@angrylol your build also doesn't factor in the points in reaping, in which you should have 2 in reaping and 0 in unholy blight and morbidity.
I'd like for you to test out both builds in your sim
17-0-54 (3 in reaping)
and
3-15-53 (2 in reaping)
and lmk which comes back with better numbers.
I believe blood sub-spec might actually be stronger than frost however I'm unsure.
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You don't need 11% spell hit you only need 8% melee hit cap, virulence and shadowpriest/druid buff adds you up to about the cap, and in the off chance that icy touch misses in the opening rotation you can cast it again without any problems.
If you miss a pestilence, at about a 0.43% chance of missing pestilence, you cast it again free of cost, unless you waited to the very last second your diseases could fall off then you lose a big chunk of damage in your rotation.
263 hit is more than enough, so 254 + 10 from gems is more than enough to reach hit cap, 1 mixed hit gems is fine.
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I just said t9 is not worth at all if you're aiming for an end game guild and wanna do RS25 heroic. Never said you would use it with arp (which would be ******ed tbh)
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Yeah I never liked the t9 build anyways, but it includes 4 pieces of 258 ilvl tier 9 gear pieces so meh.
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There is no reason to go 2/3 Reaping, that simply doesn't make sense. Only reason you take Reaping is to get guaranteed(3/3) additional Scourge strike.
But that does not work with glyph of Scourge Strike as you refresh with 6th blood rune instead of 4th.
Even Glyph of Scourge Strike only benefit is 1 additional Blood Strike every 1 minute, maybe you can crit it for 10k, so that's 170 dps gain at best(not calculated in sim btw), and downside is icy talons uptime drops from 100% to ~70%.
And I disagree about hit caps, sure, do whatever, but I will go for soft spell cap.
About sims, you missed the point. I would do more DPS in raid with my build despite it showing less DPS in sims. I know it's hard to let go that ray of sun that you are the only person in 10 years who cracked unholy DK. But now go raid some, look at your dps, watch how STR uh surpass you every time and then come back.
Also fun fact, I didnt make your build in sim, I already had it saved from few years ago when I tested it, along with 10 other build variations, including your blood subpec.Edited: December 9, 2019
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Funny that you say glyph of scourge strike drops icy talons uptime, when it doesn't and that proves you don't understand what's going on.
Icy talons refreshes anytime your frost fever does damage as I've tested that in game, so IT is up 100% of the time regardless, also it provides more bloodstrikes and scourge strikes using that glyph.
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Also you claim that you'll do more dps regardless that sims prove my build is superior to yours which I can't understand.
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This has gotten way out of hand and I really did not want to get involved in "re-inventing the meta" threads anymore, but I guess I just can't help myself. A few things to start off with,
1. Do not use Rarw for dk simming in any way, ever. It is EXTREMELY off on its predictions. Probably the absolute worst sim for the class. This is mainly directed at Mercy since I saw she screened some numbers from it. I know you tried to provide relevant info, which is great, but Rarw really isn't the right tool in this case. Kahories and Zerack's (with the latter being incomplete) are the only two viable options for simming when it comes to dks.
2. 4pT9 is almost never worth it for a couple of reasons. Firstly, the 4pT10 is already almost as good of a dps investment (AoE or single target) when compared to 4pT9 for the fights that require AoE (LDW, LK, Halion). Some people like going for 4pT9 to pad numbers on HLK p2, but most of those juicy crits are ending up as damage on val'kyr that have already dropped their players, which is essentially wasted damage. Secondly you lose a lot of stats when swapping the sets. These two combined more than tip the scales in favor of sticking with 4pT10.
2.1 If you wish to improve your AoE potential when it counts (val'kyr, embers, <you name it>) the best option is and always will be dropping your glyph of dark death (which is what you usually have as a third) and using glyph of death and decay. Glyph of Disease would also be a potential dps gain but is not really worth dropping a good signle-target glyph for its rather minor improvement.
3. The setup you've provided may seem really cool and hipster to you and that's fine, but it will not outperform the regular, established BiS. It's relatively close (about 111 dps behind in Kahories) the standart, but still behind. On average it will do less than its counterpart when it comes to single-target. What's more important though, is that it's considerably behind on multi-target.
3.1 This is the case most likely because at complete BiS strength is still better than arp. Only at around 81% arp do they sort of even out and past that arp is strictly superior. The problem is that you're not at 81% passively, so the initial investment on your part will have to come from gemming/food which up until that rough boundary is a dps loss compared to gemming strength. It's true that arp scales well and the benefit of it goes up more and more, but it's definitely not as big of an exponential growth as you make it out to be. In the end it's just not enough.
4. When it comes to hit, with BiS items, you'll be at 7.99% or 263 rating if you prefer. The extra 10/20 hit rating gems would be a complete waste of stats.
5. Expertise is a garbage stat compared to strength, haste, arp and crit. Do not go for it.
6. "Arpen cap is absolutely 100% necessary, being 1400+ arpen is more valuable than 1382 or 1385, a few points over is better than 10-20 points under."
This is usually not the case. 1382 may be an exception as you'd be just over with 2 rating, but at 1385 you're definitely better off not wasting the 5 stat points. Many players seem to have this misconception that the last points of arp are gamebreakingly important. That's really not at all the case. As an example, frost will sit at 1388 arp in its BiS setup. Any extra arp gem is always a dps loss.Edited: December 9, 2019
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Forum Veteran
It does not, whenever you apply frost fever you gain 20% melee haste for 20 seconds. It has nothing to do with its damage or ticks or duration. If you dont have Epidemic talent and your diseases last 15 secs it still has 20sec duration, just read the talent. Well, maybe thre is a bug with Glyh of Scourge Strike and it somehow refreshes duration on icy talons, idk.
Scourge Strike Glyph do not give you more scourge strikes:
In 1 minute frame:
3 usual cycles
3 x Icy Touch
3 x Plague Strike
12 x Blood Strike
9 x Scourge Strike
3 disease glyph cycles:
3 x Pestilence
9 x Blood Strike
12 x Scourge Strike
3 Reaping, disease glyph cycles:
3 x Pestilence
3 x Blood Strike
15 x Scourge Strike
2 glyph of SS, disease glyph cycles:
2 x Pestilence
10 x Blood Strike
12 x Scourge Strike
That's how it is, some are better, some worse, but it is impossible to simulate unpredictable things and humans are not robots.Edited: December 9, 2019
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Field Medic Moderator
The point was to get people to share something more than conjecture and anecdotal evidence. I would've expected that to be clear enough with how I posted, as I wasn't trying to "prove" anything with it, but rather as a tool to pose questions. But I guess it wasn't enough. Even if it were an accurate simulation, simulations are rarely ever a perfect representation of how good something actually is (which is one of the main reasons logs are so popular). Hence my prior questions about the situation OP is representing; which boss fight, does he have to move, etc.
Right, but if one person is only enough to get OP to post insults, then it may in his best interest to get more people involved to explain to him that it's fine to play differently - but the "best" is already established.
The armor pen is something I put into the set myself.
@3 & 5 All of those buffs were provided in the simulation. I explained that in my post.
@4 I don't think 15 points of armor pen are going to make-or-break your damage. But it would be fair to have a proper representation.
@7 Yes, intentionally, so that racials do not influence the outcome. This way the figure can be used for any race of DK.
@8 Of course, because you have trouble reaching the armor pen cap otherwise.
@9 Except that I did. The simulation valued armor pen over hit, so I went with the higher value in an attempt to give your build the benefit of the doubt.
@10 It does, but the list is longer than the screen will allow.
@11 My gear or yours?
@12, 13, 14 Fair point.
RAWR is not the best for this, as Rifokelt had mentioned. It just happened to be a tool that I have on hand. I would encourage you to seek out and find the aforementioned sim programs.
Here's a download for Kahories: https://code.google.com/archive/p/dksimulator/downloads
Thank you. The more detail in the OP, the better.
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@mercy
1).I was not spewing insults out towards anyone. What you took as an insult was simply my belief that angrylol only plays on the icecrown server and doesn't value single target dps as the raid provides enough without a problem and aoe dps is best for icecrown. I made assumptions that I know not are true nor false, so please don't mistaken it for insult.
2). My gear in your simulation was not capped, and I doubt you had the elixirs + foodbuff with my build
3). Hit is ALWAYS top priority over everything else, expertise is essentially hit cap for auto attacks but doesn't hold as much necessity but with this build is still big. ALSO I am not 100% certain if scourge strike glyph extends icy talons but if it doesn't then blood sub-spec with reaping is #1, whereas the rest of the build remains the same.
@Komarac9323 I have 5900 gearscore on my dk ON LORDAERON and 5800 gearscore full pre-bis on my mage ON LORDAERON.
Regardless, I've done all of this in pugs AND I even got kingslayer on video in a pug run ON LORDAERON. I 100% garuntee you if I put some effort in I can easily get 25 heroic on icecrown with little to no problems.
Also even if I were a troll, everything I've stated up until this point is true, the build works and does wonders, and is extremely strong, the only question is if the build is stronger or weaker than the original bis build, and even if it's weaker than the original bis build this build is quite achieveable without having to touch trial of the crusader heroic or normal which is a benefit as many guilds only run ICC and Ruby sanctumEdited: December 10, 2019
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Field Medic Moderator
@1. You can't tell me blatant ad hominem is not insulting. You trying to argue that it isn't or that you didn't intend it that way, etc. does not change that it is, in fact, an insult.
@2. Not your preferences, no, but going over armor pen cap and wasting stats is always a dps loss anyway. The difference between food and a couple gem choices aren't going to change anything.
@3. Not always. Expertise is not "hit cap for auto attacks" either.
So what you're saying is: You don't have the gear with which to test your theory, and the furthest you've progressed is a 10-man normal Lich King (you haven't even seen a shadow trap?) where we have no idea if you were getting carried or not (until you share the video). And you honestly feel this is enough to make the claim that you can do LoD on Icecrown no problems?@Komarac9323 I have 5900 gearscore on my dk ON LORDAERON and 5800 gearscore full pre-bis on my mage ON LORDAERON.
Regardless, I've done all of this in pugs AND I even got kingslayer on video in a pug run ON LORDAERON. I 100% garuntee you if I put some effort in I can easily get 25 heroic on icecrown with little to no problems.
Honestly, I get the feeling that you are a troll at this point. You are welcome to your own preference of a playstyle, but this sort of build has already been covered in one of Gnimo's guides. So I feel this guide is both unnecessary and inappropriate, especially since you are not able to back-up your claims with any sort of logs or experience with the "bis" gear you mention.Also even if I were a troll, everything I've stated up until this point is true, the build works and does wonders, and is extremely strong, the only question is if the build is stronger or weaker than the original bis build, and even if it's weaker than the original bis build this build is quite achieveable without having to touch trial of the crusader heroic or normal which is a benefit as many guilds only run ICC and Ruby sanctum
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So, you're basically admiting that you had no clue about how icy talons works.
On top of that you have a 5.900 dk and you're just beating pugs, is that supposed to be a proof of something? So far it only shows that you're being stubborn and don't wanna get out of the cage you got on your mind.
And you brought the whole ICECROWN VS LORDAERON **** back again, just fyi we gotta split this in two parts: Guilds and individual skill
Guilds: Until 2017 (when progression was still going) LORDAERON>ICECROWN. 2018-now------> ICECROWN>LORD
Individual skill: Nowadays and back then if you would gather up the best players on each class from both servers I have no doubt ICECROWN>LORD.
The whole point of Lordaeron right now that progressive content is not a thing anymore is all about having something a bit more challenging;but then as far as I see Halion and TLK still remain equally scripted on both servers so you can't brag about killing them on Lord tbh. There are PLENTY of guilds on ICECROWN that have gotten 1 or even 2 LK 0% per week without even trying so hard.
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I've done LoD on other servers however I can't share the names of those servers as that's against this servers rules, so open and shut book there.
Also you're discounting everything I say based on opinion. If you don't implement this build down to the core, then you can't disprove that it's good nor bad. The math adds up, the build makes sense, and it's extremely close to the original build with only a very minor set of changes. What's the problem.
And as for you discounting me as a troll, that's unfair. Everyone knows Lordaeron is a thousand times harder than icecrown.
Also as for achievements on Lordaeron
12/12 icc 10
8/12 icc 25 (however I have done 11/12 icc 25hc on other servers and reached phase 3 of lich king normal on other servers, phase 2 of heroic, and only once gotten through phase 3 of LoD, which was a one time occurence)
1/12 icc 10 heroic (This one 11/12 on other servers as well, commonly ending before sindra died, and only a few passed sindy, none passed LK tho)
1/12 icc 25 heroic (again, 11/12 on other servers)
4/4 RS 25
0 RS 25 heroics pugs generally don't want to do RS heroic so I haven't done this one is a VERY long time.
Ruby Sanctum Tactics
I know about double lazers on halion with fire sprites for heroic rs 25, consumption/combustion spreads through both realms, if 60% less dps if 40% more dps
ICC tactics:
Marrowgar tactics:
Ez, kill spikes, don't stand in fire, don't get cleaved, stand under boss, pet at door (to abuse bugmane bugs)
LDW/ Lady tactics:
I know about MC tactics for lady, add immunity, run from spirits, don't stand in death and decay, MD add in back to tank, don't kill darnavan, etc
Gunship:
Ez, jump to side to bug/fix muradin into ranged only attacks, continue attacking him with ranged abilities to stack more threat.
DBS/Saurfang:
I know about Saurfang paladin DI to remove marks + boomy typhoon + dk chains of ice + rdps cross fire + more I'm prolly forgetting
Festergut:
I know about spores for festergut + tank swapping at 9 stacks or so, do a ****ton of dps here, especially if on lordaeron
Rotface:
I know about rotating around the room with the oozes on rotface while the other tank faces him away from the raid, avoid the ooze on the floor, if you have mutated infection run to the big ooze and then get dispelled for the small ooze to combine with the big ooze, watch out for ooze explosions, ez fight
Professor putricide:
Little fuzzy, but generally stack on the target of the green ooze to spread out the damage, kite out the orange ooze and if orange ooze touches target it's a wipe, tank needs to tank putricide in the goo so the abomination can spam attack on putricide (the boss) WHILE also eating goo off the floor so he can get rid of the goo AND build up power to slow oozes, slow dps before phase 2 and phase 3, as oozes spawn usually before both phases, BL in either phase 2 or 3 depending on how your raid set-up prefers it. I prefer phase 3, also tanks need to swap off and on during phase 3
Blood prince council
Normal is easy, spread out when the boss casts shock vortex, have hunters (preferably) or ranged dps keep the orbs in the air and damage them, if they hit the ground it's usually a wipe, if it's heroic there is a debuff that causes shadow dots to build up on you. Healers stay in the middle, ranged dps rotate around the edges from keleseth to taldaram + valanar. 1 Tank will tank keleseth the other tank will tank both valanar and taldaram. MD + Killshot the one with no hp to the tank that is tanking both.
Blood Queen Lanathel
Tactics are a bit iffy but, Top dps at the start will get the bite, so preferably everyone stops dps to make sure the selected player gets the bite, after every minute the bite goes out doing 1-2-4-8-16-wipe for the bite, and the bite makes extreme damage. Theres a fire-walk debuff that you run to the wall and move around the wall to spread floor fire without causing problems. There's a blood link debuff that causes 3 players to be linked and they meet in the middle to remove it, this debuff does massive damage so a quick response is imperative. The tanks share the same exact amount of damage (1 might get all the damage as shadow damage but I'm not sure, so shadow resist might help, don't quote me on that) and that's only IF the tanks are the closest players to each other so if a dps stacks on the tank he might die. The blood queen flies into the sky at certain points, fearing all players and raining down shadowbolts on the raid doing massive damage, this can cause many wipes, however this is where shamans tremor totems, priests fear wards, and undead racial can come in handy (or human if ur alliance scum). Overall blood queen is very difficult in my opinion, but not impossible.
Valithria
Extremely easy on icecrown, very difficult on lordaeron as it's impossible to do if you allow yourself to not continue stacking the buff and/or allow any of your stacks to fall off. The fight is a healer fight and crusader aura makes you fly faster in the green portal spirit realm. You stack up the buff and you heal the boss, stack stack stack heal, heal,heal blood lust + pop all cds at about 25 stacks. Outside tanks + dps kill adds in order suppressors > burning skeletons > blood worms > arch mages > zombies > abominations, however having too many abominations is really bad so multiple numbers of abos will increase the priority to kill 1 of them up the chain.
Sindragosa, 2 ice tombs will be targeted, 2 players seperate on left and right side of the rectangle L of the square part, then you dps those down but leave them alive until after her nuke firebombs drop, or else they instagib you, they're a ***** to avoid as even the slightest los of them will instakill you and you need to hide behind each tomb. Then she has a stacking debuff that causes you to take dot damage as you cast/damage her. Also she has a frost breath so don't let yourself get cleaved. Heroic guilds on lordaeron like to try to 1 tank it as it's easier to them. She has a phase where she goes into the center, drags everyone in and you need to run away from her. This will happen multiple times
Lich king
This is where I MAY not have the best experience at but
Tanks need to tank adds I think, unsure how the tanking system works
Dps needs to kill the valkry as they start to drag people off the edge to their impending deaths
On the innitial platform and the platform will slowly become smaller as lich king destroys it.
Adds and valkry need to be focused with higher priority over lich king.
I could really use a refresher on lich king but my tactics for all bosses beside LK is pretty goodEdited: December 10, 2019
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@morfagor, the point is it's easy to kill lich king with 25 best in slot players with all items besides a lich king weapon, or even with lich king weapons, and the 30% buff.
ALSO
On lordaeron, getting 5900 and a 5800 gearscore character STRICTLY through pugs and nothing else, is very difficult as most icc pugs wipe at saurfang due to his increased difficulty.
I garuntee damn near every player you meet from lordaeron that's above 5700 gearscore has been boosted by their guild in someway or has been running guild runs to achieve this. I've gotten my gear strictly through pugs. Big difference.
