A lot of right words.
True, the DPS method with Flametongue autoattacks is so incredible important being ele shaman. There is a lot of conditions there: many times it's better to stay far away to keep the highest DPS. BTW, I'm going to publish this DPS concept in my last Guide's paragraphs. In my notepad it's calling: "The Hybrid DPS Mode of Elemental Shamans".
About CL-ing single targets, I can't say something positive. Read my post CL vs LB. I think, at low GS (under 5.8k) it makes sense, because lets us to cast addition Lava Burst or LB per casted Flame Shock. At BiS GS levels the LB scales much more vs single targets.
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Edited: November 3, 2015 Reason: BB-coding
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Rexi, just my point was that sometimes stats are nothing in this game if you know how to build them ofc. Always been said if you have bis trinkets (or normal at least) bis weapon (or normal at least) set and some decent offset you always can do great dps if you know how to play whatever class. You know perfect that you cant make parallel between 2 raids with dps sometimes you can do 25k burst sometimes 20k sometimes even less. If i take critical strike for example its totaly RNG depends. For example if you have 50% crit i have 40% that dont means you will criticaly hit for this boss more than me all is on luck and RNG. Same with SP. you know perfect that SP has coefficient so if you have 4000 SP i have 3900 SP that dont means again that you will have higher amount of crit with Lava Burst than me. If game give me good RNG with critical and good coeficient of SP almost every time then i will do better dps than you even if you have better stats than me - so all is depends. For that for me better way is balanced stats so you have better chance at least the game do not "plays" against you :D To understand me better ill give you example again - with my old bis mage i had 75% critical fully buffed ( i mean with combustion with warlock debuff on boss with ele shaman or boomy aura with molten armor with scrolls foods just with all) and i had very bad luck from 10 spells do not crit 1 time atleast. With 75% it seems almost imposable but as you see RNG is best "virtual stats" in this game. For that sometimes you can see that any dps from same class with 200 GS less than you can do same or better dps from you not because you cant play because the game "plays" with you. Again example:
You have 2 ele shamans "A" and "B" with same gear.
Shaman "A" gems and enchants all posable with only SP and he has 2k SP, 50% crit and 1k haste.
Shaman 'B" try to make different balanced through gems and enchants and he has 1900 SP, 52% crit and 1100 haste.
"A" and "B" start to make dps on same boss. "A" have balanced luck with coeficient of SP, "B" has same balanced luck of coeficinet with SP (he has 100 SP less) but he has 2% better chance to crit and 100 haste more what means on every ~13 LBs from "A" he will do 14. Mathematicaly "B" has better chance to beat "A" because he has 2/3 better stats than "A" but as i said all is depends RNG. So never prefer SP or AP more than other secondary stats because its faill for amost every dps class. Always you need to make balanced between all important secondary stats for you. Only stats in this game where has soft cap is haste rating. Ppl from Blizzard called this "soft" cap because this is minimum amount of haste what you need to have to reduce GCD to 1 secs but that dont means that you need to stop with this amount. Theoreticaly more haste is damage increases for all dps classes, shaman dont make except from this. Yes ofc on the start when you use BL or elemental mastery this haste doesnt matter because you will have 0.8s cast what is less 1s (GCD) but after these bonus haste buffs finished then you will open real potential of this amount of haste then you will see different. Personal for me im 1200-1250 haste raiting like my "cap"Edited: November 4, 2015
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I saw your test but tests on dummy never will be real. You cant make parallel between test on dummy only self buffed and test in raid with all posable buff because they are not real. Just try only one time on DB 25hc for example to use CL on cd when you are closed to boss and then you will see the different. even if you see your recount after this you will see that there hasnt almost different between LB and CL normal damage and crit damage max 1 to 2k but CL have better cast time what theoreticaly decreasee your cd of Elemental mastery on the time. Sometimes the logically is not true. Dont understand me wrong. Im not here to learn you you are really very good ele shaman i hope we make a intelligent discussion where everyone can says his expirience about ele shaman. You have really very very detailed and nice guide for ele shaman and im sure with almost all. HF :P
Edited: November 5, 2015
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Sometimes maybe yes (during Bloodlust/Heroism or other DPS boosting buff), but in 90% of cases - no. Look, elemental shamans haven't any benificial OP bugs like some other classes.
History:
- Long time ago (over 2 years) there was Ret paladins, Unholy DK, MM hubters, Fire mages with those OP bugs which scaled much more with stacking buffs and auras. They did like 25-33k DPS on DBS and so on.
- I remember the August of 2013 when the BM hunters found a OP bug in Zulian Tigers abilities. They was able to do 10-11k dmg vs characters with 1100 Resilience in arenas. Just image that pet's damage with ICC buff!.
- Like a year ago Demo locks got a new breath and scaling fire spell damage based on high spell power, granting them ability to boost up their dps by 5-8k vs targets under 45% HP. Fire mages, Ret Paladins and MM hunters still doing RNG OP bugged dps. FMages crits with Frostfire bolts between 33k and 55k damage, Ret Paladins dps scaled from double dipping during Bloodlust/Heroism and Seal of Command AoE, MM Hunters did RNG dmg with Chimera Shots (30-60k dmg) and OP bugged Piercing Armor bleed DoT. After last fixes the DKs lost their unholy DPS.
- Today FMages got some fixes and new NERF bug - bugged T10 bonus, - as a result they lost Top 1 rank DPS. Ret paladins got fixed on AoE and Wings double dipping. MM hunters still doing some RNG dps. But we have NEW RNG GAMERS - FURY WARRIORS and FERAL DRUIDS :D. OMG! Fury warriors crits with Whirlwind crits for 28-35k dmg, sometimes noticed - 40-45k! Also, Ferals - awesome, 30-35k dmg with Shred which crits for 80-82%!!! The locks and Shadow Priests still doing top DPS, because thir DoT scalling just to much for both PVP and PVE. Nowadays, even DK have problems during PVP agains those DoTers.
So, talking about Elemental Shamans the RNG playstyle DPS is not our destination, because our class is well fixed now, without any of described damaging spells.
Blizzard's concept is: only Rogues, Locks, Mages and Hunters should do Top dps in raids, becasue they can't get the spot as healers or tanks. All others classes must doing less dps as designed.
Well, true, I can't make parallel between test on dummy only self buffed and test in raid with all posable buffs, BUT the PROPORTION is still working! Anyway, I just noticed that CL normal damage, crit damage in many raids. The CL is good to perform some fast AoE bursts and to synchronise your Lava Burst and LB with FS DoT sometimes. When CL will proc Overload you'll do the same DPS as LB - so no DPS lost; but Overload has 33% chance to proc. So, IN 100%-33% = 67% CASES you will lost your DPS, becasue LB doing more dps even with raid/ICC buffs.Edited: November 8, 2015 Reason: BB-coding
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Most casters are supposed to have a built-in mechanic in place that resets their melee swing timer whenever they cast a spell. The point of this was to remove the need to have to get into melee range to achieve maximum possible DPS as a caster. It's possible Blizzard made Shamans an exception to this mechanic, because obviously having your Lightning Bolt, Chain Lightning, and Shocks reset your melee swing timer would be disastrous for enhancement shamans, but it'd still be worth checking whether there were records of retail Ele's doing this too.
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Ye Rexi for real you are right for some reason me too. Just all game is based on mathematical logic but as i said sometimes the illogical is true - the logical fails. If i have time i'll try to explain in next post by me.
Edited: November 8, 2015
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You are right if we use your logic - but not exactly because you forget something very important. Let's start from there what exactly is DPS. DPS is damage per second. That means the game calculates every second your total damage done for 1 sec, the game does same for next 1 sec, and next and next, ... till end, and on base these intermediate calculations the game does your middle DPS what you see on your recount (if you see you recount in battle it refreshes recount's values every 1 sec). So to do good dps you need to do more damage done as posabble for 1 sec for example. If i back on your comment for CL and LB and Overload you forget something very very important. When Overload procs for CL it does immediately double CL while LB will cast your primary then it will cast secondary with animation and this will lose half second to hits the target. Even when you are closed to boss second (from overload) LB has a delay and lack, but CL just hits double at once. Therefore even LB to does a bit more damage done than CL, CL is more faster and with CL you will do more damage done for short period of time.
Example: Imagine you are in icc and you cast CL on single target and your overload procs and you hit 35k (20k from primary and 15k from overload). it will cost your recount 0s time to calculate this 35k damage.
Now imagine you are in icc in same situation but you were casted LB instead of CL and your overload procs and you hit 42k (24k from primary and 18k from overload). It will cost you and your recount to calculate this 42k damage around 0.5s time. How much more range you keep from your target this time between primary and secondary will be more.
So fast analysis: 35k for 0s always > 42k for 0.5s for this cycle of time DPS.
Even for this example i gave 4k damage done difference between CL and LB but it is less with same amount of spell power. Around 1-1,5k normal and 2-3k crit in ICC for example.
For some bosses where you will keep more distance between you and your target combination from Lava Burst + CL does maximum damage what ele shaman can does because with range about 25-30 yards when you use LvB+CL you will see how LvB hits the target in same time with CL and the game calculates it like 1 shot. If you have luck and you take overload of CL + double critical of this you can do 60k+ damage done from this combo. Go on dummy now and use this combination always when you use it you will see on your recount elevated of DPS just always - it can be even with 1 point at least but it will. Personal i call this "DPS saving" because immediately after this your dps will decrease again what is normaly when you are not in the time of your burst but on next cycle when LvB refreshes you will use it again. My advice is try to use CL immediately after LvB if you keep enough range from your target for this. Ele shaman really has a lot of thinnesses for dps improving. Ofc when i said CL is dps increasing i didn't talk for numbers in order 4,5k dps - just for around 1k - 1k+ to max 2k in ICC for example what is more from satisfactorily.
I don't know for real if you understand me. Few ppl can understand me because first they need to explain this all in their heads then to ask questions, but in all cases this is a part from my explanation why CL really is dps increases with my own words. Other little part is that CL potent decreases cd of Elemental mastery because set bonus and CL does "invisible" to stack additional "haste raiting" - Just "faster is always faster" :D For example if you were played cataclysm before, mastery raiting increases chance for proc of overload. Even that CL does less damage than LB in cataclysm is just important to use CL more instead of LB (CL hasn't cd like in wotlk) because 3 reasons. 1st because CL has around 0.3-0.4s faster cast time than LB you have more chance to keep longer time 2nd bonus set of T13 on 2,3 stacks because it gains you additional haste raiting, 2nd because this faster cast of CL, your elemental mastery will refresh faster what gains you additional 2000 mastery raiting because 1st bonus set of T13 and 3rd exactly because CL hasn't this slack animations for Overload proc. Just all is about how you will hit the target. with 4 spells x 5k or 5 spells x4k for same amount of time its 20k for this amount of time for example. Faster damage on the target always is better than higher damage done spells with lower cast (when they haven't so much difference in their damage dons because damage done of the spell is opposite proportional on the time where you need to cast them - how much cast time is lower stronger amount of damage does the spell and opposite) if you know how to calculate them with your rotation. For last elemental shaman really has one of the easiest rotations in wotlk but as you see sometimes easier is hardest.
Now i want to say something about ele shaman. From all caster's classes the lag and spike in the game gives bigest influence over ele shaman. You will ask why. Because ele shaman as all has fastest cast time from all other classes. We talk for spells between 0.8 to 1.3s (depends from buffs) with GCD from 1s. If we add the fact that we are not robots and machines and for real we can't use on every cast this GCD (for example if your current cast is 1s = GCD your next cast won't be started in 1s but may be in 1.05s or 1.1s because you can't push the button exactly on this 1s) we will have 0.2-0.3s where the delay just will eat it and it will decreases all dps. With this i want to say that how much faster you cast you progressive will lost dps if you have delay. Because 0.5 to 1s delay you can lose even 4,5k dps for nothing. It is good if you decide ele shaman to be your main class and for real you to be good with it just to be sure your internet is "iron" and it's not a joke.
You said : "The CL is good to perform some fast AoE bursts and to synchronise your Lava Burst and LB with FS DoT sometimes."
Or this is total wrong in my opinion or just i can't understand what you mean. We talk here for some minimal part of the second like 0.1s or 0.2s where you never can calculate or synchronise in the encounter just because first you are not robot second it more depends from your haste raiting (what you never can sychronise too because no one can tell you what is ideal haste raiting for you even 5 haste raiting can broke this your synchronisation) and 3rd every moving from you will refute your theory - you don't know how much time you will need to move 1s or 2s or 1.9s or 4.3s or ... and when, just you will need to start all again. I won't say too that if you need to do simple moving like 1 jump more shamans will cast Flame Shock just do not lose some additional damage done what relatively more refute your theory for sychronisation on flame shock with other spells. It can help you really sometimes if boss is in style "i will stay only like dummy and dps like beast" and allow you to do really "perfect" rotation - only boss where i see this to happens is DB. You feel my point? But as i like to say and do every time my moto is: "Better save some nab from your raid if you can and lose 3 even 4k dps instead he to die and your total raid dps to be decreased" :D To be good player means to help your raid not to be first on recount. It's sadly because few people know this... HF mate :)Edited: November 8, 2015
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Previously I was confirmed that Elemental shamans and Enhancement shamans are completely different specializations, - but they are not. The Enh shaman doesn't exists at all and, looking under this angle, Ele shamans doesn't exists as a prototype character concept. I want to say: "We have the Restoration and Fighter shamans only".
Fighter shamans have some kind of hybrid dps specialisation, which doing spell damage mainly with some enchanted melee filler damage. Some of them have improved casting spell damage, designed for PVE mainly, - Ele shamans; Other have improved instant melee enchanted damage, designed for dueling and arena, - Enh shamans (for sure, a BiS Enh shaman doing like 30-35% melee damage in any PVE raids, other 70% damage is spell damage).
Sadly, the Enh shamans have serious nerfed bugs currently, so they are not so good even for PVP.
About retail examples - they are not. In Wotlk expansion Ele shamans was not studied so good. Maybe a few players noticed the right way how to play this 'Spec'. Anyway, I didn't found any examples about hybrid DPS mode over the Web guides.
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If enh would do 70% spell damage then sp would outperform ap. Charred Twilight Scale and Dislodged Foreign Object would be best in slot trinkets because they grant haste and sp.
The calculation with EnhSim shows that a BiS geared enh shami does the following dmg on single target:
59% melee dmg:
white attack 37,82%
windfury 12,97%
stormstrike 4,73%
lava lash 3,26%
35% spell dmg:
flametongue 8,04%
magma totem 3,64%
earth shock 2,78%
flame shock 4,17%
lightning bolt 10,83%
fire nova 2,39%
lightning shield 2,74%
6% pet dmg:
spirit wolves 2,93%
fire ele 3,71%
Now on Warmane the number might vary a bit because of bugs but spell dmg is still a lower percentage than physcial dmg.Edited: November 21, 2015
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I don't remember exact digits because I had an under BiS Enh on old Lordaeron. But your digits are similar as I had on my Recount.
I mean pure melee white damage vary between 30 and 35%.
As you can see the FS or ES spell damage is the same as Stormstrike and/or Lava Lash melee ability damage. Anyway, Lava Lash is a weak ability with low rotation priority (only beginning from CATA ex this ability ruls). Flametongue doing a way better damage. The LB spell damage is under and close to Windfury ability damage, but CL will do the same or better spell damage on specific encounters. And these are digits for a BiS set while a shaman stack AGILITY and ATTACK POWER with decent HASTE also (faster melee swings)!Edited: November 21, 2015 Reason: BB-coding
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Ah ok.
But as far i know no other class does as much melee white dmg as Enhance.
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You totally forgot about the GCD. It's 35k < 42k per GCD, always - except the moment where the boss dies while your LB is traveling...
DPS is always damage done divided by time in combat. So even if your damage spikes might be higher with your example - don't know if recount is calculating this way, tbh - your final dps will always be lower.
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Well, you wrote a lot of text with a lot questions and on some questions you already done responses. I'm familiar what is dps and about this I wrote an etire paragraph (P2.5. DPS Trainer), where I calculated theoretically the damage of each elemental shaman spell and had introduced an example how those theoretical digits to project on practical values. Check that paragraph if you didn't. Talking about LB or CL rotation I didn't forgot about the LB and CL mechanics.
LB has flying time, but CL has instant hit. This is why I alway noticed that CL is good to perform some fast burst against low HP targets. Because due to CL mechanics we can do more output damage during short time (first 3-4 sec) compared to LB. It's very important vs targets which each second presence in the encounters can turn to raid wipe (for example, Blazing Skeletons at VDW). Such bursting rotation I already wrote in paragraph 2.1 Macros. The CL rotation burst is very effective during PVP also due to previously explained criteria. Moreove, fly time of LB can be encountered by Iceblock, Deterrence, Spell Reflection, Antimagic Shield and e.t.c. Finally, CL always should be caste after Lava for best output fast burst with minimal ooming, because after Lava will 100% crit we will recieve Clearcasting and 50% less mana cost on expensive CL mana cost.
You explaining DPS mechanics under theorycraft criteria as damage per second. Few posts below Bensten typed a right post about how Recount and Skada works - they fix the Entering Combat time and calculating all damage done during the combat time. The DPS is Damage Done divided on Combat Time (casting time). So, DPS after 20 sec is all damage done during this time divided on 20. Some practical kind of normalization. I performed many tests and can confirm that Recount and Skada aren't good tools to calculate burst DPS. Their digits are right after 10 sec of casting time, after some normalization.
Talking about Boss encounters the sustained DPS is better option than burst DPS. The LB doing better sustained DPS vs single Boss target as is shown below.
Also, you forgot about one basic and very important concept which determines the DPS of each class - the GCD. It's the main barrier for any DPS rotation which makes this game playable at the same time. Below is a graph example about LB DPS and how GCD limits it's value (posted in paragrah 2.5).
Mate, I don't know where you got got those digits: CL hits for 24k and 18k for it's Overload. The 24k is a medium LAVA crit in ICC. Anyway, to explain this time line collisions I prepared two graphs based on SELF BUFF DAMAGE vs Heroic Training Dummies. One graph is based on spell rotation with CL, the other one - with full LB.
CL Rotation - a kind of PROACTIVE DPS
With green vertical lines are marked the GCD barrires during first 6 seconds. DPS1, DPS2, ... DPS5 are theorycraft DPS values during each second respectively. As wee can see, due to CL mechanics, between GCD1 and GCD2 we can push very high damage. The CL and it's Overload damage is done during the "second" second. Even during third second our damage can be high if next LB and FS DoT will crit. The output damage can be a way higher if CL will hit 3 targets, but we are talking about single target DPS. After 6 seconds the NORMALIZED DPS is 13.3k (as total damage of all spells divided on 6 sec). It's a case when LB crits are not so high as usually.
LB Rotation - a kind of BEHIND TIME DPS
Let's take a situation while our FS DoT, Lava and LB, during GCD2, GCD3, GCD4 GCD5, doing the same damage just to project and compare CL and LB more exactly. As previous CL has Overloading our first LB also has Overloading. So, due to it's fly time the LB Overload will land during third GCD. As a result the DPS2 will be a bit lower, but the DPS3 will be a way higher. After 6 seconds the normalized DPS will be around 14k. It's not even equal DPS, it's higher DPS. Talking about Boss encounters we are not interested when the highest damage will be done - during first second or during third second. We usually are interested what damage will be done after 10 minutes!
Well, I'm not going to explain this in detail, because the abilty to synchronise your spell mostly depends by latency, lags, skills. For a person which plays elemental shaman as an ALT one hour per week or per two weeks the explanation will not help. This is a way how simple ele shaman's rotations become very hard. I can say only one thing.. During BL/Heroism, Elemental Mastery, Engineering Gloves, Potion of Gaste your casting time of spells will vary between 0.3 - 0.5 second. So, I personally have some sense based on my current haste (casting time) and distance from the Boss the next Lava will crit or not, if I'll "clip" FS DoT or not. Clipping FS DoT are bad for dps; you should synchronise your LB in the some way to cast new FS between 0.3-0.8 second after last DoT ticked. Clipping FS DoT you'll cut it's initial damage. If caste too late you miss one DoT source of DPS during 2-3 seconds. While you casting LB the target will be without FS DoT.
For example, let's say the FS DoT timer on BOSS is on 2 sec (it means that in 2 sec the FS DOT will perform it's last tick).
Based on my current haste rating and distance to Boss I know that I'll cast Lava in 1 sec and Lava will land in 0.7 sec - so it will crit. In other case I know that I'll cast Lava in 1.1 sec and Lava will land in 1 sec - so it has a 50%/50% chance to crit due to my 52% crit rating. It's good idea to wait Lava and fake it's priority and to cast next LB during 1,3 sec. The LB fly time is also 1.1sec. So, we have 0.7 sec to cast something different but not Lava (chance to do normal damage), not LB (because we will lost FS DoT on target for too long time), not FS (cause we will clip previous one). Sure CL is the option due to it's fast casting time 1-1.1 sec and chance to Overload and to Reduce Elemental Mastery CD and Frost Shock or Earth Shock are bad options (DEDICATED TO PLAYERS WHICH PREFER TO WASTE TALENTS POINTS FOR BOOMING ECHOES and /or SHAMANISTIC FOCUS). After CL will insta land we will cast insta FS just in 0.1-0.4 sec after last FS DoT will tick, based on latency, filled by Lava so the FS DoT will be set to 18 sec.Edited: November 29, 2015 Reason: BB-coding
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Rexi, i'm not stupid man. I don't need to check in google for some graphics, formuls or whatever you want to see that CL increase dps aswell. I did try long time elemental without CL and with CL and i can see for myself what is correct. Just i wanna explain you with my own words and not to find in google for some better opposite explanation. Think that it is no chance Blizzard added CL like spell. Do you think this such powerful spell is usable mainly for AOE? Really? I will repeat again that this dps graphics on base some virtual programms for calculating DPS meter are not 100% currect. Even a lot of dpsers in top guilds on retail did stop to use them or actually they use it only for some close numbers what are not correct with the reality. Such programms used 100% clear middle (with 0 ping, with 0 delay from your "fingers", with 0 delay from GCD). I told you before ill repeat agian. Just try one time then come post for real your meaning before to post some graphics. About your post up for meele swing reseted for caster. It's not rull for ele shaman. You are right - it's because enha spec. Ppl from Blizzard had not a way to fix it. To understand me correct just read Flametongue weapon imbue spell. This imbue is for both specs. This spell not only increases SP but it gains addititonal fire damage what procs from meele swing. Just if you wonder if it's warmane bug, don't worry - it's not. Just there hasn't spell where can work on half for 1 spec and whole for 2nd spec (only in situation where on the spell don't write that this effect is only for enha spec for example).
Edited: November 29, 2015
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In that post about CL and LB usage I wrote more than should. Those graps explains perfectly the genesys of any spell/ability DPS (in this case for LB and ele shamans rotation).
Firstly. First graph I made like an year ago just for DPS Trainer paragraph. Other two I made during last two days. It's not Google resource. It was not built by some Elitistjerks programms, cause they are outdated for path 3.3.5.a and a lot wrong compared to Warmane scripts. I used the Mac software called Grapher to display graphs based on their functions. The Data on those graps I got from real damage values vs Heroic Training Dummy under BiS character. On second and third graps are shown perfectly that difference between CL Overload and LB Overload - the spell will land during this GCD or during next GCD, considering CL doing less output damage. Bensten is right in his post.
CL Rotation - a kind of PROACTIVE DPS
LB Rotation - a kind of BEHIND TIME DPS
Secondly. I don't think the CL is so powerful spell vs 1 TARGET, exception if you using this for PVP. But this spell is usefull to perform some fast bursts and to synchronise your spell rotation. And yes, it's usage mainly for AoE, because this scales very well with SPCoefficients.
Thirdly. Graps values are not 100% absolute, because the crit and normal damage vary from time to time. I just got some damage values during some tests.
Fourthly. You just missunderstood something. That's not my post, that's MANIACOFPEACE'S post where he offering the idea that swing timer should be reseted after spell cast for casters. My response was - the elemental shamans aren't pure casters and their swing timer should not reset. And true, Flametongue does fire damge not per swing, but per melee hit!!!! If you will miss - no Flametongue.Edited: November 29, 2015
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