say, ele shaman and ele shaman can kick much more *** than, for example, enh shaman. So you play enh shaman and you enter arena with 2 other enh shamans, and you see that on other side there's 3 ele shamans. They wreck your team with no problem, if we assume that skill is similar in both teams. Now, what do you do? You switch your comp a little bit. Change some specs. You balance your team by yourself. So next time, instead of triple enh, you go enh/ele/resto and you stand better chances. You balanced your game. Same thing with BGs. Each team will make optimal selection to try and be better than other team. Only thing here, you don't have only 3 characters to switch, you have 10. 10 on each side, and by some silly math, there's bigger chance that teams will be more balanced in 10v10 scenario. Why? Because noobs get carried and pros carry. Stuff averages out more precisely when you have bigger pool of players. This is balance.
And now you want to ask me, but why are there situations where pug gets overrun and loses in 5 mins with score 0:3. Simple, it's pug. Same thing happens in arena when 2 randoms decide they gonna conquer world only to end up having 5 matches lost in a row. The higher you climb the ladder the more balanced stuff gets because people are more equal in skill. Same thing with battlegrounds; if you take 5 decent people from your guild you can communicate with, you can give better fight. And finally if you take 10 really good players into rated BG then stuff gets interesting, because you won't go against 10 pugs (usually), but rather 10 similarly skilled players. And battle will be much more balanced than you think.

As you have stated, rated bgs are quite rare on warmane. So, when we talk about bgs, at least when I talk about bgs (also because I've played mainly in the wotlk expansion, where rated bgs haven't been released), we mean random battlegrounds. As far as I remember on molten you had the chance to create bg premades composed only by five players (I don't know if they have fixed this bug actually), so even if you try to organize a more coordinated party you will still have to deal with some random pugs who have joined your same battleground, being them only 5, 10 or even 35. Not to mention that you will never know if your enemy team is composed by premades itself. This makes the battleground scenario definetly more unbalanced than the arena one, where you have to coordinate yourself with your teammates and invite them in your arena team, if you really wanna reach your main goals, being them to reach the rank 1 or simply to get the pvp gear you need. Now, this doesn't mean that the good pvp players care only about arena, there are many good players which don't join arena matches all night long but they like to hav some fun in the battlegrounds. Skill is personal and subjective, pvp balance is not. And I find your first argument quite invalid, because creating an arena team composed only by the same class/spec leads to a scenario which is more related to the duels, which nobody has ever found balanced on wow. The higher balance you reach on the 3vs3 bracket is determined by the fact that you can combine different specs and classes in order to profit from all their specific abilities, something you would not find in a 3 enhancement shaman team.

[Grondog]

For those who don't understand what I mean, what I'm getting at is that World PvP and Random BGs are both forms of social activities done for social reasons, NOT PvP reasons. The real PvP is in arenas and rated BGs.

Yeah? Well, that just like, your opinion, man.

[Ironelf]

Yeah? Well, that just like, your opinion, man.

The Grondog abides.

[Arson]

I'm only replying to say "Hi Toptier & Hi Ducess" /facepalm gaps in pants.