WotLK [Guide] PVE Assassination rogue

[DarkenedHue]

Sure bud, don't worry, any questions i'm free to answer in game

http://i.imgur.com/Kc0PioE.jpg

Usually most of these comparisons are done with the level 83 boss dummy, not the level 60 one :p

[fiirzen]

As a reminder, and ty for Fluffy, that damage test was on the 60 dummies, i did 6.2-6.4 on HC dummies, still trying other rotations to improve

[fiirzen]

Usually most of these comparisons are done with the level 83 boss dummy, not the level 60 one :p

Yeah i just updated, don't worry :P ty

[Fluffybully]

As a reminder, and ty for Fluffy, that damage test was on the 60 dummies, i did 6.2-6.4 on HC dummies, still trying other rotations to improve

Screenshots or it didn't happen, or log in and lemme see it for my self. But u already denied 1 invite :').

[fiirzen]

Screenshots or it didn't happen, or log in and lemme see it for my self. But u already denied 1 invite :').

Just did some tests with fluffy, getting 6.1k, got to change some stuff yet, it was nice to test it w u bud

[Fluffybully]

^Now that's legit. 5.8-6.1k dps averaging, as a 6.2k assa rogue with his set.

[jespe]

http://forum.warmane.com/showthread.php?t=342810

What do you guys think?

[Fluffybully]

I'll explain it here

Firstly Envenom.

A combat rogue with 2.6 MH weapon and 4/5 Improved Poisons has a constant chance of 52% to apply Instant Poison IX and 46% on OH. Which gives an average of 49% chance to apply the Instant Poison.

Now assa rogue with 1.8 MH dagger and 5/5 Improved Poisons has a constant chance of 38,5% to apply Instant Poison IX and 50% on OH. That's an average of 44,25% to apply Instant Poison. Slower dagger higher PPM with Instant poison.

Moving onto Envenom buff. Our 1.8 dagger with 5/5 Improved Poisons nao has a chance of 67,3% to apply Instant Poison and 65% on OH, as long as ENVENOM BUFF IS ACTIVE.

^Envenom buff up-time is your problem people. And the problem is cause you're going 4-5 CP Envenoms. Wasting a lot of time waiting for energy to get another Mutilate in while Envenom is down. The best is 3-4CP Envenoms.

I for example on my rogue in a 25 man raid with more or less all the buffs I need, I've got Envenom up-time of 90%(+-5%). Most of the rogues I've seen got around 40-50%. See the problem?

First let's take the 90% up-time into account.
At 90% up-time I'll have an average chance of 64.5% to apply Instant Poison from my 1.8 MH dagger and 63% from OH.

Now we go for the usual 40% that I see.
At 40% up-time that rogue'll have an average chance of 50% to apply Instant poison from a 1.8 MH dagger and 56% from OH.
^idk if dis math is correct, in case it's not tell me right numbers and im correct it.

So as you can see 50% instant poison chance vs 64,5% makes a big difference in the amount of instant poisons. Number obviously vary on RNG. Can be less can be more.


Secondly gear setup.

Relating to above. Having low crit chance will make u yield low energy gain. After all each crit is +2 energy. Aka it results in low envenom up-time once again.
Then we have haste. More hits = more crits = more energy = more instant poison = more Envenom up time again.

Lastly
I've tested all of the PvE assa talents. And they all work. Envenom buff seems to work fine too. And regarding Assa dps as in whole. In patch 3.3.2 Hunger for Blood got reduced from 15 to 5%. So a 10% DPS nerf.

And before some1 says that I am bull****ting with the 90% up-time part. Here's the prof:

[jespe]

Appreciate your post! To summ it up, with 40% uptime of envenom with assa is more or less the same ammount of instant poisons like combat rogue has with slow dagger?

What comes to stats, from what you say gemmin haste would overcome Others. Is that the thing or gemming AP is just to boost all damage and thus a great choise?
Again thanks for sharing your expertise !

[Fluffybully]

Appreciate your post! To summ it up, with 40% uptime of envenom with assa is more or less the same ammount of instant poisons like combat rogue has with slow dagger?

Combat rogue with slow fist/axe/sword you mean? Then yeah.

What comes to stats, from what you say gemmin haste would overcome Others. Is that the thing or gemming AP is just to boost all damage and thus a great choise?
Again thanks for sharing your expertise !

I guess around 20-25% haste from gear is ok. So in gemming haste till 20-25% then AP/Hit depends on wut ya need.

[fiirzen]

I'll explain it here

Firstly Envenom.

A combat rogue with 2.6 MH weapon and 4/5 Improved Poisons has a constant chance of 52% to apply Instant Poison IX and 46% on OH. Which gives an average of 49% chance to apply the Instant Poison.

Now assa rogue with 1.8 MH dagger and 5/5 Improved Poisons has a constant chance of 38,5% to apply Instant Poison IX and 50% on OH. That's an average of 44,25% to apply Instant Poison. Slower dagger higher PPM with Instant poison.

Moving onto Envenom buff. Our 1.8 dagger with 5/5 Improved Poisons nao has a chance of 67,3% to apply Instant Poison and 65% on OH, as long as ENVENOM BUFF IS ACTIVE.

^Envenom buff up-time is your problem people. And the problem is cause you're going 4-5 CP Envenoms. Wasting a lot of time waiting for energy to get another Mutilate in while Envenom is down. The best is 3-4CP Envenoms.

I for example on my rogue in a 25 man raid with more or less all the buffs I need, I've got Envenom up-time of 90%(+-5%). Most of the rogues I've seen got around 40-50%. See the problem?

First let's take the 90% up-time into account.
At 90% up-time I'll have an average chance of 64.5% to apply Instant Poison from my 1.8 MH dagger and 63% from OH.

Now we go for the usual 40% that I see.
At 40% up-time that rogue'll have an average chance of 50% to apply Instant poison from a 1.8 MH dagger and 56% from OH.
^idk if dis math is correct, in case it's not tell me right numbers and im correct it.

So as you can see 50% instant poison chance vs 64,5% makes a big difference in the amount of instant poisons. Number obviously vary on RNG. Can be less can be more.


Secondly gear setup.

Relating to above. Having low crit chance will make u yield low energy gain. After all each crit is +2 energy. Aka it results in low envenom up-time once again.
Then we have haste. More hits = more crits = more energy = more instant poison = more Envenom up time again.

Lastly
I've tested all of the PvE assa talents. And they all work. Envenom buff seems to work fine too. And regarding Assa dps as in whole. In patch 3.3.2 Hunger for Blood got reduced from 15 to 5%. So a 10% DPS nerf.

And before some1 says that I am bull****ting with the 90% up-time part. Here's the prof:

First, this is actually a good post, the envenom theory and testing is quite good and makes sense, but, testing in a 25 m raid it's different than a dummy, i just tested and my dps dropped by 200.
Another good point you've made is the haste stuff, it makes sense? Of course, OBVIOUSLY, i play assassination rogue for a long time, i'm currently 6254 gs main assassination spec with full attack power reds and stark yellows, now you can actually ask yourselves, he just said, and if i start to think, he's obviously right, the more speed i have, the more critical i'll get (i myself have 52% chance) and the more critical i get, the more Focused Attacks talent will proc, which means more energy, which means more envenom, which more more buff and so on. I too did the haste game on yellows and stark on reds, didn't worked out aswell, so the theory is correct, even if you change your spec, but not actually have a main set for it, it's impossible to prove that the poisons aren't broken. I say again, if you go on a 25m raid, even a 10m, it's super easy to mainting your energy due to buffs and even if you know how to clipping. I actually think that there might be a problem with the poisons.

[Fluffybully]

The 3+CP envenom part works for sure. Going 5CP is a waste of time where you dun have envenom up time .. been there, done that so yeah.

Goin past 25% haste via gear and gems seems worthless to me. As weapon speed formula is like dis:

Wep speed= Raw wep speed/(1+%Haste1/100) (1+%Haste2/100) (1+%Haste3/100) etc..
Wep speed = 1.8/(1+25/100)(1+10/100)(1+20/100)(1+40/100) goin like this gear --> talents --> Icy Talons --> SnD

So after 25% haste via gear the AP starts to get better. Obviously u also need to have gud ammount of hit rating as well around ~350 is cool. More is ofc better. But I'd get that with the 40 hit food.

I also forgot to add that ARP is still good. As ~30%+ dmg still is physical.

And for the poisons. The time I was testing idk, if i was hallucinating but for like a hour my 3/3 Vile poisons did less damage on assa spec than 1/3 on combat spec. After that they worked fine xd..

[fiirzen]

The 3+CP envenom part works for sure. Going 5CP is a waste of time where you dun have envenom up time .. been there, done that so yeah.

Goin past 25% haste via gear and gems seems worthless to me. As weapon speed formula is like dis:

Wep speed= Raw wep speed/(1+%Haste1/100) (1+%Haste2/100) (1+%Haste3/100) etc..
Wep speed = 1.8/(1+25/100)(1+10/100)(1+20/100)(1+40/100) goin like this gear --> talents --> Icy Talons --> SnD

So after 25% haste via gear the AP starts to get better. Obviously u also need to have gud ammount of hit rating as well around ~350 is cool. More is ofc better. But I'd get that with the 40 hit food.

I also forgot to add that ARP is still good. As ~30%+ dmg still is physical.

And for the poisons. The time I was testing idk, if i was hallucinating but for like an hour my 3/3 Vile poisons did less damage on assa spec than 1/3 on combat spec. After that they worked fine xd..

I agree, the 3-4 cp is a good call, and i actually reinforce my point, i got 417 hit rating, and i can really tell, i am not doing the damage i was supposed to. So then i can put some questions, is it the poison not bugged? it might be not but i actually think it is and also the damage it's not as it should be as long as attack power goes, since i have unbuffed. But yeah, it's a good topic and i think we all have to work towards the answer since a lot of people are talking about this and me and others that MAIN or want to be main assassination are worried about this.

[Fluffybully]

Poison AP scaling is fine. I feel like the Vile Poison talent gets broken randomly somehow, as it reduces poison dmg instead of increasing it. During that hour when the damn poison was doing less damage than on combat spec(same gear). I went slowly trough talent by talent to check which one might be breaking Vile Poisons and found nothing. So yeah it's suuuuper random tho. Happend to me on a Halion fight and 1 hour outa 4-5 when I was checking all assa talents and abilities.

But don't forget "patch 3.3.2" is when Hunger for Blood got nerfed by 10%.

Tl;dr Vile Poison on normal PvE Assassination spec might actually occasionally reduce poison damage by 7/14/20% instead of increasing it xD.

[fiirzen]

Poison AP scaling is fine. I feel like the Vile Poison talent gets broken randomly somehow, as it reduces poison dmg instead of increasing it. During that hour when the damn poison was doing less damage than on combat spec(same gear). I went slowly trough talent by talent to check which one might be breaking Vile Poisons and found nothing. So yeah it's suuuuper random tho. Happend to me on a Halion fight and 1 hour outa 4-5 when I was checking all assa talents and abilities.

But don't forget "patch 3.3.2" is when Hunger for Blood got nerfed by 10%.

Tl;dr Vile Poison on normal PvE Assassination spec might actually occasionally reduce poison damage by 7/14/20% instead of increasing it xD.

That's a very good point and i agree, it is actually HIPER difficult to exactly show where is that problem, but the reduce damage theory is not a bad idea, i think we got to show what we got so far so we can get some feedback