The one I'm using is called RogueDPS.xls, it was originally posted here: http://web.archive.org/web/201302090...s_spreadsheet/. It's a very good spreadsheet but I think the Roguecraft one was better (it also modelled things like energy pooling for Mutilate, this one does not) only I've not been able to find the BC version of Roguecraft anywhere.
edit: scrap that, I've just found it here! https://www.ulozto.net/!NykrRSWN/rog...t-bc-0-4-1-xls seems to be a spreadsheet for 3.0 though -_-
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Edited: August 10, 2017
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Which 4 pieces are you going with? Personally it looks to me like it's going to be helm, gloves, legs and shoulders. The wasted expertise on the hydross shoulders makes them worth a bit less than the t5 ones iirc. Though the difference between using Brigand's or t5 chest is marginal, whereas the theoretical output of lurker shoulders instead of t5 shoulders is lower, the reduced RNG in your DPS is really worth it. So I'm not too sure what I am going to use myself.
As for weapons it's really a toss up, atm the safest bet is likely DSx2 or DS MH + Talon OH untill we got numbers for Rod.Edited: August 10, 2017
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Ohai. I did actually recalc it all. Here's a complete list.
T5
Pendant of the Perilous
T5
Black-Iron Battlecloak (Will cost a small fortune, Vengeance Wrap will be better once we get Epic gems from T6).
T5
Bracers of Eradication
Gloves of the Searing Grip
Belt of One-Hundred Deaths
T5
Warboots of Obliteration
Ring of Reciprocity
Band of the Ranger-General
Dragonspine Trophy
Tsunami Talisman
(Solarian's Sapphire)
Dragonstrike (Until proven otherwise (Rod/Talon))
Dragonstrike (Until proven otherwise (Rod/Talon))
Serpent Spine Longbow (Barrel-Blade Longrifle will be better once we get epic gems).
I did reconsider (from our last talk) and will instead go for Exp Gloves + Belt. This will put me at 2.76% Dodge Reduction (3% is cap).
I'm currently using Ring of a Thousand Marks and Shaffar's Band of Brutality. Once I get T5 legs, I will replace Shaffar with the Shapeshifter's Signet. Once I get the Vashj Belt (at this point I'll have the AA Exp Gloves too) I'll be switching back to w/e rings I have (KT + Kazzak Rings pref). Having full T5 BiS (following my list), you'll end up with 9.63% Hit (+1% from Precision using my spec). In other words Warboots of Ob > Utter Darkness, although I'll most likely get Utter Darkness in the meantime.
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I'm not settled on a full set myself, I'm deciding on a week by week basis. I have Dragonstrike + Talon of Azshara at the moment, it's likely I will stick with this unless I have no competition on ROD when we get KT down, I still don't have any belt (using Eva's green). I have Red Belt pattern (and made one for our ret) but I'm waiting on the Vashj belt to drop, if that doesn't pan out I will eventually just make Red Belt for myself when Vortexes free up. Shoulders depends on drops but either T5 or Hydross Leather ones, gloves will be Martial Perfection as I have them already, and I have the T5 legs already. I'm using T4 chest/helm at the moment and I've agreed to pass on the Karathress chest, which is in high demand, it's unlikely I will loot T5 helm/chest soon.
Trinkets, honestly at this rate I don't expect trinket upgrades before BT. We have had 1 Dragonspine but it went to our Enhance who just retired, and no Tsunami has dropped, so looking at the long game maybe Madness of the Betreyer and keep using Hourglass + Bloodlust brooch for T6 progress. It really depends how long this tier lasts before Warmane release T6... In retail days you would never spend enough time in T5 to get your BIS setup, and bar 1 ring and my belt I'm already geared to clear T6 comfortably.
Losing our Enhance shaman has been the biggest killer, it adds more dps than any gear. Ours was using Annihilator crafted vanilla axe also, 600 armor ignore applied to the boss with 100% uptime.Edited: August 11, 2017
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Ow man, that sucks. We didn't even get a DST yet so I'm not keeping any hopes up on that one. Which guild do you play in btw? And that Annihilator axe, interesting.
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I play in Feenix Headquarters. I joined them initially to tank their 2nd Kara group way back when the server was fresh and somehow that sort of all stumbled into a laid back but decent 25man guild where I got to dps main spec. But yeah we had a DST drop on one of our early Gruul kills which went to our GM the Enhance shaman, he was also using Annihilator for 600 armor ignore and experimenting with 2 other different weapons (lower proc chance on those) that also give another 600 armor ignore. Prior to our enhance quitting our Melee group setup/synergy was pretty crazy, we were literally wrecking (that's history until we find another enhance).
Annihilator on the Enhance seemed 100% worth it, but the other weapons not so much due to lower proc rate and also the Shaman having to sacrifice his main hand, since with Annihilator he could just dump it in the offhand and put Flametongue on it and the dps loss was relatively minimal, while the gain was worth it for tank threat and the crazy dps synergy our melee group had.
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Accidently deleted my previous post. I was saying that this axe armor reduction shouldnt stack with sunder armor (check wowwiki).
Concerning mace, according to EJ discussion its 2DS / DS + Rod > DS + Talon. Though imo after extensive testing on the server Ive noticed that the uptime of 2 DS is still a huge gain over one (around +25% uptime from the 2nd DS. So imo, double DS > all. Dont forget haste scale exponentially with flurry and BL and the more haste, the more proc you will get.
Real question for me is, is replacing Dragonmaw with a T5 weapon worth it ?
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Right or wrong, the axe is stacking currently with Sunder. Edit : WoWhead suggests it did stack with Sunder/FF, so it's not wrong.
Also personally from my own testing and calculations I don't feel dual Dragonstrike is worth it. I've had 50% uptime on some fights with just main hand, but that massive uptime doesn't translate to massively more on 2 weapons because of all the overlap. The pawn sheet has dual maces in T5 calculated at 53% average, which is about right for most fights (sometimes you will see lower, sometimes higher), and with those numbers it's comfortably behind the other offhand options.
Looking at a lot of the theorycraft back then it's quite primitive too, some guy had a mess around on the PTR and decided it was BIS.. Some other guy came top of the dps meter and beat his friend, so decided it was BIS, you have to trim through a lot of nooby nonsense.. In Landsouls sheet infact just 1 Dragonstrike was only marginally ahead of other weapons (Syphon, Talon of Phoenix) and behind S3 weapon, and there was just as much talk around saying it wasn't worth going 2x Dragonstrike due to the proc not stacking.
It's really not much worth taking too much weight in random EJ discussions and posts from the time, and better to figure it out now.Edited: August 11, 2017
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After 3h hitting the dummies without any buff I get 53% uptime and have witnessedvas much as 65% uptime on fights like magtheridon fully buffed with BL / WF and using haste potion.
With only main hand I have around 35-40% uptime unbuffed and with only offhand 25-30% still unbuff. My average flurry uptime unbuffed is 73% btw.
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I don't buy those numbers, I've done hours of testing and we run 3 Fury Warriors all running maces and the highest I've seen is 61% dualing maces.. For a second there I thought you said your average mace uptime was 73%. BTW 73% Flurry uptime is fairly low for a raid buffed T5 Warrior.
I think the issue here is you taking what was possible and what happened once and equating that as the norm, it's like taking the best RNG and considering that the average, you're going to get wonky results and you can't base your gearing around stars aligning RNG. Just like I can't base the value of Dragonstrike around the 50% uptime I got on main hand one Morogrim kill.
You have to take all data, as much as you can and come to an average based on that, not data skewed by RNG glory runs. Just as you talk about RNG glory runs, Kiszh in this thread whispering me paranoid that Warmane have nerfed the maces because he got such bad uptime during a raid with his 2x Dragonmaw. RNG happens, you gotta iron that out to come to a median.Edited: August 11, 2017
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Im not yet T4 BiS and these were unbuffed value. You can check my armory (same forum name). Your warriors probably werent chugging Haste potion the way I am (plus running 4 drums).
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We do run 4x Drums, one of our Warriors (the one who got 61% uptime) is also potion chugger, I'm not personally as I don't see the point unless it's progression with a dps check, they are too expensive for me to be chugging away.
Also you seem to have things wrong when you suggest that Flurry + Dragonstrike is exponential stacking, rather it's that you need exponential ammounts of it to keep pushing the attack speed faster.. This is how your attack speed looks if you add different buffs.
Base = 2.7
Mongoose = 2.65 (0.05 drop)
Mongoose x2 = 2.6 (0.1 drop)
Flurry + 1x Mongoose = 2.12
Flurry = 2.16 (0.54 drop)
Dragonstrike = 2.38 (0.32 drop)
Dragonstrike + Flurry = 1.90 (0.8 drop, less than the sum of the previous 2)
Dragonstrike + Flurry + Mongoose = 1.87 (0.83 from base)
The more you stack the more you need to stack to increase the speed further by the same value, so the only thing that is exponential is how much haste you need to increase the speed beyond a certain point, of course from the new reference the percentages are consistent across the board, but the idea that some exponential scaling is going on to increase your dps with more haste is completely wrong, in actual fact it's pretty much the opposite since Haste reduces flurry uptime and scales much better with other stats than it does with itself.
Of course yes more haste does increase the Dragonstrike proc uptime you have, but you're talking marginal progressive gains here, and on the offhand a lot of it goes into overlap and is wasted. Yes it's possible to have over 60%, but one cannot just jump to conclusions based on some good luck, you need a lot of data and I've seen everything to suggest so far that 53% is a very close average uptime for dual wielding Dragonmaw/Strike in a raid environment in T5.Edited: August 11, 2017
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Im not talking about stacking haste but stacking haste source. You get more fwith15% from two different source than 30% from one source
AS = WS / ((HasteSourceA/100+1)* (HasteSourceB/100+1))
AS = WS / (1.134*1.25) in the case of mace proc + flurry
AS = WS / 1.42
Haste from different source is multiplicative not additive
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Yes but this isn't giving you any special exponential gains, the value of haste (for example stat weights) is already well determined with this in mind. Haste is additive with itself but multiplicative with attack speed (mongoose/flurry) but this is not the same as it being "exponential", there is no increasing or growing curve, it is static and linear. The way you speak about it is as if this isn't already accounted for when weighing up the value of haste to begin with, when really there is nothing special going on here.
Back on Dragonstrike, even at 25% offhand uptime (after overlap, just pure 25% contribution counted from offhand) we still arrive at a place where offhand Dragonstrike is only equal to Talon of Azshara while being dual-wielded, and it would still be firmly behind Wicked Edge of the Plains (hypothetical) or Rod of the Sun King... But then Rod has its own issues, it's only really valuable when the rage itself is valuable, so fights where you take more damage (lets say Void Reaver) really don't favour it because they devalue the proc by providing an excess of rage.
If you apply 25% to Dragonmaw (so that's approx 60% overall uptime) it's still comfortably worse than all T5 dps weapons (so Netherbane, Claw of Phoenix, Rod, Talon, Merciless Glad weap etc) in the offhand while dual-wielded.Edited: August 11, 2017
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I think there are a few misunderstandings. Indeed haste rating is linear, but I was talking about stacking haste source to increase overall haste value. In this regard I was actually wrong in thinking its exponential when its actually logarithmic (the more uniform the source, the greater the gain is 1.1*1.1*1.1*1.1*1.1 > 1.05*1.05*1.05*1.05*1.3 > 1.1*1.4 > 1.5 these values are random but there here to illustrate the the idea since I cant make a graph from my phone).
Second misunderstanding is about how much we value haste, you value it less than I do, and therefore I would like to know why, so if you can explain to me (or better show me the math on how you value haste), that would be awesome.
Ill explain how i value haste once I can type on something more practical than a smartphone (it will take time to type).
Btw, the base chance of a boss to dodge is 5.6%, 6.5% being the wotlk value (https://web.archive.org/web/20150802...tection-guide/ section VII c.)
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