Realms BG premades

[angrylol]

Point is that there are crazy effective players out there. Yes, I get stomped with my 1300 rating and other stuff. Instead of trying to artificially create some "not fair premades" stuff - step up, you have every single resource those mean premades have, same 2 arms, same 2 eyes.

If you want "adventure" where it's all researched how much you will win/lose, how many hours you will be engaged and what you have to do - check out retail or something, they spend a huge amounts of money to make a pecking pidgeon out of you to give you "sense of accomplishment" and all that stuff, so you are special too.

WOTLK is last bastion of "sandbox" game to some extent. It's hugely why it's so popular.

Maybe you can give us 10 things you did to increase your odds before you posted and asked for papa to come save you?

[dccct]

Rated battlegrounds would be a nice solution to alleviate the problem though.

That depends on what you mean by Rated Battlegrounds. I am unfamiliar with the idea and I have seen very different definitions of this term. There is the Blizzard (November 2010) definition of it that resembles how arena teams operate:
https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/ne...tlegrounds-faq
https://www.bluetracker.gg/wow/topic...legrounds-faq/

Spoiler: Show

World of Warcraft: Cataclysm is just around the corner -- and that means Rated Battlegrounds will soon be available. While Rated Battlegrounds will only be open to level-85 characters, we know many of you may still have some questions about this new system, so we’ve put together an FAQ to help address some of the more common inquiries we've seen.

Q. What are Rated Battlegrounds?
A. Like the Arena system, Rated Battlegrounds are an alternative way for players to battle against opponents of similar skill levels and accrue rating to purchase powerful PvP gear. Instead of competing in a 2v2, 3v3, or 5v5 bracket, though, you'll be testing your mettle in familiar environments like Arathi Basin and Eye of the Storm, as well as all-new Battlegrounds set to release in Cataclysm.

Q. How are Rated Battlegrounds structured?
A. Rated Battlegrounds are broken down into two brackets: 10v10 and 15v15. These brackets rotate weekly and can be viewed in-game via the calendar by activating the Battleground holiday filter.

Q. What Battlegrounds are eligible for Rated Battleground matches?
A. Warsong Gulch, Arathi Basin, Eye of the Storm, Strand of the Ancients, Battle for Gilneas, and Twin Peaks.

Q. What happened to the 25v25 bracket?
A. We decided to remove this bracket. We don't feel it's feasible to ask players to coordinate a group of 25 players for Rated Battlegrounds. If any player happens to drop group just before a match begins, the raid group would not be able to enter the battle. We anticipate most players or guilds will stick with fairly dedicated 10-player groups, and making the jump to 15-player groups shouldn't be too difficult.

Q. How can I queue for a Rated Battleground?
A. Before entering the queue, you must first create a raid with the full number of players required for the weekly bracket (10 or 15). Any level-85 player on your realm and of your faction may participate in the battle regardless of guild association.

Once you have a raid of the appropriate size, simply open up the PvP window, click on the Conquest tab, highlight "Rated Battleground," and then click "Join Battle."

Q. Can I queue up solo and just be matched with a Rated Battleground team?
A. No. You will need to first join a raid of the appropriate size and level before you can queue up for a Rated Battleground. Individual queuing will not be available for Rated Battlegrounds.

Q. Do all players in the raid group have to be from the same guild in order to queue for a Rated Battleground?
A. No. So long as the raid group size matches the weekly bracket and is comprised of level-85 players, you can queue up for a Rated Battleground no matter what guild you are in. Guild membership has no effect on the formation of Battleground teams.

Winning a Rated Battleground with a team composed of at least 80% guild members, however, will result in the additional benefit of guild experience gain for that guild.

Q. How can I tell if my Rated Battleground team meets the minimum guild requirement?
A. If you join a Rated Battleground with the minimum number of required guild members, a special guild banner will appear in the upper-left corner of the in-game mini-map. This will let you know if you are eligible for the bonus guild experience.

Q. What are the normal benefits of winning a Rated Battleground?
A. When you win a Rated Battleground, you will be rewarded Conquest points, up to your weekly cap. Weekly caps are individual for each player and are based on your highest single PvP rating from the previous week (the cap resets on Tuesdays). This rating can be derived from your 2v2, 3v3, or 5v5 Arena rating or your Rated Battleground rating.

Q. What Rated Battleground rating do players start out with?
A. Players start at zero Rated Battleground rating and progress upward from there. If you lose a battle, your Rated Battleground rating will only be reduced if that rating is currently higher than your Match Making Value (MMV). For the most part, a rating only goes up.

Q. What’s MMV?
A. Match Making Value (or MMV for short) is our best measure of an individual player's skill. MMV is the skill rating per format (2v2, 3v3, 5v5, Battleground) and per character that is used for matchmaking. It exists to help the matchmaking system create great matches as quickly as possible for all players. It's generally not a rating we show, with the exception of an average MMV for Arena teams.

Q. Will my MMV go down in the event of a Rated Battleground loss?
A. Yes; however, unlike Arenas, all players in a Rated Battleground team will win or lose the same amount of Rated Battleground rating per match depending on its outcome.

Q. Does MMV for Rated Battlegrounds function the same as it does in Arenas (i.e. does it go up more when you beat a higher-rated team, and go down more when you lose to a lower-rated team)?
A. Yes. Your MMV will go up faster if you defeat a Rated Battleground team with a higher average MMV.

Q. What’s the plan to prevent your Rated Battleground rating from skyrocketing at high win ratios? If your rating only goes down when it is above your MMV, it seems that ratings will just be high on average (compared to Arena).
A. If your Rated Battleground rating gets inflated much beyond your MMV, you’ll only receive a minimal amount of points when you win. Similarly, you’ll lose many more points after a defeat, until your Rated Battleground rating gets back in line with your MMV. This will prevent inflation.

Q. Can consumables and engineering items be used in Rated Battlegrounds?
A.Yes, but they will follow the same rules and restrictions as Arenas.

Q. Will Rated Battleground teams only be matched against other teams in their Battlegroup?
A. No. Rated Battlegrounds will be region-wide, meaning that when you queue for a Rated Battleground, you will have the opportunity to be matched against a team from any of our North American World of Warcraft realms.

Q. Are there any plans to reward players with the highest Rated Battleground rating, similar to Arenas?
A. Epic ground mounts will be rewarded at the end of each season to the top 0.5% of players according to Rated Battleground rating. Titles are also available as you gain rating in the system. The titles are rewarded directly from achievements earned from gaining the required rating.

I have also seen at least one variation of it based on this forum post that resembles Warmane's 3v3 Solo Queue:
https://forum.warmane.com/showthread...92#post3101792

Spoiler: Show

I have seen already some of the things you have said but I cant tell where because I will get banned. But yes, for example with rated battleground you should also get some arena items (maybe not all) it will be useful for ppl who actually dont play arenas much but need some items for example chest. FAP for sure should be disabled this is the most ******ed thing in PVP which has been made. The option to que only alone i think is the best. And ofcourse the old battlegrounds should stay and the rated ones should be separate.
The problmes which will be solved in my opinion are:
1. Drastically will reduce the afkers in battlegrounds. (So maybe for blackrock there should be some requerements before to be able to que rated battlegrounds, because its instant 80lvl will be full with trolls who just make character -> to to rated bg and stay afk. So maybe another thing should be made the afk timer before kick to be just 1 min not like now 1min + 1min).
2. For ppl like me who like intense game and play for the win, not for some kills and farming will be more interesting.
3. For ppl who queing alone i think it will be good because they wont face 100% of the time premades.
4. Players who are queing only with premades will probably start to face another premades more often on the default battlegrounds.
5. There wont be mbxers.
6. I said already about FAP. I think only it should be removed because for rated battlegrounds everyone will want higher rate, and all will start using it. And we know that some classes are usless VS players with FAP buff. About bombs, nitro boots i think should stay, because they require profession so its you decision do u want +2 extra gems from BS or nitroboots. Also its NOT some big game change like FAP.

I actually dont know are there any minuses if there are rated battlegrounds and the old default ones.

WOTLK is last bastion of "sandbox" game to some extent. It's hugely why it's so popular.

Yes. However, because it is the last bastion for "sandbox" MMO, it has attracted toxic players that have nowhere else to go. This is one of those moments that doing something "un-blizzlike" may be the only way to preserve an overall "blizzlike" experience. It is a judgement call, and it is one of the toughest challenges Warmane faces (in the general sense, not about this particular issue) because it brings into question the identity of the server.

[angrylol]

Toxic, yeah, right. How about accurate representation of kinds of people that exist in this world? What exactly is bad about "being toxic"? That's how some people are and you can deal with it in game. People come and play in game all kinds of roles, some wipe floors with "no hEaLinG, thAt's noT FaiR" dudes. Those dudes cry how unfair everything is, but never make anything happen. There are dudes who like to scam suckers, there is a proverb of a sorts "it's immoral to leave sucker with his money", as long as it's within game I think thats fair game[no exploits, no hacks, etc]. There are good people, there are social people. There are traders. In every aspect there are good people and there are scum, as it should be. There are all kinds of people and it makes whole. You remove parts of it, bit by bit and will end up with shallow sterile boring trash, not a game to enjoy. Greatest challenge is other players.

[dccct]

Without digressing too much, I do find these arguments interesting. I can see how due to the "care bear" nature of Blizzard (and I don't use this in an endearing way) and the gaming industry as a whole, private servers will become even more disproportionately populated by toxic players. A lot of toxicity we see can only properly exist as a subculture within what most perceive to be "normal." Even scammers need "normies" to scam. This can have two effects, one is the rise of more extreme forms of toxicity, the other is an implosion of private server population.

[angrylol]

How about removing Spirit Healer in BG's, just put 30sec non-scaling timer on corpse resurrection. Can't get graveyard camped if there is no graveyard.

Spoiler: Show

[Keymouse8800]

How about removing Spirit Healer in BG's, just put 30sec non-scaling timer on corpse resurrection. Can't get graveyard camped if there is no graveyard.

Spoiler: Show

I approve that!

[dccct]

How about removing Spirit Healer in BG's, just put 30sec non-scaling timer on corpse resurrection. Can't get graveyard camped if there is no graveyard.

Spoiler: Show

Interesting idea. Just playing the devil's advocate: Without a graveyard to group up at wouldn't this make it harder for players to work together? This may also introduce a form of corpse camping in battlegrounds.

I would prefer a reduction on the Deserter Debuff in conjunction with a guarantee of not returning to the same battleground(s), or the ability to call for a vote to surrender over this because those options will not result in a change in tactics (provided that winning is the goal).

[Keymouse8800]

Here is an issue with your surrender vote system. What if next battleground you get same/simillar in playstyle group of people (might it be randoms or premades) will you surrender too if you start getting stomped. At some point most games will become surrender surrender surrender surrender, to a point it will dull the general feeling of pvp. Just now i had a battleground that me and my guildie managed to return 11 flags of ours, while our team afked at graveyard and just wrote that we are wasting their time, because we tried. Thats on WSG. (I got 2 achivments - Not in my house, Frenzied defence, in a game that it seemed only few played) I can't say i've seen such a decay in pvp culture since i was introduced to it. Instead of leaving they decided to afk and we still managed to play till the last minute without letting them get the 3rd flag. In that case who should be considered the right side? The tryhards or the random joe who couldn't bother pressing few more buttons in a low gear bracket battleground? Shouldn't you leave something if you see it as a waste of time? Shouldn't you get involved in any activity you queue for? Introducing any of your suggested stuff will only dull even more the overall pvp culture. It will most likely change it so much, it won't be world of warcraft anymore.

[dccct]

Here is an issue with your surrender vote system. What if next battleground you get same/simillar in playstyle group of people (might it be randoms or premades) will you surrender too if you start getting stomped. At some point most games will become surrender surrender surrender surrender, to a point it will dull the general feeling of pvp. Just now i had a battleground that me and my guildie managed to return 11 flags of ours, while our team afked at graveyard and just wrote that we are wasting their time, because we tried. Thats on WSG. (I got 2 achivments - Not in my house, Frenzied defence, in a game that it seemed only few played) I can't say i've seen such a decay in pvp culture since i was introduced to it. Instead of leaving they decided to afk and we still managed to play till the last minute without letting them get the 3rd flag. In that case who should be considered the right side? The tryhards or the random joe who couldn't bother pressing few more buttons in a low gear bracket battleground? Shouldn't you leave something if you see it as a waste of time? Shouldn't you get involved in any activity you queue for? Introducing any of your suggested stuff will only dull even more the overall pvp culture. It will most likely change it so much, it won't be world of warcraft anymore.

A surrender vote can be implemented with safeguards such as requiring a supermajority of 2/3 or maybe even 3/4, internal CD, disabled for first 5 min of battleground, ... etc. Depending on the number of votes required, having just a few friends on your side in a 10 player match (like a WSG) can be all that is needed for the vote to fail. As you have already noticed in that WSG match: Even if you manage to force a group of players to stay in a game, you still can't force them to fight.

Every solution comes with a cost, and at this point I still consider the benefit of time-saving by the majority to be greater than the cost of giving up a small chance for victory (or a handful from getting a few achievements). A surrender vote is not meant to address the imbalance issue that arises from premades getting matched up against random players, though it will alleviate some of the pain. A proper solution will still require a rebalance of teams, with having premades facing mostly/exclusively premades being the easiest one to implement.

[Lonelywolf]

Point is that there are crazy effective players out there. Yes, I get stomped with my 1300 rating and other stuff. Instead of trying to artificially create some "not fair premades" stuff - step up, you have every single resource those mean premades have, same 2 arms, same 2 eyes.

If you want "adventure" where it's all researched how much you will win/lose, how many hours you will be engaged and what you have to do - check out retail or something, they spend a huge amounts of money to make a pecking pidgeon out of you to give you "sense of accomplishment" and all that stuff, so you are special too.

WOTLK is last bastion of "sandbox" game to some extent. It's hugely why it's so popular.

Maybe you can give us 10 things you did to increase your odds before you posted and asked for papa to come save you?

The issue is not what I have done or what I am willing to do, its clear that a premade has an advantage over solo. In addition, a bis geared premade has more advantage on fully starter gear solo group. So there are two things that makes this match-up unfair. Clearly you cant see that, which great because the decision is not in your hand.

[Keymouse8800]

The issue is not what I have done or what I am willing to do, its clear that a premade has an advantage over solo. In addition, a bis geared premade has more advantage on fully starter gear solo group. So there are two things that makes this match-up unfair. Clearly you cant see that, which great because the decision is not in your hand.

First - Issue with gear disadvantage was fixed with the introduction of new gear brackets. Check devlog. (Now if you are saying that blackrockers are at disadvantage from people that invested way more time then you on your characters, hell yeah you are damn right).
Second - Its obvious, no one is saying that premades don't have any advantage over solo players, in fact we pointed out that this was the reason people premade. You guys turn it to sound like all premades are created only for the soul purpose of graveyard farming, no they are made for the purpose of winning.

If you are not willing to put the effort to create a party (because that is what premade is, a pre-made party) of like-minded players why should they change the system to accommodate your selfish solo play style. In fact both issues you pin pointed sound like a YOU problem, not a server issue.

[angrylol]

The issue is not what I have done or what I am willing to do, its clear that a premade has an advantage over solo. In addition, a bis geared premade has more advantage on fully starter gear solo group. So there are two things that makes this match-up unfair. Clearly you cant see that, which great because the decision is not in your hand.

I can see that. Also, I can see that it's BY DESIGN that way. Clueless solo derps who are not willing to do anything are SUPPOSED to be cannon fodder for people who "did things". That's FAIR.
You think back then bliz dudes just randomly made this stuff like this? I bet there was longer and more indepth discussions and plans, by people smarter then any of us here. Yes, yes "but back then everyone didnt run around with BiS!!", we got separated brackets, enjoy.

Here is an idea, let's allow to que BG's only with full group. Every day it's different "call to arms" - as a compromise for removing RBG. No more "unfairness", every single person in BGs are in premade. Why que solo if youll get gy camped anyway, right? All your problems solved, because there won't be any noobs on your team(it's their fault ofc), now you go with people you want to go.

[dccct]

The argument for limiting premades' ability to dominate battlegrounds goes beyond the matter of fairness, it is also about giving the average player a "blizz-like" experience.

When WotLK was live on retail, battlegrounds were playable as a solo-queue player. Now on Warmane, forming a premade is becoming a prerequisite for having any success in battlegrounds. A similar phenomenon occurred when BiS gear was becoming a requirement for battlegrounds, and Warmane corrected it with gear brackets. Correcting the imbalance caused by premades is the logical next step.

[Keymouse8800]

The argument for limiting premades' ability to dominate battlegrounds goes beyond the matter of fairness, it is also about giving the average player a "blizz-like" experience.

When WotLK was live on retail, battlegrounds were playable as a solo-queue player. Now on Warmane, forming a premade is becoming a prerequisite for having any success in battlegrounds. A similar phenomenon occurred when BiS gear was becoming a requirement for battlegrounds, and Warmane corrected it with gear brackets. Correcting the imbalance caused by premades is the logical next step.

You dont want blizzlike experience at all. Just don't make me quote all the ideas you've supported or gave: Surernder buttons, SOLO queues. You are a hypocrite bud.
Not to mention nothing is really a requirement. I had as much joy playing without brackets as with brackets. Like we said, its obvious the issue is a YOU issue. None of my characters are bis, in fact my best character is a 5.8 DK.

Being a victim suits you, sadly i don't know who you are in-game so i can victimise you :D

[dccct]

You dont want blizzlike experience at all. Just don't make me quote all the ideas you've supported or gave: Surernder buttons, SOLO queues. You are a hypocrite bud.

I do want a blizzlike experience. To do so, unblizzlike features will need to be introduced. Time has changed, players have changed, and a blizzlike experience is no longer achievable with the old blizzlike rules and features. This much should be apparent to most. Now the devil is in the detail, and that's where it gets interesting.