WotLK Arcane vs Fire PvE

[Griste]

There are good pieces of information throughout the mage forums in regards to specs, but one thing I haven't seemed to find anything about is what general crit percentage you would need in order for FFB or TTW specs to be viable. I'm currently playing arcane due to having a lower GS (5.6k), but I have 31% crit with molten armor. Would it be reasonable to think that somewhere in the ballpark range of 35% crit, I'd be able to spec back into FFB? I'm not exactly looking to break dps meters, so long as my dps remains similar and competitive, I'm happy. Arcane couldn't possibly be any more boring, not that FFB appears to be much more involving.

[Sky]

Hey!
So in general, a good time to go fire is when you can hit 50% (47% will do in my opinion, as long as you're using a spec with focus magic) crit on your own, with arcane intellect & molten armor on. Also, just to have a general haste idea, around 650 is enough.

Regarding the FFB/TTW specs:
While similar in nature (both being fire specs), they differ a bit in playstyle.
Due to Frostfire Bolt having a higher critical damage modifier (an extra 100% from http://wotlk.openwow.com/spell=15047), that spec focuses more on critting as much as you can. Therefore, while you can switch to FFB relatively early, it will require a lot more crit to perform well.

TTW fire on the other hand, is more about landing the most amount of fireballs on your target (crit damage modifier is lower on fireball, but it has a lower cast time than FFB). So this spec is much better when you're near 50% self buffed crit, but it also outperforms FFB at every stage later on. The lower cast time on fireball, coupled with the 12% damage increase (http://wotlk.openwow.com/spell=55340) for example are two very significant factors.

Also don't feel discouraged early on, as it may turn out that arcane bursts higher and seemingly so outperform your fire spec. Arcane is very strong if you can afford to root yourself and just dps with no care in the world. But when it comes to movement, arcane suffers a lot, as it doesn't have many options to keep damaging the target. Fire specs however are much more well-rounded, having both DoTs and instant-cast spells (Pyroblast on Hotstreak, http://wotlk.openwow.com/spell=11113if you spec into it, Fire Blast, etc.)

Hope this helps giving you a general idea. Just keep in mind that fire specs are RNG-based (read:crit based), so you need a certain amount of crit to be consistent.

Edit: Added links to important mage discussion topics you might find helpful, for faster navigation.
•http://forum.warmane.com/showthread.php?t=210328 For a holistic approach on specs, stat-weights, gemming, BiS lists, rotations and many more.

•http://forum.warmane.com/showthread.php?t=346065 Interesting discussion on the most damage-effective way of dealing AoE damage as fire mage.

•http://forum.warmane.com/showthread.php?t=344465 Another discussion about the 'Top PvE spec'. About halfway down the thread there's a nice discussion regarding crit vs. spellpower stacking on fire mages. This subject is also briefly addressed by Faelarin in his guide (first link), under the subtopic of gemming.

•http://forum.warmane.com/showthread.php?t=54718 Ultimate mage theorycrafting, as the title says.
There's a lot of numbers (coefficients, stat values translated into ratings, etc.) here, if you decide to look into the technical aspect of the specs and decide based on that. Just and excerpt:

Being specced into a Frostfire Bolt build allows you to attain 330.75% Critical damage, by stacking + Burnout + & a . As Frost you cap at 209% Critical damage, as Fire the cap is 254.45%, and for Arcane it's 181.75%.

[Selaya]

No.

Arcane is a burst spec, best suited for short, decisive encounters.
Fire is a sustain spec, best suited for long, drawn-out encounters.

[TinyToys]

I agree with Hidden, 47% crit is a good time to switch TTW, try to have the 2T10 bonus in additon. (you have to be in fire spec to know you crit amount because you have a lot of (crit) given by the template, and when you check your crit count the crit "fire".

Selaya, have right too, Arcane : short and motionless fights (even if when it come like 2-3 alternative targets (like LK 25h open) TTW directly outperformed it even on short fights. TTW : fight > 2.30minutes approximatly and with or without movements.

To my mind play FFB is absolutly useless, the only good point compare to TTW is the little slow given by the FFB dot, usefull only against the valkyr on lk. But meanwhile the TTW can gain like 500 000/1 000 000 direct damages on LK during the transition, so even where FFB present an advantage (LK fight) TTW clearly outperformed it.

For me 4 spec are usefull in PVE HL :
- 'TTW SP stacked' Most of time (nearly all icc)
- 'Arcane' (can outperform TTW on DBS and VDW)
- 'Arcane with Incanter's Absorption' (can outperform TTW on Sindragosa)
- 'TTW Crit oriented' (can outperfom 'TTW SP stacked' on Halion fight)

'TTW SP stacked' : Most efficient Template : 18/53/0 ; GEAR: Traditionnal TTW BIS List ; Gems : 23SP on each places except +9SP bonus (there respect colors and put 23SP on red; 12SP 10 Crit on yellow; 12SP 10Spirit on blue) and somtimes on +7SP bonus (there look at the colors if it's a yellow + blue do not care about fullfill by 23SP; if it's red+somthing(bleu or yellow) than put a 23SP on red and respect the color of the other place (12SP 10crit on yellow or 12SP 10 spirit on blue).
For Horde raiders, find 1 +5SP Bonus with yellow case and remplace the 23SP by a voiled ametrine (12SP 10hit) assuming you use the enchantment Ice Walker, if you don't use it (Engineers) find another +5SP Bonus with yellow case and remplace the 23SP by a voiled ametrine (12SP 10hit), there you will be (BIS gear) 1 point under the hit cap yet i let you choise between have 13,99% hit or put and additionnal Voiled ametrine and gain 9 useless hit points.

'TTW Crit oriented' : Most efficient Template : 20/51/0 (assuming the fact you use it only on halion personnally I don't change my spec for it, the important part is the gear) ; GEAR: Traditionnal TTW BIS list but with these changes : take the spirit crit Belt, the spirit crit Ring (instead of the rapid ascent ring) and the spirit crit wand, ideally fullfill these 3 items by maximum of crit you can. let the other pieces gems like said above.

'Arcane' : Most efficient Template : 57/3/11 (do not remove the point from arcane barrage this is your only way to moove a bit without completly stopping dps), (it assume a Hpal who put and increased Concentration Aura) ; GEAR : Traditionnal Arcane BIS list ; Gems : PS stacked as TTWFire but remplce the 12SP 10crit by 12SP 10haste.

'Arcane with Incanter's Absorption' : Most efficient Template : 57/3/11 ; GEAR & Gems : Exactly like traditionnal Arcane build.

I Hope it will finnally help all ppl who come here and said "which spec is better, what am I suppose to play, etc" (like every 2 months we have one)



Tiny.

[Audioholic]

Hurrdurr Arcane sucks balls on long drawn out fights with movement durrhurr

Spoiler: Show

[Nemmish]

do not remove the point from arcane barrage this is your only way to moove a bit without completly stopping dps

And what about Fire Blast?

Arcane barrage does kinda low damage and imo just to keep it on a "just in case you have to move" purpouse is a waste of talent points.

[TinyToys]

@Audioholic :
PP is a static fight when you have 30 feets of range and you are isolate for the rest of the raid assuming you can IB on green.
Moreover a TTW fire Endgear can reach 20k even more on PP fight, I have no screen and i m not end gear. I can only share you one of my last LK fight I had record (Link) I turn all the fight between 18k8 and 21k with a burst at 33k at the open, and I wasn't endgear I missed 7 pieces at this moment. (I had Neck Shoulders Offhand Gloves Boots 264/264h (SP haste crit) and Wand + belt 264/264h SP spirit crit ; Rest BIS). I don't think you can do that as Arcane mage.


@Nemmish :
It's a wasted point, where do you want to put it in exchange ? Tell me that and I will argue why I tell to put it in Arcane barrage.


Tiny.

[Jakkre]

And what about Fire Blast?

Arcane barrage does kinda low damage and imo just to keep it on a "just in case you have to move" purpouse is a waste of talent points.

Arcane barrage consumes the arcane blast buff which makes it hit significant harder than fire blast.
If u have to move and u are about to lose all the arcane blast stacks then u should use arcane barrage.

[Griste]

Thanks for the tips everyone, I think this is all the information I was looking for! I don't have a big problem with mobility or anything with arcane, it's mostly that I just generally don't really like the spec. I only use arcane barrage in situations where the target has around 5% health and I won't be able to finish another arcane blast, or when I'm forced to move for a long enough period of time that my blast stacks are going to fall off. Just really like the concept of hitting huge pyros and a lot of crits. Also sounds like more fun to take into BGs or WG on occasion to play some pyro roulette and see if I can one shot someone haha

[Selaya]

Arcane barrage consumes the arcane blast buff which makes it hit significant harder than fire blast.
If u have to move and u are about to lose all the arcane blast stacks then u should use arcane barrage.

If you ever have to drop Arcane Blast due to movement its a l2p issue

Wasting AB stacks on barrage is a waste of time, do not get that talent.

[TinyToys]

I don't have speak about waste AB stacks.

Almost part of damages you get in a fight (and you can avoid ofc), you see them coming, you see flammes, flasks, even malleables and shadow traps coming on your location. and you have a time between this knowledge and the actual hit of the attacks. You almost time have 3 and a lot of time even 5 sec to react, with Arcane Barrage on your spec you have a way to escape. I'll explain: you got the info about the incoming event, you finish your cast and then considering the time you have you choose between two choices first: you channelled your Arcanes Missiles (in order to use the ArcaneBlast stack you have at their full potential) and then use arcane barrage and moove away from the danger during the GCD. Or you have the 2d option, cast one more ArcaneBlast and then channelled your Arcane Missile, put your Arcane Barrage and moove.
With more practice and experience you will get the info of the attack sooner and always take the option 2 when you have less then 3stacks of AB at the moment you take the info.


All is about: how correctly you use your Arcane Barrage and how soon you get the info. Then the Arcane Barrage give you the only truely usefull way to moove on a short distance in a fight.





Tiny.

[trymr0704]

Sorry to butt in. But isnt arcane missiles currently bugged if you have around 1000+ haste? (sometimes makes the last AM just not fire off) which kind of makes arcane mages slightly weaker for end game. because you cant stack as much haste you want because that in turn makes your AM disappear..

[Beanlord]

If you're specing only 3/5 Arcane Stability you're relying that your hpals will have at least 1/3 improved Conc. aura, which is imo bad since imp conc aura is generally a waste of TPs. Withouth an hpal speced into that you need at least 4/5 Arc. Stab.

Specing Arcane Barrage is pointless, you either learn when to move and minimise cast downtime, or you don't. A.Barrage might help you early on when you're just getting into the spec, but after getting to know the fights you're doing there's no reason for you to still have it.

As blizzard is your only real AoE, taking Frost Warding over Ice Shards is pointless.

[TinyToys]

@Rifokelt :
Agreed for Ice Shards, evenif i only build this template in a monotarget way.
For the Hpal yes I considere and Hpal with the talent in the raid. (i don't got what means 'a waste of TPs' sorry i have some lacks in my english)
For the A. Barrage I got what you mean but to my mind you can know your fight how much you want and be as far isolate as you want, except for like 2 bosses (DBS and maybe Festergut) you will always have like minimum 2 or 3 attacks to avoid in an encounter, for most of them you will have even more then that, and this is for theses time A. barrage is usefull, even if it's just a gain of like 50-70k damages it's damages you would not get without it. moove without attack is a totale waste, and use the fireblast deal something like half less damages....

[Beanlord]

Waste of TPs = Talent points that are put in useless places.

Generally speaking, in any and all fights outside of fest/dbs you can either spend your AB stacks long before w/e effect is going to trouble you (rotface slime pools, valanar shock vortex, lk defile, etc.) or you can simply use Blink. In any case over a drawn out fight like Lich King or Halion you're likely to waste a lot of mana by using up AB stacks for A.Barrage. I mean have your preferences if you feel like it, not going to try and force mine upon you.