WotLK [Guide] PvE Unholy Death Knight 3.3.5

[taralej]

Reaping* Depends if 1xSS > 2xBS as per gear. And even so, it's 3 TPs in case you can spend them elsewhere more useful. Ghoul Frenzy is considered a bad choice, too.

On a side note, I decided to go serious about UDK DPS and my ghoul dies on every single boss fight there is... WAY too low HP, no AoE Avoidance, no armor, no resistances. I mean, come on - it even died on Anub'arak's Insect Swarm in Azjol'Nerub... The spec is fun and I can easily outDPS other FDKs with same or even better gear... considering that my ghoul survives at least half of the fight...

[Whiteman]

try this build if you dont like your ghoul, http://wotlk.openwow.com/talent#jZG0...hIxczg00x0uIqo

[angrylol]

Reaping helps more than just 1ss>2bs lols, bone armor, ghoul enrage(your ghoul dies? try ernage him, call him back, deathcoil him sometimes maybe??), those use unholy runes which are for ss... how can you not see that? ss is top damager and if you lose one each 30 secs(and more) how can you expect to do decent damage? with reaping you actually GAIN some more ss over time using both blood(death) runes. Use damn glyph of ghoul.

Edit: Ghoul is 10-15% of total damage[depends on encounter] for 4 points, please tell me whicth talents give more than that ffs

[taralej]

Reaping helps more than just 1ss>2bs lols, bone armor, ghoul enrage(your ghoul dies? try ernage him (needs U(D) rune - breaks your rotation), call him back (cooldown begins upon ghoul death), deathcoil him sometimes maybe??(DPS loss)), those use unholy runes which are for ss... how can you not see that? ss is top damager and if you lose one each 30 secs(and more) how can you expect to do decent damage? (by using the most underused DK spell - Blood Tap) with reaping you actually GAIN some more ss over time using both blood(death) runes.(which is exactly why you shouldn't pick Ghoul Frenzy, so you can use those 2 D runes for SS instead of Ghoul Frenzy + Blood Strike. As I said, Reaping is only better if SS>2xBS - otherwise Unholy Blight and Dirge are way better) Use damn glyph of ghoul.

Edit: Ghoul is 10-15% of total damage[depends on encounter] for 4 points, please tell me whicth talents give more than that ffs (That's true, and an UDK should always spend those 3 TPs for getting the ghoul as a pet. Alas, if only it didn't die 10-15 sec into most fights on Warmane)

You're seeing Reaping as a talent which helps you get your other cooldowns up and running, while actually the main reason for picking it is one more SS. The rest is easily handled by Blood Tap, considering you don't decide to pick Ghoul Frenzy for some reason and make your life harder and your DPS lower.

These are the two optimal builds for UDK DPS:

Early UDK build.
Late UDK build.

The reason why you don't take Morbidity is because for single-target it means +15% dmg on DC for 3 TPs, while Unholy Blight means a +10% dmg on DC in the form of a DoT, which STACKS like Deep Wounds - this for just one TP, leaving the other 2 points for Dirge. I could go further and actually pick Morbidity over Ravenous Dead, but I cba doing the math on whether it will be a DPS gain or loss on Warmane since your ghoul dying on boss fights is pretty much a "gamble" and if it does survive the whole fight, then Ravenous Dead > Morbidity. Also, +3% Str with end-gear is pretty big, compared to improving the damage of just one spell.

And here is all of the information you need, sadly with outdated links... For glyphs I'm using Icy Touch, which is a ~3% overall dmg increase; SS, which is a no-brainer; and Dark Death. You may say that I'm neglecting my ghoul and I'll answer - yes, with the current situation on Warmane I see no reason to prioritize on it. It literally has half the health it's supposed to have, deals much less damage than it's supposed to, and has no Avoidance, no armor, and no resistances. I'd wager it also doesn't scale properly from some stats at all - hit, haste...

Edit: Oh, look!
https://www.warmane.com/bugtracker/report/314
https://www.warmane.com/bugtracker/report/154
https://www.warmane.com/bugtracker/report/2310

[angrylol]

Reaping is good to maintain cooldowns AND do more SS's. And why lose GDC[oh it don't have GCD, but still] for blood tap if you can just get runes with Reaping(passively)? Of coarse blood tap is awesome and helps in many situations.
Ghoul enrage does not brake rotation if you have Reaping... and if you limit yourself with such thing as "rotation". All it does is givie more dps and lets ghoul survive(even more dps). I don't see how not-keeping-ghoul-alive with death coil is dps loss in most situations. You don't have to spam it on ghoul 24/7, just maybe once per encounter after some aoe or something.
Of coarse its hard to keep ghoul alive and do decent damage if you blindly follow "rotation"(tunnel vision) or something.

I'm using http://wotlk.openwow.com/talent#jZG0xxZfMhIx0dg0uhzuIqo build, Glyph of disease, ghoul and dark death. I can be ahead/on par with best frost dk's and be well over my damage "quota" in every encounter. And after ghoul(and other bugs) is fixed it will be even better.

All I can tell is that you have to adapt to situation, take runes, runic power, ghoul(use his skills actively), know encounter(when to gargoyle) into consideration and you will do great with unholy. It is fun spec and you have to be aware. I'm not telling all this to those most active in discussion, but to all DKs out there.
Don't forget to vote up those bugs taralej linked.

P.S. I like utility, more options better than flat theoretical damage increase.
P.S.S. by "call him back" I meant out of harms way before he takes damage(Leap yo). Shouldn't let him die, 30 secs downtime on ghoul will surely put you at bottom of damage charts.

[taralej]

Glyph of Disease is pretty bad for single-target ever since they removed Pestilence rolling diseases and made it check stats on every cast. PS + IT is much much better to keep diseases. Scourge Strike is the better choice by a long shot - it opens up more GCDs for Death Coil, it allows another rune cycle, and it basically increases the number of ticks on your diseases from 5 to 8. For AoE you can either PS + IT and Pest, or simply Tab between targets and Pest, then throw your next DnD if you've taken Morbidity, Blood Tap + Blood Boil, and then finally one SS with the leftover FU pair.

When I'm saying DC on ghoul is a DPS loss, I mean that instead of using it for damage we have to use it for healing the damned thing because it doesn't work and dies too fast. You say we should adapt and that's exactly what I'm doing - neglecting the ghoul while still keeping optimal DPS.

Again, the point of Reaping is one more SS every other rune cycle - not keeping cooldowns. Bone Shield has 1min CD, Blood Tap too - that's all you need. Ghoul Frenzy does break your rotation - instead of using another SS with the DD pair, you're wasting it for GF + BS, which is inferior. Using Reaping for anything than SS is not "utility" - it's messing with your runes and losing DPS.

[Bensten]

Do you have numbers - average damage of BS and SS - in a raidsituation?

Reaping is only a good talent choice if 2xBS < 1xSS, which wasn't the case in BiS-gear last time I checked.

[angrylol]

taralej I see your point, however I consider it a win, being able to refresh diseases at instant, right before downtime, that's a dps increase where it counts.
I realy don't think 3 SS are better than 2 SS, Ghoul Frienzy and one Blood strike.
Can't help, but to think you have some sort of training dummy spec. My build gives more option in raid situations, you can't predict with such precision when you are going to need those runes to survive. I never had situation where I can't get out on top.
I guess to each his own style.
My spec are viable, I'm not saying it is only and single spec or how one "must" play. That's what I like about DKs, there are lots of ways how to play.

[taralej]

There are a lot of ways but only one best. Yes, 3x SS > 2x SS + GF + BS. Just look at how much your ghoul autos, then give it 25% haste and do the math, adding one BS and comparing it to SS. SS wins.

You refresh your diseases with Pest for just one GCD instead of two, OK. But that's not as good as PS + IT in 2 GCDs. It's just not.

I am talking about simple math and optimal DPS, you're talking about "self-utility" and "diversity" - things that don't exist in PvE in a well organized and skilled group. You just don't need these and they'll only lower your DPS.

[angrylol]

I can do my 6/18%, have fun, carry someone, enjoy game, lie back and relax after work, just chat and laugh while I'm doing my part.. socialize
Meanwhile some optimized and maximized guy with sweaty palms chants IT>PS>SS>... in his head... that's just not for me.
Its a game, not rocket science.

[BlackFury]

Do you have numbers - average damage of BS and SS - in a raidsituation?

Reaping is only a good talent choice if 2xBS < 1xSS, which wasn't the case in BiS-gear last time I checked.

That's not the point. SS will always do more damage compared to 2xBS.
Fully buffed in ICC,a BS does 7-10k crits, with the rare 12k occurence, 3-4k hits. A SS can range between 9-12k Hits (together with the shadow part), and can crit up to 30k (rare, but happens). Average crits are around 22k.

As I said, It's not only about the SS>2xBS. To get Reaping, you have to drop Dirge and Unholy Blight. You also have to factor these in when doing the calculations.
I'm too lazy to post the math, but Dirge+UB+2xBS is always better than 1 SS.

[Xellic]

Is UH DK viable or should I just go DW frost?

[angrylol]

You can do your part with unholy on every encounter(my personal experience shows UH can be somewhat better). Differs "ease" of play, unholy require micro-manage pet, manage more cooldowns(more attention to runes), good encounter knowledge so you can burst with gargoyle and such. While frost you can pretty much faceroll.

[Huskymudkipz]

im at 5k gs and using the fos hc trinket : needled encrusted scorpion. now since im not highly geared yet should i go unholy with a blood or frost subspec ? :) (using t9 4set )

[BlackFury]

Apologies for reviving this thread, but i'll post some food for thought.

I have gotten my hands on a full t9 heroic set (4 vanq marks drop in togc, thanks RNGesus) and have been extensively testing t10hc vs t9 hc for the past 3-4 weeks. Turns out, this guy was right, T9 pulls ahead of t10. And i'm almost at bis gear, missing hc Penumbra (currently have normal version), so the stat difference at full bis will be negligible.

The results so far show that on the dummy, T9hc pulls ahead by about 1k dps @2m damage done compared to t10hc, (tested on IF dummy, doesnt turn around when hit+ can't hit other dummies nearby) and in raid situations, it varies wildly.
On dbs, i've noticed a 2-2.5k dps improvement, while the other stationary fights it's hovering at about 2k as well. In rs, the damage from aoe on the adds is just ridiculous.

This means that arp loses value. I've swapped dbw for DV hc, and planning to swap STS for WFS when it drops for further testing.

Why you might ask? I mainly attribute the difference to these 2 bugs:
https://www.warmane.com/bugtracker/report/316
https://www.warmane.com/bugtracker/report/291
which are both confirmed on the bugtracker.

The main focus on T10 is scourge strike scaling (lots of arp, scourge strike bonus), and due to these bugs, scourge strike doesnt really scale as it's intended. Thus the huge dps loss compared to t9hc. The stat difference between t9 and t10 can be neglected, as 2pt9 has a 100% uptime, which compensates for the str loss.

Using the 0/17/54 (no reaping) builld, with IT, Ghoul and Dark Death glyphs.

Test it out and post your results, i'm curious.