1. That one point in Shredding Attacks is a complete waste of a talent point. Omen of Clarity frankly also verges on not being a tank talent. It's acceptable to be without 3/3 Infected Wounds if you know you're always gonna have DK's in your raid supplying that 20% attack speed slow. I'd never be without 3/3 Feral Instinct; you're gonna Swipe on single-target, on occasion.

  2. Ok, well is the dps incresase better with Feral Instincts or the Master Shapshifter.?
    And would you know bout the armor having a cap or not?

  3. Ok, well is the dps incresase better with Feral Instincts or the Master Shapshifter.?
    And would you know bout the armor having a cap or not?
    About the feral talents I've no idea, but armor has a cap of 49,905 points versus targets lvl 83 (bosses). At that point you're reducing all incoming physical damage by 75%. Anything past that gives nothing. But, as far as I'm aware, reaching the cap is entirely unthinkable when it comes to feral.
    Edited: October 14, 2016

  4. This is my current speck.
    http://wotlk.openwow.com/talent#0ZxMGssrzceRc0zAkbEczb

    I was wondering if the talents between the Natural Shapeshifter, Master Shapshifter and the 1 point in Shredding Attacks is better than Ferral Instinct and Infected wounds.

    Also was wondering about the gear of a druid and sticking with solid agility/stam only gear. Wouldn't that help more than the stre/stam gear. For more armor and damage crit which would help better then resistance a little. Or is their a armor cap for druids?
    Shredding attacks is a near-useless talent for purely bear form; It is more of a Kitty dps talent as it allows the most spammed kitty ability, shred, to be cost-effective.

    Also, I would NEVER take furor 5/5, only 3/5 is taken and that's only because there's nothing else worthwhile in the first tier of resto.

    Recommended edits:
    -1 Shredding attacks
    -2 Furor
    +3 Feral Instincts

    http://wotlk.openwow.com/talent#0ZxGGscrzceRc0zAkbAczb

    Also, the reason why bears use stre/stam gear is purely because of the fact that ALL "Tanking" items in the game at level 80 have "Stre+Stam". The only "Agi+Stam" pieces in the game are DPS pieces. I talk about this under the "8. Items and Stats" section, but the basic summary is that the Tanking items tend to have more defensively orientated stats, and also higher Stamina than their Agility-DPS counterparts.

    Of course, as Druids are limited to equipping Leather items, all our leather pieces are the standard "Agi+Stam" type pieces, the same "DPS-orientated" gear that is also used by kitties and rogues. It's only when we're picking Cloaks/Rings/Amulets, and to a lesser degree, Weapons and Trinkets, that we have the choice between Tank items with strength, or Agility items with DPS stats.

    Some Direct comparisons are;
    Devium's Eternally Cold Ring
    Frostbrood Sapphire Ring
    Where in this case, the difference is 102 agility vs 102 strength // 102 stam vs 142 stam// and AP+ARP+Crit vs Def/Dodge/Armor
    So yes, getting rid of the Strength and swapping it for the Agility is favorable, but that's pretty much where the advantages end. The tank item has superior stamina by almost 40%, and also possesses more armor bonus than the agility item would've given.

    The ideal item would be a tanking item that had agility instead of strength, but these items unfortunately simply don't exist.

  5. Ok, well is the dps incresase better with Feral Instincts or the Master Shapshifter.?
    And would you know bout the armor having a cap or not?
    Well, in a direct comparison between the 2 talents, I would classify the Feral Instinct 3/3 talent a CORE talent that I wouldn't suggest anyone skipping, it's your highest AoE threat-boost which is important for multi-target tanking, and also, swipe does have a place in even your single target rotation based on playstyle, gear and preference.

    Also Master Shapeshifter needs 3 talents in a useless precursor, and is technically equivalent to Naturalist.
    Master Shapeshifter is an optional talent but if you wish to take Master Shapeshifter, then the points would usually come from elsewhere in the feral tree, such as dropping Infected wounds (which you have done so) and dropping something like Shredding Attacks, Primal Precision, King of the Jungle or Brutal Impact.

  6. Ok, i do appreciate all of your all's input. And looking at all the stats and what not, i am feeling more comfortable with this knowledge and tanking. I actually do have those talents set up that you had linked in your first response. Reason i don't do infected, is yes we have DK's int eh raid, and for the King of The Jungle. I honestly don't use enrage but once every few fights, i really have no issues with rage, so i thought that putting it to talents that would be more beneficial. Anyone else have issues with rage not being a issue, or should i move some talents around again??


    BTW, toon name ----- Amoonrand (icecrown)
    If yall wanna look at my stats as i gear and what not

  7. Ok, i do appreciate all of your all's input. And looking at all the stats and what not, i am feeling more comfortable with this knowledge and tanking. I actually do have those talents set up that you had linked in your first response. Reason i don't do infected, is yes we have DK's int eh raid, and for the King of The Jungle. I honestly don't use enrage but once every few fights, i really have no issues with rage, so i thought that putting it to talents that would be more beneficial. Anyone else have issues with rage not being a issue, or should i move some talents around again??


    BTW, toon name ----- Amoonrand (icecrown)
    If yall wanna look at my stats as i gear and what not
    4p T10 Bonus is the reason why people take King of the Jungle; But as you don't yet have 4 pieces of tier 10 this isn't a talent that you should grab quite yet.
    Basically, when you get your 4th piece of tier 10, Enrage becomes a little bit like Barkskin; a short cooldown defensive that can help take some strain off of healers. When used with Berserk at the start of a fight, Enrage with King of the Jungle can boost start-of-fight threat quite nicely.
    Without 4 piece t10, enrage actually causes a very big loss in armor and should be dispelled if used in combat; The macro i linked for this purpose dispels the enrage debuff if you press the macro twice, so it's really only used if you need 20 instant rage.

    #showtooltip Enrage
    /cancelaura Enrage
    /cast Enrage

    From your armory, I've noticed a couple things.

    1) Berserking weapon enchant - This LOSES you armor, which is VERY bad news for a tank. Bears should use Mongoose instead, an increase to our Maul speed, dodge chance, armor and Attack power/Crit.

    2)Ashen verdict DPS ring- Swap that for the tanking ring if you'll be playing bear, as you don't seem to have a kitty spec that I can see. As we covered earlier, the agility alone doesn't make the DPS piece worthwhile, as you're losing alot of stamina and defensive stats from the Tanking ring (such as the armor proc). Also look into some ICC rep farms, getting the exalted ring is an easy avenue for an upgrade.

    3)You're using the 245 idol, which I consider utterly useless. The ilvl 226 Idol of the Corruptor, for 19 Conquest Emblems (downgrade your triumph emblems) from the EoC vendor in dalaran gives you 153 agility which is better in almost every circumstance.

    4)If you donated for your Oathbinder within the last 24 hours I highly recommend claiming a misbought item on it and buying the Wrathful Gladiator's Greatstaff instead, which is by miles a superior tanking weapon than any PvE item in the game for 99% of fights, especially where threat isn't an issue, and in the longterm, a much more difficult weapon to obtain as Bear's are highly sought-after tanks for Lich King, an the replaceable Bloodfall staff from BQL is a very very easy staff to win (basically no other classes roll on it, except maybe BM hunters.)

    All in all I can see you've gotten some nice BoEs for starting out, it's just a matter of finishing off the rest of your T10 (I see some new shoulders would be a great next purchase) and grinding up the rest of your gear.
    Edited: October 15, 2016 Reason: woops. wrong quote.

  8. Ok yeah, i am bout to run ICC, hence why i haven't switched my ring, but ill admit i am beyond the time for a trade in weapon.
    I think ill have more coins later when i sell one of the toons i grinded. Otherwise ill get that enchant def., but it looks like a small change honestly when u look at stat comparison when you look at mongoose and beserking.
    But i will change talents once more when i get a chance to see what i can switch or sacrifice with the build i am running.
    Lastly the idol situation. I thought it would have been best with the increase to dodge chance. hence that what a bear usually needs the most, and then get the 264 idol for the more agility per stack on the lacerate and what not to increase armor and damage, cause by then ill be 264/277+ gear and wont have many issues.

  9. Idol of the crying moon (the 264) is definitely the best idol for bears, beyond any doubt; However, all your EoFs should initially go towards buying your 4 pieces of Tier 10, so you likely won't get to use it until after you get to do a bit of ICC.
    The other 2 idols are the Idol of Mutilation, the 245 that gives 200 dodge rating upon swiping, and the 226 Idol of the Corruptor which gives 153 Agility upon mangling. This 153 agility becomes 168.3 Agility if you have Blessing of Kings.

    Corrupter; 168 agility on mangling - Higher uptime on boss and increased threat generation and EHP from armor, slightly lower avoidance but avoidance is considered less helpful than EHP and the resulting threat gains and armor/EHP gains.
    Add in that mangle is always used off cd, this idol has maximum uptime on boss fights, especially as there's little reason for a bear at this gear level to be using swipe on single target, especially without 2 piece tier 2 bonus and without ICC 30% damage buff. As you are most likely to also have kings whilst inside a raid, this all favors the ilvl 226 Idol of the Corruptor; 168 agility with a higher proc uptime during boss fights than the 200 dodge idol.

    Idol of Mutilation; 200 dodge rating, no threat increase, no armor or EHP gains, only a slight chance of avoidance.
    As AoE tanking usually means not using mangle, the Idol of Corruptor gets much less uptime on AoE. However, you lose out on the armor and Crit chance benefits from the 168 agility, resulting in lower comparative threat. However, it's still possible to work a few mangles into your rotation between swipes, and generally trash tanking isn't dangerous enough to warrant extra dodge, the extra threat from agility would be much more helpful if you manage to get Corrupter to proc. Overall, even on trash fights, the Idol of Corruptor is useable, though a slight hassle to utilize. Purely swiping gives Mutilation a higher uptime and the advantage in this case.

    However, if you're using one of either of these idols, it is quite safe to assume you are not yet farming ICC; hence why you've not yet purchased your 264 EoF idol; What this means is that you are mainly farming ToTC for gear. As ToTC has no trash, the idol of mutilation becomes redundant. As long as you have raid buffs, the idol of the Corruptor is a superior choice for boss tanking.

    Basically, by the point you start finding yourself in situations where you'd be using the 245 idol, you are likely already tanking ICC trash, meaning you will start quickly accumulating EoFs enough to purchase the 264 idol; further making the 245 idol redundant, as it is only useful by the time you've almost replaced it.

    It's also important to remember that Swipe is PURELY damage dependant for threat; Unlike lacerate, who's tooltip says it does a high amount of bonus threat, swipe does not. This means that swipe's threat is purely gear dependant; The more geared you are, the more damage you will deal and the more threat swipe does - What this means for a lower geared bear (aka one that has not yet farmed ICC) is that you are at the highest risk of losing threat on AoE swipe spaming; Another case when more threat helps more than avoidance.

    TL;DR - The 245 idol has no place in the game for bear tanks. Use the 226 idol until you can afford the 264 idol
    Edited: October 20, 2016

  10. 245 idol proc from lacerate too....
    Print your previous post. Twist the sheet into a tube, and shove it yourself far away.
    Edited: October 19, 2016

  11. In all boss fight circumstances, you are more likely to be mangling frequently with little to no swipes resulting resulting in a lack of uptime for Mutilation's already unreliable proc.
    I never said it didn't proc from lacerate. The 2 paragraphs compare the 2 idols, the sentence regarding to each sums up that mangle is useable on aoe to force a proc, whilst swipes should be avoided on bosses until 2 piece tier 10 set is achieved, preferably also whilst inside ICC 30% buff.

    I'll re edit to make it clearer for people like you.

  12. Hey there,

    First of all, thanks a lot for this huge piece of work which has proven to be very helpful. However, it does raise a question as I don't quite understand your calculations. How come 18 stamina gives you 304 HP ?

    Thanks in advance for your answer, and keep up the good work :)

  13. Hi, just wondering, some people told me that i have to use some gems of Stamina/Strengh and not full stamina, Because it will increase my absobs with Savage Defense . They say it would be better to tank like that ICC since you have -30% dodge.
    Personally i prefer using full stamina gems and only 1 gem Stamina/Agility to applicate the metagem..
    What do you think.?

  14. And for the weapons, honestly I would take Oathbinder. The extra socket means that the stamina difference is 225 vs 275, 50 stamina, which is the only thing it has going for it. The advantages of Oathbinder vs Gladstaff:

    Rough figures given proper talents, kings, trueshot aura, and solid majestic zircon socketed.

    http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=50735
    ~4.45% dodge (before DR)
    426 armor
    4,660 health
    5.03% crit
    8.72% ArP
    5,987 AP

    http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=51432
    ~4.15% dodge (before DR)
    397 armor
    5,478 health
    4.69% crit
    5,307 AP

    Oathbinder offers ~0.30% dodge (before DR), 29 armor, 0.34% crit, 8.72% ArP, and 680 more AP than Wrathful Gladiator's Greatstaff at the cost of 818 health and some unnecessary resilience.

    WGG is more overall survivability but if you have either then your gear is sturdy enough that such a small degree of survivability is negligible and with that in mind I'd take Oathbinder for the higher threat ceiling and damage potential it offers. Oathbinder also makes a very attractive weapon for cats while WGG lags behind in that aspect.
    Edited: February 14, 2017

  15. Mega Late reply, but as I've just returned to Warmane recently you'll have to forgive me.

    The BiS list in the guide needs to be revised, as there has been multiple changes to the realms since Ragnaros and Deathwing; Notably the fact that Parry-Haste is now properly implemented, meaning that Haste is now detrimental, and Expertise above the soft cap is that much more valuable.

    Threat has also been reworked with the absense of taunt-swapping. Back when these BiS lists were compiled, for some random reason threat generation from taunts was insanely high and after a few taunt swaps the MT would have enough threat to go afk for half an hour without losing aggro. (Hence the value of WGG instead of hit rating)

    In fact, there's just been way too many changes. I'll basically need to proof read the whole guide and rewrite entire sections from scratch. Talents, BiS List, redo all the Links that point at OpenWoW.

    It's a huge undertaking as this guide is almost 20,000 words long. For now take the BiS list with a bit of salt, I'll revise it when i get to that part
    Edited: December 17, 2017

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