WotLK WotLK 3.3.5 Arpen capped bis unholy dk build

[xTheLichKingx]

I had crystallized build here or something along these lines for single target capped arp.
Glyps
Disease
Ghoul
Dark Death

I had some sheet with all the things and damage I trade for what, everything cool and stuff, best build from all these pipe dream arp builds.
Can't find it, dont care, have fun with your build.

P.S


for the next 20 sec.

Of course for the next 20 seconds, but that's everytime frost fever steals attack speed which is something you're not understanding

[xTheLichKingx]

Again a few things, just so anyone that actually reads through all this isn't misinformed,

1. Unholy Blight works exactly like Ignite/Deep wounds. It's basically a 10% increase to Death Coil damage.

2. Frost Fever does not refresh Icy Talons when it deals damage lmao. It refreshes it when it is applied. As an example, when you roll with Glyph of Disease (sort of a special interaction) or when you cast Icy Touch/Chains of Ice.

3. The build the OP is advertising so hard is worse than the meta build from 9 years ago. Both in single and multi-target, although the difference in single target as predicted by Kahories isn't necessarily huge (~111 dps).

4. Despite what the OP may claim, this spec doesn't serve any particular purpose aside from being hipster.

5. Thydus mentions clipping dots with Pestilence, but that only occurs if you're not using Glyph of Disease, which, admittedly, is most of the time, however, the OP mentions GoD explicitly for his setup so what Thydus is saying in the first part of his post is bull****. Secondly, Reaping is only slightly benefitial in full BiS and only on fights that are extremely static and you have no downtime (e.g. festergut, rotface, dbw). Basically read that it's not worth it for the fights that matter.

6. Which server you're on for this particular discussion doesn't matter in the slightest. Lordaeron has bosses with shorter enrage timer and more HP, but the class mechanics remain the same. There's some extreme speculation, mainly from Lordaeron players that boss damage is also buffed, but as of writing this post I've not seen any dev confirm/deny this. If anyone can, please do so or even better, if Mercy (can't tag sadly) can forward this question to warmane's dev team it would be lovely.

To summarise:

The OP is someone that isn't very aware of how the class works in several areas (Unholy Blight, Icy Talons) and hasn't used sims properly. I'd heavily advise against listening to him.

First off, I am very well aware of exactly how my class works, in faaaaar more ways than you know, and all these questions I have are to reinforce my understanding of my knowledge, thank you very much.

1). No if it's an exact 10% increase that's not how ignite works. Ignite stacks infinitely, and is 40% of all the damage as a dot but the dot grows infinitely, so instead of doing only 40% damage that damage can do an infinite amount of damage assuming the ignite never falls off. Unholy blight doesn't work like that, it's ONLY 10% damage, and that damage is distributed by 10% per tick, and when additional deathcoil damage is done it adds to a total damage count divided by 10 to reach the value of unholy blights damage is based on (10% of deathcoil damage) so then the damage per second is the total damage pool of what hasn't been distributed.
Perhaps numbers will make it simpler for you because you obviously don't understand that you're wrong, UB = unholy blight, IG = ignite
3k death coil, UB = 300 damage, 3 seconds go by, 90 damage done, 210 remaining, another 3k deathcoil, total unholy blight = 510, 51 dps, etc
3k fireball, IG = 1200 damage over 4 seconds, 3 seconds go by 900 damage done, another 3k fireball, IG = 2400 damage over 4 seconds, 3600 over 4,etc,etc the damage stacks infinitely and is not a 40% increase in all your damage but is a 40% base increase that continues doing damage infinitely. Fairly certain Deep wounds works this way too, unholy blight used to work this way on previous patches, I'm fairly certain it does NOT work this way on 3.3.5.

2). Then that is a bug and blizzard intended that when a targets attack speed is slowed (aka leeched) icy talons should be present.
Essentially Icy talons = Frost fevers duration +20 seconds as frost fever is supposed to leech the attack speed for the entire duration it is present

3). Kahories has not proven anything, and you have not either. Everything here is entirely theoretics and not a single person has attempted to implement the build, nor considered it viable, or even tried to perfect it. Instead of being against the build and "OMG NO UR BADKID GETGUD METAOP" hop on the band-wagon to try to perfect something new.

4). This spec serves the purpose of doing more raw damage on single target fights that matter (festergut, PP, BQL, Sindy, DBS) on lordaeron, on icecrown ofc single target dps doesn't matter cause you can do LoD easy if properly min/maxed and everyone does what they're supposed to.

5). First off festergut is an extremely hard dps race on lordaeron where everyplayer needs to pull the icecrown equivalent of about 14k dps (10kish dps on lordaeron) so please understand your icecrown server is not where this build is to be used.

6). Icecrown provides a 30% buff whereas lordaeron does not, the bosses are much stronger on lordaeron than on icecrown, more hp, damage, etc Please stop commenting on a server you've not experienced. If you haven't played both lordaeron AND icecrown like I have, then you have no room to discuss both servers mechanics.

[Beanlord]

First off, I am very well aware of exactly how my class works, in faaaaar more ways than you know, and all these questions I have are to reinforce my understanding of my knowledge, thank you very much.

1). No if it's an exact 10% increase that's not how ignite works. Ignite stacks infinitely, and is 40% of all the damage as a dot but the dot grows infinitely, so instead of doing only 40% damage that damage can do an infinite amount of damage assuming the ignite never falls off. Unholy blight doesn't work like that, it's ONLY 10% damage, and that damage is distributed by 10% per tick, and when additional deathcoil damage is done it adds to a total damage count divided by 10 to reach the value of unholy blights damage is based on (10% of deathcoil damage) so then the damage per second is the total damage pool of what hasn't been distributed.
Perhaps numbers will make it simpler for you because you obviously don't understand that you're wrong, UB = unholy blight, IG = ignite
3k death coil, UB = 300 damage, 3 seconds go by, 90 damage done, 210 remaining, another 3k deathcoil, total unholy blight = 510, 51 dps, etc
3k fireball, IG = 1200 damage over 4 seconds, 3 seconds go by 900 damage done, another 3k fireball, IG = 2400 damage over 4 seconds, 3600 over 4,etc,etc the damage stacks infinitely and is not a 40% increase in all your damage but is a 40% base increase that continues doing damage infinitely. Fairly certain Deep wounds works this way too, unholy blight used to work this way on previous patches, I'm fairly certain it does NOT work this way on 3.3.5.

2). Then that is a bug and blizzard intended that when a targets attack speed is slowed (aka leeched) icy talons should be present.
Essentially Icy talons = Frost fevers duration +20 seconds as frost fever is supposed to leech the attack speed for the entire duration it is present

3). Kahories has not proven anything, and you have not either. Everything here is entirely theoretics and not a single person has attempted to implement the build, nor considered it viable, or even tried to perfect it. Instead of being against the build and "OMG NO UR BADKID GETGUD METAOP" hop on the band-wagon to try to perfect something new.

4). This spec serves the purpose of doing more raw damage on single target fights that matter (festergut, PP, BQL, Sindy, DBS) on lordaeron, on icecrown ofc single target dps doesn't matter cause you can do LoD easy if properly min/maxed and everyone does what they're supposed to.

5). First off festergut is an extremely hard dps race on lordaeron where everyplayer needs to pull the icecrown equivalent of about 14k dps (10kish dps on lordaeron) so please understand your icecrown server is not where this build is to be used.

6). Icecrown provides a 30% buff whereas lordaeron does not, the bosses are much stronger on lordaeron than on icecrown, more hp, damage, etc Please stop commenting on a server you've not experienced. If you haven't played both lordaeron AND icecrown like I have, then you have no room to discuss both servers mechanics.

1. Ignite, Deep Wounds and Unholy Blight behave in exactly the same way. It's very easy to see if you simply try them out in-game. That's how they worked on 3.3.5, easily provable by looking inside that world of logs list from Method I gave above. So yes, UB is a 10% damage buff to DC.

2. Firstly, 21 seconds (assuming Epidemic is specced, of course), not 20. Secondly if it were a bug and Blizzard intended to do away with that behaviour I'm certain that there would've been a discussion about it just like there was one regarding 2pT9 mage. Do some research and see if you can find anything (:

3. Kahories is the most accurate sim there is for the class. It's more than enough to disprove your "reinvention of the meta". The burden of proof that your setup is better than the meta is on you though. What depended on me, trying it out in a sim, I did and it turned out that your setup was inferior. End of story imo.

4. The spec has no purpose, nada. It's worse than the meta. If you like it and insist on it, that's fine, I can understand that. Claiming its superiority without proof is something I won't abide with though.

5. It does not matter. The spec behaves the same. We're not discussing how much damage on average you need to pull in order to kill <you name it>. We're discussing whether or not your setup is in any way better than the meta. Whether festergut requires an average of 10k, 20k or 30k dps has nothing to do with what we're talking about.

6. The buff can be turned off and I've done multiple ICCs without it both on 10 and 25 man. But again, the differences when it comes to bosses do NOT matter in this thread.

Lastly, yes, you're absolutely not well aware of how your class works. Basically what J. Allen Brack said with regards to legacy servers, "You think you do, but you don't".

[xTheLichKingx]

1). Then if that's the case unholy blight should not average to be 1% of your overall damage and should average to be about 8% of your overall damage, and on even more extended fights should out damage deathcoil in it's damage or at least should be about 40-50% of the damage deathcoil does. You're wrong bud

2). First off, no, you didn't even read what I said. It's the duration of frost fever AND +20 seconds.

3). Well that remains to be proven. Your simulator may potentially be based on averages, and probably doesn't factor in a dbw haste proc in synchronization with STS proc Rune of the fallen crusader and all the other procs along with engineering gloves proc and shadowmourne proc all active when gargoyle is used, maximizing dps. I will provide proof when I can, but simple as that, I can't currently provide proof. I presented an idea, and if anyone wishes to claim it's a bad idea, I'd like proof not a simulation of averages. I can do math, however, I can't equip the gear, get into a raid environment, account for all the procs and walking/moving, and every other variable a raid environment will propose.

4). Claiming it's inferiority is something I will not obide with either. It's an experimental build with absolutely no proof, 0, nada, nothing. If a player wants to disprove it then they should implement it, play it 100% properly, and then show the recount screenshots in game, and even then it's highly likely if that player is against the build and wants to defend the meta build they will likely sabatoge it. Regardless I will provide the results when I can. In the mean time I can only chat about it on the forums and theory craft until the time is ready to implement it and show the results. Until then it's neither been proven better nor worse, and I have not claimed either.

5). Yeah, but if the build can pull more single target dps [which your simulator can NOT accurately predict unless it accounts for every single proc, every single potion used, every cooldown, all in even order, every crit (crit chance alone requires multiple simulations for accuracy and averages don't work for crit) ] then the build is better for single target dps and worse for aoe dps.

6). Regardless, if lordaeron bosses have more hp, damage, armor, resistances, or whatever custom made buffs were done to them, then the 2 servers can't be compared. Simple as that

Also simply put, because you have no clue that ignite/deep wounds stack infinitely and scale infinitely damage wise and unholy blight has no damage scaling and if you let unholy blight fall off and re-apply it (which does nothing to change damage numbers) that shows that YOU have no clue what you're talking about buddy.

[angrylol]

1. Wrong, that's not how it works, you don't recover damage that has ticked away already by refreshing dot. Ignite and UB works the same way aside from % and duration.

2. wtf

3. It is proved beyond any doubts long time ago. You can disprove and show something that proves you have built new meta, so far we have seen nothing from you.

4. Thousands of players have built and tested and raided and ran sims with this build... no they have not because your build is inferior even among arp builds.

5. No one needs your single target dps, if you would have raided you would understand. No one will waste uh spot for uh who cant do his thing.

6. Build who is best will be best in any case, and I doubt they mess with boss armor and resistances.

YOU have no clue what you're talking about buddy.

hueeeennng irony is about to choke me out

[xTheLichKingx]

@angrylol

1). No you're wrong, a simple google check will tell you this, that's why ignite was so overpowered until they nerfed it, because the dot refreshes previous ticked away damage.

2). ???

3). I'm currently unable to play so you will continue seeing nothing from me gameplay wise for a little while until I can provide it.

4). Then make improvements upon it if the build has any inferiorities.

5). This build the unholy dk can still "do his thing" as he can spread the dots, do the aoe dps, drop DnD, he still applies ebon plague for 13% magic dmg and more disease damage, he still does everything and anything he's supposed to do so explain to me how he fails to do his job?

6). No clue, as they don't post exact stat changes

@the last comment you made, do you speak english? hueng? what does that even mean.


Quick question, where is everyone on these forums getting the belief that DBW HC has a 105 second cd instead of 90 second cd. It's in my understanding and knowledge that DBW Normal has a 105 second cd and hc has a 90 second cd
NM uptime is 28% of the time and hc is 33% of the time, from my understanding.

[Beanlord]

1). Then if that's the case unholy blight should not average to be 1% of your overall damage and should average to be about 8% of your overall damage, and on even more extended fights should out damage deathcoil in it's damage or at least should be about 40-50% of the damage deathcoil does. You're wrong bud

Okay, I think I understand. You're just confused. Ignite, Deep Wounds and Unholy Blight take a percentage (40, 40 and 10 respectively) from the damage fire criticals, criticals or death coil, respectively, do. They do this by banking the damage and in theory that damage has no limit. The key part here is that they distribute the damage over a certain amount of time as well. Ignite does it over 4 seconds, so if you were to say crit for only 1k, your full ignite would do (0.4 * 1000 ) / 4, totalling 100 dps per second, cool. DW does the same, but over 6 seconds and UB over 10. To generalise,

(percentage * damage) / time is the formula. Naturally the numbers would be significantly smaller (tick per tick) for UB since the damage is just spread out over a longer dot, but it is nonetheless there and does get banked up. Why is it only about 1% of your total? Because for most fights that do not involve AoE your DC will be about 10% of your total. But let's generalise again, DC will always be some amount of your damage dealt, if the damage from UB corresponds to 0.1 * damage of DC then it's exactly a 10% damage increase to DC. And if you're really interested I'll let you in on a secret..

Spoiler: Show

That's exactly how it is.

2). First off, no, you didn't even read what I said. It's the duration of frost fever AND +20 seconds.

This has never been the case in 3.3.5. I'd be really interested in learning where you've been fed this misinformation.

3). Well that remains to be proven. Your simulator may potentially be based on averages, and probably doesn't factor in a dbw haste proc in synchronization with STS proc Rune of the fallen crusader and all the other procs along with engineering gloves proc and shadowmourne proc all active when gargoyle is used, maximizing dps. I will provide proof when I can, but simple as that, I can't currently provide proof. I presented an idea, and if anyone wishes to claim it's a bad idea, I'd like proof not a simulation of averages. I can do math, however, I can't equip the gear, get into a raid environment, account for all the procs and walking/moving, and every other variable a raid environment will propose.

Personal dps tests and anecdotes are not reliable. There's a pretty good reason that sims were made to begin with. They assume no/little human error, tank and spank fights by default, etc. They are the best way to compare two builds. You may not like this, but it is how things are.

Until then it's neither been proven better nor worse, and I have not claimed either.

But you did. Let me refresh your memory a little,

The dps of this build will more than likely outdps the original unholy dk build.

You made some random build that was mathematically inferior to the original meta build (that took a lot of effort to create and is well rounded in every aspect) whereas this build is mathematically superior especially for lordaeron where single target dps is a must.

Also you claim that you'll do more dps regardless that sims prove my build is superior to yours which I can't understand.

Even in simulations my build outperforms the original build, and that's in a simulation where rng isn't a factor.

So you're both for and against sims when it suits you. Interesting.

5). Yeah, but if the build can pull more single target dps [which your simulator can NOT accurately predict unless it accounts for every single proc, every single potion used, every cooldown, all in even order, every crit (crit chance alone requires multiple simulations for accuracy and averages don't work for crit) ] then the build is better for single target dps and worse for aoe dps.

It can account for everything, even has detailed combat logs that you can read through if you cared enough to use it at all. If you spend enough time you can simulate far more than the default 100 hours of dps it has been set to. But I'm not about to do it for you.

6). Regardless, if lordaeron bosses have more hp, damage, armor, resistances, or whatever custom made buffs were done to them, then the 2 servers can't be compared. Simple as that

They have more hp and a shorter enrage, possibly (but very unlikely until confirmed by dev team) higher damage. Aside from that there are no changes and all of the aforementioned ones do not have anything to do with the discussion.

Also simply put, because you have no clue that ignite/deep wounds stack infinitely and scale infinitely damage wise and unholy blight has no damage scaling and if you let unholy blight fall off and re-apply it (which does nothing to change damage numbers) that shows that YOU have no clue what you're talking about buddy.

I'm not your buddy and I'm definitely not the one that has no clue.

If you can provide me with the tools to do my own simulations I would love that. If you (as a trusty moderator) could provide me with the tools for rawr I would love to implement screenshots of my own simulations.

Oh and we're still waiting on this since Mercy did provide you with those.

Quick question, where is everyone on these forums getting the belief that DBW HC has a 105 second cd instead of 90 second cd. It's in my understanding and knowledge that DBW Normal has a 105 second cd and hc has a 90 second cd
NM uptime is 28% of the time and hc is 33% of the time, from my understanding.

Everywhere. It is 105 seconds ICD. The EJ guide you mentioned and praised in this threat says it, sims use that, you can see it in-game from any addon that tracks ICDs or just whack at it yourself.

[angrylol]

Well damn, I was wrong
we actually gained something from this thread
LichKing dude learned to Edit instead of making double posts!

[Miozeriux]

just came by this thread, you guys do such a time wastin, Gnimo already tested and tried everything :D arp capped unholy does great dmg and will do more dps on single target encounters but generally speaking strenght is better choise because its more versatile choise also makes extreme difference in heavy aoe fights, unholy is the best aoe dps ingame, i dont wanna hurt my aoe dps capping arp and still not being able to top any single target fight, and then possibly not even being able to top aoe fight as well, you can play whatever you want, either arp or str are both viable choises

[xTheLichKingx]

You guys are correct, because nothing will prove you wrong. 2+2 = 22 because you say so.

But if you want a dose of reality, first off you're completely wrong about ignite, because fire mages can do 8k dps but if they can stack their ignite up they can bring their dps up to 20k dps. HOWEVER if they lose their stacks of ignite they will lose IMMENSE amounts of dps. ALSO dps is not current dps in the last couple seconds, it's DPS of the overall fight.

So if it worked the way you say it works, ignite would not be mandatory to hold your stacks and it wouldn't affect fire mages dps by much if they fell off but it does. In fact, if all that saved up damage was let go and the mage stopped dpsing, his dps would be the most it could be because he isn't doing more damage and all the built up damage would cause an increase in dps. Also fire mages wouldn't have the ability to reach such high dps limits if it only did 1 tick and done for their crits.

ALSO if it worked the way you say it does then fire mages would not have a ramp up type of dps and their damage would be flat all throughout the fight.

[xTheLichKingx]

just came by this thread, you guys do such a time wastin, Gnimo already tested and tried everything :D arp capped unholy does great dmg and will do more dps on single target encounters but generally speaking strenght is better choise because its more versatile choise also makes extreme difference in heavy aoe fights, unholy is the best aoe dps ingame, i dont wanna hurt my aoe dps capping arp and still not being able to top any single target fight, and then possibly not even being able to top aoe fight as well, you can play whatever you want, either arp or str are both viable choises

THANK YOU

at least he acknowledges everything I said, and supports my claims. He doesn't agree with the build due to strength being overall more versatile but he does acknowledge arpen cap giving top single target dps. This is what I've been looking for.

So what are your thoughts on having 2 sets, single target build and aoe build?

[angrylol]

Well damn, I was wrong
we actually gained something from this thread
LichKing dude learned to Edit instead of making double posts!

I take this back.

Let me tell you a secret,
Everyone actully plays arp build because its the best, its just a big secret that only few chosen one can know. But you are so smart that you just cracked it and did what millions of players over all these years couldn't do. And now you can join special unholy ARP club in Dalaran tower where we link down our recounts down on peasants running around below.. It is well known meta to do as much single target dps as possible and let some other blokes deal with all the vaklyrs and embers and all that boring stuff, I mean, that doesnt even do damage on boss!

And simulations doesnt count, in actual raids with my arp build I finish LK HC with 25k dps. While all the STR build just spread diseases on ghouls for dps hoarding and finish it with 10k dps.

Also you were right about Scourge Strike Glyph, it warps the time around you so you can do 30 secs worth of runes in 20 secs, all thanks to ARP.

[Beanlord]

But if you want a dose of reality, first off you're completely wrong about ignite, because fire mages can do 8k dps but if they can stack their ignite up they can bring their dps up to 20k dps. HOWEVER if they lose their stacks of ignite they will lose IMMENSE amounts of dps. ALSO dps is not current dps in the last couple seconds, it's DPS of the overall fight.

So if it worked the way you say it works, ignite would not be mandatory to hold your stacks and it wouldn't affect fire mages dps by much if they fell off but it does. In fact, if all that saved up damage was let go and the mage stopped dpsing, his dps would be the most it could be because he isn't doing more damage and all the built up damage would cause an increase in dps. Also fire mages wouldn't have the ability to reach such high dps limits if it only did 1 tick and done for their crits.

ALSO if it worked the way you say it does then fire mages would not have a ramp up type of dps and their damage would be flat all throughout the fight.

It isn't mandatory to hold your Ignite stacks at all. You're not losing anything regardless of when the Ignite damage was dished out. It would still be the same amount of damage and would average out to exactly the same dps. There's no "IMMENSE" loss of dps because you've dropped Ignite due to no crits lol. Maybe you misunderstood the explanation above or I was not clear enough. Let's take a look at another hypothetical example. I'll explain it as if I were to explain it to a child.

Spoiler: Show

Example 1
Assume you do one fireball and it crits for 1,000 damage. Ignite procs and immediately has 400 damage banked up. If this was all you did, that one ignite would be another 100 dps over the next 4 seconds. Simple enough.

Example 2
Assume you do one fireball and it crits for 1,000 damage. Ignite procs and immediately has 400 damage banked up. Two seconds pass and your Ignite has dealt a whopping 200 damage and yet 200 more remain in the bank with 2 seconds of the debuff remainig. In the span of those two remaining seconds you dish out another fireball that crits for 1,000 damage. Here's the kicker, that 400 damage that would normally get banked up from the second crit gets added to the current damage bank and the dot timer is refreshed. So now you have 600 in the bank to distribute over the next four seconds.

Whether or not these two fireball crits were received by your target back to back and immediately set the damage bank to 800 or were received with an interval in my example, does not matter. It's still the same 800 damage.

The exact same principle applies for Deep Wounds and Unholy Blight. The only difference is that the duration and % modifiers of the talents are different.

at least he acknowledges everything I said, and supports my claims. He doesn't agree with the build due to strength being overall more versatile but he does acknowledge arpen cap giving top single target dps. This is what I've been looking for.

Gnimo is a really cool guy and does want to help people but he doesn't deal that well with sims. Sims predict arp being worse and as I've stated above, personal anecdotes and tests do not matter in the grand scheme of things.

What happened to your other snark remarks by the way? Still waiting on the source for Frost Fever refreshing Icy Talons on tick.

[xTheLichKingx]

Bro, what aoe are you even worrying about? Welps on onyxia? Jeez looeezzz. You still do tons of aoe and cause the aoe of everyone else to increase significantly with this build. You lose what? 10% aoe dps maybe 20%. When your aoe is top dps regardless it doesn't matter unless your raid has the unholy dk as literally the only player doing any aoe dps.

Also Scourge strike glyph you were correct about, either Glyph of SS or reaping should be taken, not both.
the build might also be re-balanced around 17-0-54

https://wotlkdb.com/?talent#jfVMVZZf...zx0uIqo:bpLmVM

Link to the build is above

[angrylol]

You still do tons of aoe and cause the aoe of everyone else to increase significantly with this build. You lose what? 10% aoe dps maybe 20%.

And gain what? Insignificant increaase on single target? I don't think you will gain any worthwhile increase, I know I couldn't, and I really tried to find that amazing build to drop everyones jaw. UH is already above average tier single target dps. But if you would seen as many valks dropping people 0.1 sec too late as I am you would understand. Especially on 0% Buff, that was the reason you sad to even make this build.

The fact is that STR > ARP build, you can theorize all day long, but that is not going to change. Rifokelt and I are typing blankets for you, so you can understand how things work, but it just bounces off of you with no effect. You just trip balls about some weird things.