What exactly is wrong with rogues on wotlk, I want to play one but all I've been hearing and seeing in raids is that they suck. Is it mostly because people who play them are not doing things right or they are just broken and scaling isn't as it should be?
I searched bug tracker and I couldn't find anything that would make them so bad..
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Member
Rogues on WoTLK
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Member
for most of time I'd go for option no 1. I've seen ****loads of rogues not knowing what they are here for...
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Member
I agree with Lithium, it is 1st one. I've been playing again since reset, and was outdpsed only by few full bis hunters, and 1 bis retri, and 1-2 mages (and hunter aside it was always <500 dps difference) . I'm not even bis yet (6k gs). Most rogues i've raided with sucked tho, couldnt pull 5k+ dps. Even tho rogue seems easy, its harder to max his dmg than most of other classes, and that is why its considered bad, you cant top charts by mindlessly pressing 2 buttons.
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Member
Which spec are you playing?
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Member
Hmm, strange. I thought that's what assasination rogues are for.
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Banned
You misspelled "Arcane Mages". There's a lot of science and numbers behind Assa Rogues. The difference between a good and a bad Assa is the mindset of "oh, I'll just click 2 buttons and get the max DPS this spec allows". Well, no....
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Member
While there is lots of theorycrafting involved (which was done years ago for retail), the actual gameplay of rogue is not as difficult as people would lead you to believe. It is closer to a caster than say a warrior or ret, in that the abilities you use and the timing of such is more important. IE a warrior wants to use BT and WW on cd, but a rogue will not SS or mute or envenom just because it is available for use.
Concerning bugs, the only one that really has any impact (other than cleansing totem) is the DW white hit cap.
The hit and expertise caps are both off on molten (the hit cap is higher than it should be and the expertise cap lower). The dw hit cap is supposed to be 27%, while on molten it is closer to 29%. While this is only based on a couple of months worth of logs, it should also be noted that the glancing blow chance is lower than it should be as well.
Basically on molten every melee requires 32 less expertise rating, but DW classes require nearly 80 More hit rating to do the same amount of melee damage, thus a net loss of nearly 50 stat weight (or ep if you are used to rogue spreadsheets). While not game breaking this hurts rets and UH dks less than warrior rogue and enhancement shaman. (I have not tested feral druids to see how they interact with the combat table so I cannot say how it affects them).
Some other things to note on the hit cap include how reliant rogues are on hits for their other damage sources:
energy gain is reduced for combat thus fewer SS's and resulting poison procs. Assassination ip procs from dp is lower, and while I havent played assassination in a while they are VERY VERY reliant on haste/ap/crit to affect their poison damage, but this all revolves around the idea that there is a 27%, not a 29% base miss chance. The fact is more apparent for assassination because they get so much hit (310 i believe) versus 196 that a combat rogue gets in BIS.
While it is difficult to calculate exactly how much damage is affected, decent BiS rogues should on single target fights like halion normal mode, have equal or higher dps than non-shadowmourn wielding warriors rets and dks in otherwise BiS gear. Shadowmourn gives them an additional 1-2k dps increase which puts them at or above any rogue assuming equal skill and gear.
TLDR: Rogues are mostly fine. Play one if you want and can convince a guild to let you show them what a good rogue can do.
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iSullivanGuest
I have played assassination/combat rogue, ret and warrior before moltdown all BiS without shadowmourne and I can say that rogue never beats the other two with similar gear on molten.
As for bugs, rogues may not be bugged but other dps classes like mages, rets, dks, hunters, priests etc. are known to benefit and gain dps from bugs.
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Member
I wanted to reply to this earlier, but I was busy getting ready for 25hc LK. So rogues do not scale as well in ICC as some other melee do, BUT I was still able to be top MDPS on LoD today. Yes I am a bis combat rogue, and NO they do not have smourn, which is exactly my point. No smourn=rogues dps is fine.
Honestly I am not even that good at rogue, but pulling good dps is about understanding the game, your class, and the encounters.
To the OP: If you want to play a rogue man, do it. Make sure you are willing to put in the time to learn the class and how to maximize your play, and you will be fine.
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Member
What about Assassination's dps? I seem to be doing just fine with 6.1k gs (pulling around 14-15k dps at DBS on 25m, no 2p set bonus yet, not fully gemmed/enchanted and with an Hit surplus), yet everyone keeps telling me that Combat is better coz its "viable unlike Assa". Whats the problem there, I recall on retail Assassination used to be the top dps spec on the single-target? Is there really that much of a difference with Combat dps? I dont have the gear to test Combat (too little ArP and ****ty weapons) hence why Im asking.
And another question, if anyone has the answer: what the hell is up with fast off-hands? They're supposed to be a must for top dps Assassination, yet I seem to do more dps with a slow OH (I tested the dps with Heavens Fall HC MH and both unenchanted furious 1.8 and 1.4 OH daggers, 1.4 granted me only 2 more hits and 1 more IP proc over 3 mins, not enough to make up for the extra Mutilate dmg I got from the 1.8).
I did that same test 3 times, each test consisted on spending 3 minutes on the Heroic boss dummy, only self buffed (glyphed Hunger for Blood and SnD), vanish after the 3rd HfB expired, wait approx 2 mins for internal cds and vanish, swap off-hand, repeat.
The results were always pretty much identical, the 1.8 OH being slightly superior. Now, I heard about haste being bugged on Molten but I couldnt find anything reported on the bugtracker, so duh, whats going on there? Im also using Herkuml War Token which is a considerable haste increase + most of my gear gives haste, thus a 1.4 OH should easily work better than a 1.8, granting more melee hits and IP procs.
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Member
Assassination should outperform combat on DBS Festergut and maybe even rotface. For almost every other fight combat wins because of mechanics, not theoretical target dummy numbers. Marrowgar target switching, LDW target switching, Gunship Target switching, PP target switching, BPC target switching, BQL air phases cause a drop in DP uptime, as well as links/fire potentially causing you to lose stacks. VDW tons of target swapping. Sindy having tons of fast attacks is bad, you get your stacks too quickly and have to stop dps (after you cloak ofc). LK is debatable depending on if its HC or not, but for LOD with the frostmourn phases constant moving for spirits and defile id imagine combat is superior, but am interested in testing it. Halion would be another fight where combat and assassination would be close. IIRC the best use of rogues there is fok spamming as assassination in fire realm assuming 25hc ofc. I do not have much experiance with 25hc RS though so I cant really say. Basically combat produces better numbers in most of the content atm because of the way the content is scripted, not because it is a "better" spec. If you are doing those fights where you stand there and spam buttons without moving for 3-5 minutes assassination should top it. But tbh im fine doing 23k instead of 25k on DBS.
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