1. Im sorry funky, but if you have Tidal wave procs, Healing Wave should take priory over LHW, even in an oh **** moment, even with a higher crit chance 12k isnt going to save a tank, a 30k crit, will.
    i never said it prolly is not a better choice? i agree with you in fact but im not going around worrying about LHW or HW in 80% of fights since those are AoE fights. I swap trinkets and playstyle when doing the other bosses and ofc cast more direct heals. LHW and HW hit good enough for me without adding talents/glyphs to them. its just heals that are rarely used that i tend not to focus my gear and talents on.

    354 haste vs 407 spell power
    if you add in totem, 574 haste vs 662 Sp if u add in relic
    the time difference is about 8% btw. (7.96% - 8.09%)
    im lost what are we talking about here what haste vs what spell power? swapping trinkets? gear? im lost what we are comparing exactly here.

    either way we are talking about about a .11-.13 heal difference so you would get a "free"( what i mean by this is that while you would start casting your 11th chain heal chain heal i would be on my 12th thus i would have one more full CH out) every 10 chains going with haste and this would continue to get lower every 9-10 casts vs if your 662 exrtra sp hits for each chain 662x4(CH hits)x10(amount of ch before haste would grant a free heal) gives you 26,480. so at max 26k going with spell power vs getting a free CH which has a chance to hit all the way up to like 35k so actually haste is the better choice when AoE spam healing. or look at it like this. its basically the same when you add in the extra CH you get every 10 casts. so it really does not matter what way you go but haste has the potential to do more than the sp would give. Or better yet haste has the potential to do less or more healing but Sp is more static.

    in fact im not even sure where you are going with all those numbers. im not going to worry about my 3rd and 4th most used heals unless im doing a certain boss like HLK or RS. why are we even talking about LHW and HW all of a sudden? i thought we were discussing CH. im not saying ur math is wrong but... most ICC fights revolve around AoE CH spams

    i understand your view but there are soooo many different ways to play a shaman that i cant say your wrong or right and that is the exact way everyone should play and spec. ive seen resto shamans with 2 set and casting 1.3 second chains outside raid with no rip up. it just really depends.

    also why are you giving up 2 points in ancsetrial knowledge? granted is only 9sp but if your so focused on sp and maxing it idk why earths grasp. pointless except 1 boss and thats HLK.

    ive said it once and ill say it again. this guide is just a roundabout way to play shaman as an overall way not a boss specific way because literally to do a shaman guide you would have to base it on AoE healing and tank healing specs/gear/glyphs ect. because everything else is just how you want to do it.

  2. Have u tested it? I guess it can proc quite often when u spam chain heal.
    tested it again today im not sure if there is something effecting it in ICC only but in todays Ulduar 25m raid on the heavy AoE fights it only did at best 35k healing

  3. so ill start from the bottom up ^_^

    also why are you giving up 2 points in ancsetrial knowledge? granted is only 9sp but if your so focused on sp and maxing it idk why earths grasp. pointless except 1 boss and thats HLK.
    so for me atleast, 9sp, is very little, and id love to max it, BUT, im not progressing ICC anymore
    if i thought id never dk LoD or Rs25hc again, i would 5/5 it, but i am doing LK and trying rs25hc's, so it makes a difference, and the first 11 bosses (or 12 in normals) dont bother me, nor does the other 3 Rs, if things got fixed/broken, and LoD was out of reach, then hell yeah id respec, but for now, every little bit i can squeeze out during these fights, im gonna push it.

    most ICC fights revolve around AoE CH spams
    to a point, even in fights like BQL, healing wave should be used, yes not spammed to the point of mana burning ur self, but they need to go out, especially air phase, people arent stacked enough for that, and if they are, gonna die no matter how much haste or Sp you have. my main point is that, focusing purly on chain heal, and getting the cast time down to bare minimum, is only going to shoot u in the foot later on, ive seen the shamans with 80% chain heals, 0 HW, 0 LHW, 3 riptides, ive seen it and i've cried. and i cry more when officers of guilds commend them for not letting players die in fights, then get to LK and have infest problems and point at disc, shaman still 0 healing waves, let me try from a different angle, can you give more attention to healing wave in ur guide, because with out it, you wont be teaching shamans to LoD, your just teaching them two button classes, and we are so much more than that, shamans are the swiss army knife of healers, tank heal, raid heal gods, but smashing chain heal. no.

    Or better yet haste has the potential to do less or more healing but Sp is more static.
    agreed, but how quickly do you reach that line where SP is better? i vote 1250, u recommend 1400 (and then you also use the shock from idol, 1640) im looking at that going, the spell power healing over took you 400 stats ago, and that the 220 has gone in to DR values already, and you still arent casting more spells than i will between ur chain heals, even if u fit 3 chain heals between ur riptide, and i only fit two and a healing wave, the spell power boost, on all the heals done, will be higher in HPS, aswell as a healing wave isnt a smart heal, so it will be cast on the player that is actually low, and with healing addons you know an hpally isng going to jump the heal because ur cast is faster than him anyway.

    so my logic here is SP is > than haste, once u reach roughly 1250, but then dont shock, u hit DR, (220 haste vs 255 sp)

    about the haste/spellpwoer maths, its based on how you gem, haste vs spell power gemming + idol
    (23 sp = 20 haste in gem value)

  4. first off i did name other heals in the guide. in fact all of them are there. i also mention that healing will vary from boss to boss. i mention i think at least twice in the guide that shamans are the most versatile healer in the game. Not being rude here but maybe you need to reread the guide a bit and you will see where i put those comments in.

    PS this is straight out of the guide...


    Shamans are very versatile and there is no one “perfect” guide that can be given to really define them it all comes down to playstyle but there are some obvious choices that you should get and build your healing around.

    First off let me say that there is no such thing as haste cap for chain heal especially here on molten where most the fights in comparison to retail are AoE friendly fights thus making haste and chain heal the better choice. To maximize your healing in these encounters haste becomes key in making your chain heal do its best. When focusing on more direct healing fights such as Heroic Lich King or Heroic Ruby Sanctum spell power comes in as a better choice. This is why you will want separate pieces of gear and be able to constantly be able to swap items based on the type of fight you will be encountering.

    So how much haste should I try to get? This varies upon your play style. I personally stack almost every stat and piece of gear for it on all my AoE encounters. On other fights such as HLK mana regeneration and spell power becomes more important. Just a few pieces or trinkets swapped should be enough to keep you going through the fight.
    just for the record i do not recommend using haste totem vs Toc CH one or the riptide sp gain one simply because we don't have the hit rating necessary to proc it 100% of the time and thus it can be a wasted GCD.

    HPS honestly is pointless. i mean there should be a respectable amount of healing done by each healer but HPS is purely for the lulz. HPS wont save that one guy out of range of all the other healers except you and your too busy spamming CH to pull off and drop him a heal. and your right a good shaman should be able to pull off and know how to do more than just CH because it will screw them in the end and the raid. However CH is still our workhorse and the thing i believe that our stats/gems/enchants/glyphs should be primarily built around. Granted everyone knows i play resto druid as my main so ill use that as an example. While rejuv,WG, SM our are best heals we still use nourish and regrowth but we dont go around gemming for them or getting more haste to cap RG to a GCD simply because its not going to help our our overall healing in the end. Granted even resto druids in progression guilds should have a different restoration spec when working on HLK a well built one can still even in rejuv/wg spec do his job effectively but i do a lot of direct healing to get people topped off and back into the fight just as well as a druid who might have a little more talents/glyphs/gems/ect built around direct heals. either way it gets the job done enough to allow me to back to revuj/wg spam. this is the same thing for shamans. yea my HW or LHW might not hit as hard as some but its still going to hit decent enough to allow me to go back to CH regardless and that is all that is needed. You have to understand your talking about heals that really in the grand scheme of things get used very little and not enough to warrant spending extra gear/gems/talents ect around them they perform well enough at base even to do their job effectivly. You want to focus on maxing your healing which is done by pumping up CH. Now again this does vary on certain bosses like RS in which we use our shamans to heal the tank in P2-3 in the shadow realm. Here CH is about useless except when you have time bc tank is topped off and no cutters are out. it is one of the very few times where CH really takes a backseat to LHW and HW. that's why i roll 2 separate healing specs and swap gear like a boss which i also mention in my guide should be done.

    your right healing wave should be used on BQL in air phase im not saying there are not times even in AoE fights where your going to peel off and hit others with big single target heals. But thats usually a rare occasion and also depends on how good your fellow healers are. If they are reliable you should not have to worry as much. So in that regard your right im not going to worry about the paladin jumping my heal im going to rely on him to do his job unless i see he is OOR, tanks are getting smashed, or if hes just plain bad. This goes for all healers in fact. being able to rely on your other healers is crucial.

  5. TL;DR

    A good shaman does NOT spam Chain Heal, please do not teach differently, instead a shaman must dedicates his entire life studying the mysteries of the Tidal Waves procs and then master its use in conjunction with Rapid Currents

  6. TL;DR

    A good shaman does NOT spam Chain Heal, please do not teach differently, instead a shaman must dedicates his entire life studying the mysteries of the Tidal Waves procs and then master its use in conjunction with Rapid Currents
    well maybe you guys should read. bc no one here has said that is the way to play the class. its not in the guide. nor is it a good way to max your healing abilities.

  7. im feeling overly lazy today, ive noticed more issues btw.

    Gbow vs Mana totem, they dont "stack" the highest mp5 takes prio, that means that the differnce between a totem and gbow is 4 mp5. and ive tested it less than 72 hours ago, as well as testing improved mana totem vs normal gbow, and aswell as 2 points in hpally gbow vs basic shaman totem ect ect.... there isnt a big difference in mp5, its minior like 14 mp5 difference (considering gbow is 84 mp5) meaning its not stacking, just highest one takes prio.

    also really annoyed people still think fire totems dont stack or remove buffs..... #1 they do "stack" if placed in the right order, and if placed in the wrong order, the highest one takes prio.

    in other words, dont care drop totems. and if someone complains, redrop ur totems and watch ur sp go up.

    earth totem, horn of winter vs str of earth dont stack (mentioned)
    and stone skin doesnt stack with druid buff, so stone skin is useless, dks forget to rebuff mid fight so totem > horn , or if u have faith in dks, use earth grasp or leave it blank (will save mana when u redrop totems)

    in essesne, if u have a Hpally thats specced Gbow, and have ele shaman, and a druid and dk in raid group, drop one totem, (pssst, thats the 5% spell haste), and if u have a frost dk as well, screw dem totems! go no totems and show them whos an OP class. (maybe healing stream, but who cares man, thats like 0.00000000001% healing, and 99% of that is over heal.)

    i cant even remember what else i wanted to type, hell of alot better guide than other people out ther, but needs tweeks, i just hope you can click on to what im saying can update it... but hey, funkie, Love you man <3. i just love shamans more. best Rdudu on server.
    http://forum.molten-wow.com/showthread.php?t=271876 <-- i cried my eyes out......

    <insert quote from shadowirk for emphasis>
    you sir, are a true shaman /respect.

  8. yea i saw that last night at work not sure wtf thats all about

  9. either way we are talking about about a .11-.13 heal difference so you would get a "free"( what i mean by this is that while you would start casting your 11th chain heal chain heal i would be on my 12th thus i would have one more full CH out) every 10 chains going with haste and this would continue to get lower every 9-10 casts vs if your 662 exrtra sp hits for each chain 662x4(CH hits)x10(amount of ch before haste would grant a free heal) gives you 26,480. so at max 26k.
    Nope. Spell power doesn't work that way. The general formula is about:

    Healing done = (Base Heal + Spell Power * (Base Spell Power coefficient + Addition from talents)) * (Talent bonuses if any + 30% ICC bonus + whatever bonus).
    Chain heal being somewhat more complex do to it's jumping thing.

    Chain Heal spell power coefficient is 292.19% (with Glyph, Source: WoW Wiki), hence the 662 SP turns out to be a 1934 SP bonus, 1934*13=25,142k. (it's a lot more if you take into account the 4p T10 bonus)

    And a 0.13sec difference when the cast time is 1.63sec is actually one free CH every 13 CH, that is ~35k more. Plus the fact that actually, 3 of the CH where cast after a riptide, that rather 12CH to get one free. Same conclusion. And even if you take into account latency and reflexes you get your CH cast time increased by 0.1-0.2sec hence it probably somewhat get a bit more even but still it's 27k vs.35k.

    Conclusion: Haste seems to be better than SP in terms of raw throughput... and in terms of real healing, what is better: healing more people with less overheal or oing more overheal on less people? I prefer less overheal on more people, especially as in this case, if by chance you cancel your CH to emergency heal some player, you have lost way less (less time and less healing).

    Conclusion: I convinced myself that the haste shaman is the best one...(see below how I get convinced) and I was a mixed Haste-SP Shaman... I'll regem some of my gear I think.

    Actually, I have one more generic question about healing. Because healing is so much different from DPSing, raw output is not actually the only thing that matters - of course, begin able to burst some healing when needed is important - but working in synergy the the 4 other healers is actually way more essential to the success of a raid, in my opinion. The typical composition will be 1 HPala, 1 Disc, 1 Resto Shaman, 1-2 Resto Druid and 0-1 Holy Priest. Now, where's the guide that (generically) tackles the healing 'hows' and 'whens' of each players?

    Let me try to make myself clearer.

    Assume you have a Disc Priest that is a bit overdoing it, spamming shield on every single player, burning down his mana in a non rapture-friendly environment. Obviously, the raid take little damage and our resto shaman, our resto druid and our holy priest are wasting their mana in overheals - which is needed to to soak random spiky damage that is not absorbed. What happens is: 1/ Our disco eats up his mana, and eats up innervates and 2/Our other healers are wasting their own mana in pure overhealing. Succes-wise, that's not really best, the moment the disco get finally oom, the other healers have eaten up a significant part of their own mana and won't sustain the incoming damage for long, as they are near oom (ok, the resto druid is not oom, but the others are getting close to).
    Had the disco done less zeal, he'd have more mana, he'd have eaten less innervates, and the other healers would have consumed the same amount of mana, just it'd have done more healing and less overhealing. And inervates are still available.

    I don't know if my point is clear - but a lazy disco would have probably lead to a higher success. Clearly, there's something about healers not overdoing it and being able to sustain the whole fight with regular and sufficient healing.

    Another example: Assume the crappy composition is Resto Druid, Holy Priest and 3 Resto shaman. (Crappy one yes!) If the 3 Resto Shamans aim at max HPS through CH spam, it'll eventually lead to a wipe (Witnessed it, yesyestherearenoobs. Actually the 3rd Shaman was HW the tanks but ran somewhat oom and had to handle some fight motion). But why they wipe, I mean, they followed a well-written CH-spam guide and were making top HPS!

    So somehow, our discussion about these 400haste giving more overall healing than these 662 SP kind of misses the point; which is, which one (400 Haste or 662 SP) will eventually lead to a higher raid success, and it's not necessarily the one giving a higher HPS on recount. (Well, for shamans, it looks so - what about other healers though?)

  10. well like i said before there are ways to reduce Ch to even lower amounts using 2 piece only and thus pushing the 1 sec cap very close with rip up (not sure on the exact numbers but ive seen as low as 1.3 Ch with only haste totem down and no rip up outside raid but i dont think giving up 4 set is worth it) so technically the threshold can be pushed even further.

    while i agree haste to me (not always to others) is better it does mean little to nothing on certain fights such as HLK and HRS both of the endgame bosses although this varies on how you use your shaman our guild uses the shamans as tanks healers in P3-3 in the shadow realm.

    as far as the whole disc thing goes ive said this once and ill say it 10000 times. disc is utterly useless in ICC except one boss, HLK. Oh im sure ill get people to argue this 100 times over and saying that they are best for every fight. #1 absorbs are guessed #2 they do no true actual healing. There is a reason why in retail no one used them until HLK because actual healing was more important vs absorbs.

    Also if your resto druid, hpriest, holy paladin, or rsham are using valynar that bubble from the mace will supersede the disc bubble in terms of priority thus possibly negating the disc bubble all together.

    I think ive mentioned this already in these last few posts but the ability to rely on your other healers and knowing what they bring to the table is crucial indeed. For example when i play rdruid im not even focusing on the tanks however there are certain fights that require me to roll more regrowth than rejuv and even though i have no glyphs or gems that really improve that specific heal greatly i still have enough gear on that it gets the job done.

    well if a disc is that dumb to burn out his mana then he prolly has no clue what hes doing and is bad.

    shamans can spam all day on MOST bosses and have enough mana through mana tide and mana pots that should be enough to sustain them. Dont get me started on druids... if they ooom they should delete their toon. which is why druids are the absolute one class that can spam all day without worrying about mana.

    i think your missing the whole point here in reading your last section. we have discussed using two different specs one for AoE healing one for hard hitting LHW HW actions. and that CH spam is NOT the way to go on some bosses and there are times when you should pull off CH to cover a low member instead of just standing back casting 1 heal all damn day. in fact we've been over that topic about 6 times already and its in the guide.

  11. well if a disc is that dumb to burn out his mana then he prolly has no clue what hes doing and is bad.
    Didi you get it was an example to show the fact that if the 5 healers don't work properly together, just to show that trying to max their own HPS/Absorbs is not the best thing for a raid? We're actually having more or less the same point of view about that, just don't get my example wrong.

    Side remark: Between, from what I understand from Skada LUA code, the absorbs are not guessed, they are taken from the combat log, in which they are obviously not guessed. At least Skada figures about absorbs are right. And your argument about the mace, is 1/ completely wrong (the absorb from the mace will be considered before the bubble, that's most likely, but tell me, do you do 100% overhealing while wearing your mace? No, so it means the absorb effect from the mace wears off and hence the priest bubble will absorb its usual amount.) and 2/ not really likely to happen often.

    Your argument #2 is also off (in my opinion). While being true that they do not do actual healing, every single time they bubble, it's more or less 10-15k(? What's a bubble absorb?) less damage done by the boss to the raid. They don't heal, they lower the pressure on healers - what else would healers want?

    well maybe you guys should read. bc no one here has said that is the way to play the class. its not in the guide. nor is it a good way to max your healing abilities.
    Just read that. Yes, we agree :)

    HPS honestly is pointless. i mean there should be a respectable amount of healing done by each healer but HPS is purely for the lulz. HPS wont save that one guy out of range of all the other healers except you and your too busy spamming CH to pull off and drop him a heal.
    My point in my last post was to support that - and to support the haste stacking vs. the Spell Power stacking, not as a way spam more Chain heal but to be able to throw that heal that'd save this player ***.

  12. tested it again today im not sure if there is something effecting it in ICC only but in todays Ulduar 25m raid on the heavy AoE fights it only did at best 35k healing
    Thats quite low...
    Im pretty sure that trauma is in every location buggy when we talk about the number of procs.
    I tested it many times now and it never ever proced twice in a row so it has definitely some kind of icd.

    Im also 100% sure that trauma used to act different like a half year ago and had no icd.
    The proc used to have like 60% uptime for me so some wotlk update messed it up.

  13. Thats quite low...
    Im pretty sure that trauma is in every location buggy when we talk about the number of procs.
    I tested it many times now and it never ever proced twice in a row so it has definitely some kind of icd.

    Im also 100% sure that trauma used to act different like a half year ago and had no icd.
    The proc used to have like 60% uptime for me so some wotlk update messed it up.
    ran it on druid today in Heroic RS... 72k healing. yea its not working at all as it should be. that healing should be like 10 times that if not more.


  14. Side remark: Between, from what I understand from Skada LUA code, the absorbs are not guessed, they are taken from the combat log, in which they are obviously not guessed. At least Skada figures about absorbs are right. And your argument about the mace, is 1/ completely wrong (the absorb from the mace will be considered before the bubble, that's most likely, but tell me, do you do 100% overhealing while wearing your mace? No, so it means the absorb effect from the mace wears off and hence the priest bubble will absorb its usual amount.) and 2/ not really likely to happen often.

    Your argument #2 is also off (in my opinion). While being true that they do not do actual healing, every single time they bubble, it's more or less 10-15k(? What's a bubble absorb?) less damage done by the boss to the raid. They don't heal, they lower the pressure on healers - what else would healers want?
    .
    there is a lot wrong here so this may take a bit but ill give it a shot. Not being rude in any way just trying to explain things btw.

    the absorbs are messed up. for example as a resto druid when i buff the raid with mace procd the entire raid gets the mace shield. the shield however only adsorbs for 1(unless they are effected by one of my actual heals). literally 1. shamans also get this effect when they put water shield on themselves or drop totems while mace proc is up. however on HLK it will override the disc bubble and count the healing towards the player who has the valynar shield up and count it as their healing. aka mace procs cast buff on raid entire raid shielded for at minimum 1 and all healing goes towards whoever had mace up. Infest hits for around 7k which discs can generally take care of with 1 bubble unless they have super weak bubbles its key to also note here that buffing the raid itself will NOT remove all infest but because the legendary mace proc takes priority over the disc bubble and since the disc cannot bubble everyone there will be players that had your mace proc but still got hit with infest because a disc bubble was not backing up your mace proc. trust me its bugged to hell and it should not work that way. So it does not matter if the disc bubble is behind the mace bubble to back it up because all the healing recorded by skada gives it to the one who has valynar on a target whether the shield is worth 1-30000. so in that regard yes healing IS guessed. World of Logs also records this in the same fashion. Well funky how do disc priests in your raid catch you in healing? the mace does have an 45 sec CD. This allows me to cover every other infest but not every single one.

    TLDR? mace bubbles with disc bubbles on same target? healing gets recorded for person with mace. its broke.

    you have to understand there was a reason why disc was not used in retail and why i think it should be used a lot less here. its just plain unnecessary. They are a mitigating healer not an actual healer in the sense of the word. ICC really buffed the hell out of this class and since absorbs work on everything it was a much better class inside ICC than out. think about it. When is the last time you saw a disc priest in HRS/ToC(LOL dont bring up twins bc fight is bugged to crap)/Ony? prolly never since absorbs dont do anything (ok not anything but very very very little) there. Disc is not a class that your going to rely on to regain actual health thats just not the way they work yet it is for every other class. No matter what people will say the absorbs are guessed since it is not working correctly here on molten when recording healing. its close but not 100% accurate and varies on some boss fights (see HLK explanation above).

  15. but because the legendary mace proc takes priority over the disc bubble
    Ahhh! That's true, indeed, now that you say it, since in the combat log, it says absorbs but not [/i]absorbed by ability x given by player y[/i]. The absorbs are granted to the one who places the last absorbing buff on the target. The RecountGuessedAbsorb name make way more sense now. It doesn't guess the amount, it guesses the source of the absorb! However, the total amount of absorbs, of all players combined, is exact, since it comes from the combat log. Okay, Skada figures are probably a bit off, not given the absorb the the right player. Thanks for the info, I'll pay a greater attention to it.

    Yeah, about disc, they are great mitigation players... in AoE heavy fights. ToC is not really AoE heavy (except Twins which are indeed completely bugged), since Anub'arak Leeching swarms bypass the shields, and the disc has absolutely no use there. In ICC though, as there are payload of either regular heavy random damage (explosions, splash, flames, infests) or small raid-wide damage (small random damage don't need a disc and actually eats his mana too fast), their bubble actually mitigate that (heavy-spiky damage) and relax the stress off the healers. Maybe Blizzard even designed the infest to give some use to disc. About HRS I can't really say, but I suppose highly mobile raid-healers (druids, holy priests) in the shadow phase do good enough not to need damage mitigation, and it's actually probably better to have a Holy using Body and Soul on marked targets than a disc debuffing the raid with Weakened Soul.

    Thanks for the info anyway, I learned something I didn't know.

    EDIT: While I'm a it, there's something about Elemental Weapons... It does increase the SP bonus of Earthliving Weapon (an extra 45SP). Isn't it also supposed to increase the healing done by Earthliving itself by 30%? It says increases the bonus healing of your Earthliving Weapon by 30%... that 652 healing over 12sec seems not to be included, but I'm actually unsure - did someone test that and have a clear yes/no answer?

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