Now that you answered what I didn't ask, answer what I asked, perhaps?
Let's recap: a video was linked, of a famous YouTuber talking about how "pay-2-win" is nothing more than a blanket subjective argument and nothing compared to what it actually used to be (actually paying for things that weren't otherwise in the game and could only be got with money or take literally years of grinding to get) and you replied that "he was talking about retail." Again: what difference does it makes?
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Moderator
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Member
no p2w would be if you could buy the best lvl 20 gear without playing the game
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Banned
He's talking about how p2w means nothing in the context of current mainstream games.
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Moderator
How so? If I don't pay I can only get to level 20, to get past level 20 I must pay. Can't get more pay-2-win than that, anyone who pays and plays for a couple days can beat me!
Because anyone can whine anything is "pay-2-win" if they dislike the business model. There are no parameters, no objective measures, there's just "muh opinion."
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Member
i dont think you know what the word "win" means and so to you p2w is anything you have to pay for
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Member
btw what youre talking about is pay2play not pay2win
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Moderator
Now say that again looking at a mirror.
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Member
That’s the exactly point why people who got no idea, shouldn’t talk at all. Especially the people who joined Lordaeron and didn’t even have a proper experience in it.
1# The persons who are donating are proving the server where YOU are playng, no donators= no realm
2# MoltenWoW/Warmane is at least 4 years old, in this period of time anyone could have been able to farm all the end-gear they wanted, no matter donations or not. Consider also the coins and boosts provided during Moltdown.
You need to learn about understand the basic logic behind “Pay 2 Win”, does it makes u stronger the anyone donating? Nope
Does it allows you to obtain something that others cant? Nope
Why someone who, for example, like me have cleared the whole content tons of time, and decide to play it more casual, cant obtain the item, using my money “farmed” in real life, while you hope for the drop?
More then P2W is just pay2 avoid tryharder people like you that think there is anything related to “how you get gear”, also, if you think that Warcraft goals are gears, I guess u’re playng the wrong game son.
IF Warmane would allow donators to buy 1 tier ABOVE the tier ingame obtanaible ye it would be P2W cause you would get something other players wont in any possible case. While having the same gear “opportunities” it’s just, once again a pay to avoid daily farm, cause PServers are supposed to be casual, Want “balance?” ok, go retail, oh wait there you can buy boosts in any raid/gear with you going AFK or even payng others to use your char.
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Banned
Except, objectively speaking, this is, word for word, pay to win. The better your PVE gear is the better you're gonna do in pvp, both battlegrounds ( completely irrelevant ) and arenas ( what pvp actually is about in wotlk ). You can literally buy your way to higher rating and better results, again nothing wrong with that, but that's not fair when players from one server can do that, players from another server can not, and what we're actually talking about here is implementing cross realm pvp, mixing the 2 together.
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Moderator
Except that there's nothing objective about the full scope of the situation, besides "better gear potentially meaning better results." As Auren points out, you're focusing on how the gear was received, as if that had some sort of "merit" or "more rights to owning it." Who has "more rights," someone who played retail and had the exact same gear before but doesn't wants to farm for it all again or someone with no skill that simply got carried to get high-end gear by friends? How about someone who pays gold for carries, are they "paying-2-win"? What about luck and bad luck, someone gets a drop on their first try and someone else tries for dozens of runs and never gets it, do either have more or less "rights" to it? Is the guy with proper skill and experience and time doing content "paying-2-win" if he simply is sick of relying on RNG? There are no right answers, because it's all subjective, every player will have their own opinion (and many, oh so many, will be prone to changing their opinion conveniently if they can make use of a second option at times).
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Member
I completly understand your point altho I think you need to be realistic.
How long Lordaeron will be able to stay online if it keep drops the population?
How much % of the Warmane needed money income comes from Lordaeron?
You need consider also that the majority of donators (I guess), get the BIS offsets for PvP, to avoid do 5-hours raids, gathering DKP and so on.
Personally I think that balancing the gear just cause Lordaeron is inferior (not as an insult) in terms of progression and gear, when the crossrealm is just to try to revive his dead pvp scene, would just make more cons then proes, for example, why any PvP player should donate anymore if he can do ICC25nm to the best gear?
Also, look on another site, it sounds just: We gonna use the lower gear to balance with Lordaeron, but when there is gonna be passed the line to use HC gear? When a server that is quite inactive and have buffed content, will start do HC on daily basic? Quite distant future don’t u think?.
Also, the game is designed like it is, gear or not in my opinion. I personaly never like the idea of multiple servers crossrealms exactly for this issue.
Another server have this thing, with all gear possible, and seems going well, why here we jut cant make it work? After a while the gear gap will be devided and fixed by the mmr in my opinion. In BGs there are/were and will be always premades.
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Banned
I earned my gear, which is a BIS pvp geared DK with BIS PVE trinkets and offparts. I also recently started playing on Icecrown where I spent coins to buy shadowmourne and BIS pve trinkets. I'm not here to argue and take sides over which group of moaners is better at venting their frustrations out on forums. I'm here to give my honest opinion of how the PVP experience on Icecrown and Lordaeron are nothing alike. You guys (the administration) came up with a brilliant idea that's been long overdue. Help incentivize PVP on Lordaeron and make the experience better for everyone by implementing cross-realm BG's with icecrown. I do not care if the opposing faction has the best gear available because there's an equal chance my team will be just as geared. Good job!
Wanna implement cross realm arenas? Great idea, but take measures because the playing field is not level. Que 2v2 on Lordaeron 1-1500 rating, you're gonna get mostly people with furious gear and crap heroic dungeon weapons. Que up 1-1500 on Icecrown and 9/10 games will be played against people with full wrathful gear with LK 25 heroic 284 weapons and BIS trinkets. If open cross-realm arenas and don't ensure, to the best of your abilities, a level playing field, you're not gonna solve the PVP issues on Lordaeron. What you're gonna do is annoy people and make them stop PVP for the most part, and the ones who will keep playing are essentially going to be free rating for people on Icecrown who que into them.
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Member
I might be just completly lucky, but i’ve geared up from “Furious geared + Vote points” to a quite high rating around 7 chars of difference spec/class and personally I never met this “gear wall” till when reached around 2.3mmr
I guess that people tends to tunnel vision even when talking on forum (I repeat, I don’t wanna insult, jst sharing my opinion) cause they expect to get full furious and then push ratings and easly get S8 (or seems like that) , as any other game you need to be smart when gearing, u’re meeting for 30mins the same BiS that oneshot u? Figure out a new strategy, a new spec, a new comp (with a new partner?) if all this do not work, just do something else meanwhile, there are other things that will be helpful for your arena “future” that are not connected to arena itself.
I remember a guy on forum or ingame that was cryng all over about how he wasn’t able to gear up cause BiS on low rate…..Ends up he was having wrong gear setup (even for starter), close to 0 experience and wrong spec/comp to get anything decent.
I still remember when I was geared and was helping my currently partner in 2s, tons of times he got oneshotted , but we worked on how solve or lower the amount of time happened.
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Banned
I see where you're coming from. Ill tackle this question of yours
" when there is gonna be passed the line to use HC gear? When a server that is quite inactive and have buffed content, will start do HC on daily basic? Quite distant future don’t u think?. "
If the entire gear is scaled down, for example Heroic trinkets to be made normal, and so on, people on icecrown won't really feel a difference. More likely than not, if you have heroic trinkets and offparts, you're going to que into someone who has heroic trinkets and offparts too. If those said items are scaled down from heroic stats to normal stats, the difference is basically non-existant and the pvp experience is not affected in any way for the icecrown player.
Unless they make Lordaeron completely blizzlike, remove buffs and add the 30% icc buff and RS, it's never going to be fair if they do not cap gear ilvl. The current situation on Lordaeron is that there's no guild currently capable of clearing ICC 25 heroic. The ones that were have left. There's been almost 1 year since the release of ICC and the guilds who were there at the start and are still here are just as close to killing LK 25 heroic as they were back then. In short it's never gonna happen unless content is brought to icecrown levels of difficulty.
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Moderator
And I'm simply counter-arguing the stale, stinking, filthy, lazy "pay-2-win" pseudo-argument/dead-horse. It's become nothing more than the gaming version of "I'm offended."
You want to talk about gear discrepancies - which are completely natural on a server that has been open for years, donation gear or not - that's fine. I can recognize that as a valid concern and not get into whether it's being discussed on a level-headed manner or blown out of proportion by some. Just leave out the lazy "it's pay-2-win!!1!" that bundles thousands of players, most of which never donated and a huge chunk (out of those who did donate) that only did to skip queues and who have worked over months to get their gear, into some single easily-targeted mass.
