Actually the top 3 damage spells for assassination spec should be Melee from energy pooling then IP and then DP.
Going hit and haste is literally 0.5% increase to DPS until crit cap is increased, over all the DPS will be higher with crit than it will with haste, sure once you have your crit cap with full raid buffs and fully geared up you should go haste in a select few bits of gear to optimize the set up but never go full 20 haste in every slot, there is NO CAP to AP, AP is an overall damage increase, haste increases melee and IP ticks, that's all.
The cap has always been 22% but you also have 5% talents in combat for dual wield. You could still probably drop it down to 22% if you really wanted, the real reason you take more hit after you reach your cap is to increase the critical cap for RNGs sake. If you have a rogue I implore you go re-gem to AP - Crit/AP instead of 20 haste and go join a 25 man raid, use http://wow.filltheglass.org/crit_cap.php to calculate your cap and aim for it and you will see a huge difference in your DPS. It only costs a couple of thousand gold to gem things.
And for the record, 51/13/7 is used specifically for under geared rogues, the DPS is less than 51/20/0 even in those situations since Lightning Reflexes was buffed in 3.3, the only problem people experience with it is the energy downtime until you gain enough crit that you have a steady stream of replenishment from Focused Attacks.
Ref: http://et.worldofwarcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Hit
http://wow.filltheglass.org/crit_cap.php
-
Member
-
Wind of Northrend
From what i see, top 3 damage spells are:
1. Instant Poison
2. Melee
3. Mutilate (and Envenom share more or less same %)
https://imgur.com/a/EeufZ2L (this was taken some time during last month)
70.5% of your dmg as Assasin rogue is Instan Poison, Melee and Deadly Poison.
That is Melee only, and that benefits most from both Hit and Haste.
On top of that, getting 1% haste/hit is a lot easyer than getting 1% crit, which means that for less stats u get more in return if you go for Haste and Hit.
On top of that, as you can see in that pic, im missing 6% crit to be capped, as BIS, and from what i know you need A LOT of stats to get those 6% (81.8 agility = 1% crit / 45 crit rating for 1% crit, while for 1% hit/haste you need 33 rating). Also, even if u decided and got those missing 6%, u would gain 22x2 (44) energy from them which is not enough for 1 extra Mutilate, while losing a lot of Melee hits and possible poison hits duo to Hit/Haste decrease.
As for the Attack Power, it wont increase your overall DMG as much as both Hit and Haste will, cos again, 65% of overall DMG is Instant Poison and Melee, and to increase that dmg for the least amount of stats, you go for Hit and Haste.
I know how much Hit cap is, you said something different in the previous reply:
"1) the hit is used to aim for the auto swing hit cap (24%)" that made me ask the question initially.
Good luck going for 104.8 - 3 - 24 - 27 + X (hit rating u have) = Y (crit you need to cap white swings) as a Rogue, since Y will be somewhere arround 65-70% without losing other usefull stat.
And for the record, 10% more melee attacks wont ever provide as much as energy gained from Relentless Strikes, since it will both increase Mutilate and Envenom DMG which will increase the up time of Envenom buff which will increase your Instant Poison count.
On top of that, it will be a lot easyer to switch targets and do more DMG to other stuff with that extra energy, rather than just tunneling the boss 24/7 and doing DPS that any other class which could take your place as a melee could do better.
Im a bit lazy to respec couple of times and waste my time and gold, and on top of it all i think that you are too dense to understand the reasoning behind why 51/13/7 is a lot better than 51/20/0.
-
Member
https://i.imgur.com/yfGnz0d.jpg
Taken an hour ago.
This was in an ICC 25 pug with each raid buff putting me at crit cap almost exactly.
I'm 2 very important items off BiS for this rogue as you are free to go check.
(http://armory.warmane.com/character/...ecrown/summary)
As for the critcap, you are aware leader of the pack also gives you a significant buff to your melee crit damage, giving you a total of 5%, I don't know about you but in my gear I'm sitting just below it without a druid so a druid actually pushes me over the crit cap by a slight margin ((Which is when i'm supposed to gem AP/Haste))
Mutilate is not meant to be your damage increase or matter that much, it's a CP generator, as you said yourself poisons are the number 1 & 2 damage between both combat and Mutilate, why would a generator have any place in the top 3 unless you're literally spamming envenom the moment you get the energy to and wasting the pool between the buff to increase IP damage.
Please do try and show me how 51/13/7 (Traditionally a rupture build) is much better than a build specifically aimed toward single target end game DPS.
For gearing up when you don't have the crit to sustain your energy, yes, you would go 51/13/7. I'll gladly race you on a rogue in a raid providing it's a single target DPS race, just invite me any time and we can arrange it and you can see the differences if you wanna go 51/13/7.
Spreading misinformation on these forums and with guides that are outdated and wrong over all hurts the rogue community on this realm drastically, people become misinformed and then others see it as "oh rogues don't do much damage as mutilate" and refuse to take anyone not combat which over all hurts everyone.
ONTOP of that (you like that sentence a lot) you can scream until the cows come home that reinventing the wheel is a better option than what has been proven factually and evidently to be the case with formulas and actual theory crafting from rogues and players much better than you and I to be the case in terms of specs, weights and everything else.
The issue with haste is everyone assumes because the spreadsheets, Rawr, iDPS and Simcraft with everything enabled and bis gear says haste that you must ALWAYS use haste, that is not the case in the slightest because Rawr itself (make the claim that rawr has no holding on a private server, please, i wanna see another excuse for people being wrong) makes critical a priority to push the cap as well as increase the cap with hit, while both me and you are assuming in best in slot gear certain gems beat out others, i'm talking in general to go for crit/ap over ap/haste or 20 haste for everything outside of literally best in slot gear.
But you're probably too 'dense' to grasp the reasoning behind it or take into consideration evidence in front of you because your pride would be too hurt by it.
So again, I invite you to log at any point and prove me wrong in a 25 man raid with the same buffs, same stats and everything which spec, gem or anything else is better.
"The preliminary findings:
- I have tried many types of gemming for 51/13/7 and 51/18/2 and found 51/18/2 to be firmly ahead
- In terms of caps: reaching expertise cap is key, also in this gear you are below crit cap and above poison cap, regardless of gemming
- AP gemming is ahead of agility gemming even when you are not running into crit cap problems (significant results if you regem all your gear)
- Berserking is slightly ahead of Mongoose, but the results are not statistically significant (Mongoose will become more of a problem later due to crit capping)
- Crit and hit are worse than haste (can't tell you exactly by how much till EP values are calculated properly). Obviously if your gear differs and you are having poison cap or crit cap problems, hit rating will gain a lot of value.
- AP is better than haste, however there is no significant difference between Shard of the Crystal Heart and Mark of Supremacy. That is probably in part due to the fact that I am timing the trinket proc with Heroism, and haste rating scales better than AP with heroism.
- Engineering still comes out ahead if everything is used on cooldown and not counting the intangible effect of nitro boots. However, this is also one of the things that may change the more you move into ICC gear territory because of the crit cap. For now I am seeing about 50 dps gain compared to other alternatives.
- Quick comparison to poison-based combat shows it is about 2k below in dps, but I did not try to optimize it by trying haste and hit gemming."
Ref:https://web.archive.org/web/20100826...4/#post1483947
"I did EP calculations for new gear before and haste actually came up at 2.28 while AP was 1.1 but that was dps per point, not EP, which puts haste a hair ahead of AP. So that's why that was my guess that you somehow confused the EP values and the dps/point since the order of the two units is so similar"
Ref: https://web.archive.org/web/20101110...4/#post1490260
(On BiS lists/gemming prio *NOTE* The No energy Pooling pure Envenom and Mutilate spamming note beside it) https://web.archive.org/web/20101110...5/#post1506878
Feel free to pick it apart to find a reasoning behind why they test these things.
(Just a little stinger too if people want to ask some questions that are implied about haste or black magic or crit)
FAQ for Both specs from EJ.
https://web.archive.org/web/20101109...ated_2_3_10_a/Edited: November 6, 2018 Reason: Provided Links for you to read if you don't believe it.
-
Wind of Northrend
http://armory.warmane.com/character/...ecrown/summary
This is the BiS list for Assassination rogue, ESPECIALLY if you go for Lightning Reflexes.
So from what i can see, you are missing more than just 2 items from the BiS list, but i guess im wrong here aswell.
As for the rest of your comments, duo to not enough time now, i will provide u with both info and screenshots on how much wrong you are, especially when it comes to gemming AP and Crit over Haste and Hit.
As for me being dense so my pride is not hurt, i got into a lot of arguments after which i said: "I am wrong, you are right, thank you for helping me improve as a player", and i was never sorry for that.
At the moment you are just spreading awesome information about gemming Crit and Attack Power on Assassination rogue, 2 stats that will give u significaly less stats than same amount of Hit and Haste.
Anyway, cya soon.
P.S. with this gear and 2088 agility, fully raid buffed i reach 66.68% crit, so raid buffs will give you arround 10% in crit increase, i know how the game works.
Edit: Lets go in order...
As i said, u will get arround 10.5% crit chance with all raid buffs if u have 2100 agility without any buffs.
That will still leave u at 2-5% crit missing from the soft crit cap depending on talents and gear you have.
if you do 500 successful auto attacks, 2% will be 10 auto attacks, which will be a total of 20 extra energy which is nothing when it comes to 2-3minutes that you actually dpsed the target for.
On top of that, there is no way that you will be sure that those 2% will be enough to never normal hit a melee, cos when it comes to that on Warmane its never black and white. Perfect example is Fury Warrior, even tho i have a lot more crit than the actual soft cap, i always find myself normal hitting on encounters like LK, Halion, Sindragosa...
But lets say that the value of Hit, Haste and Crit is exactly the same, aka they will give u same amount of DPS (which is not the case cos Hit and Haste give u more).
You need a bit less than 33 Hit or Haste rating to get 1%, and you need arround 45 Crit rating to get 1%.
So, if you look at it like that, you need more rating to get 1% crit than you need to get 1% hit or haste, meaning, u wasted extra stat for nothing. Not to mention that at BiS the % of normal attacks is so small, its actually not even worth looking at it.
Haste is mainly good cos with it, and some low hit, you will actually get more energy from focused attacks cos you will do more auto attacks that will be crit anyway.
When it comes to Mutilate, it can look like a CP generator but good luck swapping targets with no energy.
The main reason Relentless Strikes is taken is mainly to try and remove RNG as a factor, meaning more safe energy, no surpises. And to be honest, u cant say 13% dmg is nothing.
The one trying to invent a wheel with crit gemming and on a 8year old expansion is actually you.
Spreading missinformation that sims dont work cos its a private server is also a bad thing to do...
Sure, its not 1000% accurate, but they will show u some good info u can test latter ingame, and this comes from someone that hates sims. Even tho they are not always true, they have their uses.
As for the Attack Power gemming, the main reason TaiaJ is better than Herkumi is that AP has almost no impact on overall DPS when compared to extra Auto Attacks.
Even tho Herkumi has **** ton of Haste and extra attack power, the 85 hit rating is superior duo to the fact that on top of it, u get extra Hits from mote of anger which can proc both Poisons on the target you are DPSing, meaning, couple of extra poison hits will make up for the 300 attack power lost, which again proves that both Haste and Hit that will give you more auto attacks are better than Crit.
The main thing we can aggre is that 51/18/2 spec has more potential than 51/13/7 spec, meaning that if u get super lucky with 51/18/2 you will do more DPS than the other spec.
However, if you dont get lucky, and on top of that you have to switch a lot of targets, u get stomped.
The main reason people dont want Assassination rogue in the raid, part from not bringing any relevant buff/debuff to the raid table, and doing weak dps compared to 1 extra Fury Warrior for example, is duo to fact that people tend to go SINGLE TARGET DPS SPEC and never do anything else but tunnel 1 target.
Perfect example is Lich King. Try going 51/18/2 spec there and switch btwn LK, Valks, Ragins. If u ever bothered to try both spec and did LK while using 51/13/7 u would know that its a lot, like A LOT better spec for that kind of fight.
I actually never had any problem when it comes to getting in raids while being Assassination, aslong as there is another Combat Rogue to provide Savage Combat, going Assassination might be better duo to better constant dps, higher uptime on tricks, and better target swap if specced right.
And one last note, its kinda funny that you link old elitist jerk threads to back your claims, while saying old retail sims are not working properly for Warmane cos its a private server.
Bottom line:
Attack Power and Crit will NEVER be better than Haste and Hit.
Both specs have their places on wotlk boss fights, but 51/13/7 works better for overall RNGless dps and target swaping while doing the same amount of DPS when it comes to single target.
Oh yea, the comment from robycucu just reminded me...
If you actually want to go for 51/18/2, going for 4/5 T10 is actually better.
Reasons being higher uptime on Envenom duo to 4/5 procs and Armor Penetration has greater value there since you essencially increase Melee DMG which is purely physical.
Before you go and claim that Armor Penetration is useless on Assassination Rogue, there is a GOOD reason why it has a huge role in Ret paladin DPS, Enha shaman DPS, Assassination rogue DPS, and any other melee dps that has arround 30-50% of overall DMG as Physical.Edited: November 6, 2018
-
Member
so this is my assa setup http://armory.warmane.com/character/...ecrown/summary i ll leave assa gear on for a while.
this is a pic at lady25 pug run https://imgur.com/TTISVmc which i posted before somewhere.
i m using 51/13/7 with 4set and including rup+evi in my rotation whenever possible which can be seen in this SS.
so we can t compare dps accurately with these screenshots BUT this should prove the spec is more than capable.
cheers.
-
Member
First off at what point did I say hit wasn't a useful talent? or at all? I specifically said you use hit and experience gems to increase your crit cap when you are close to it. You obviously aren't understanding me but that's fine, I'll have to just spell it out again.
Lets go through and dismantle this, I have never said that Sims are wrong on Warmane, I'm an advocate for them, any time anyone brings up sims on here you have the *****s screaming that they're inaccurate or don't work when they have no idea how to sim to begin with and just stick BiS gear in every slot and gem that way so please reread what I said before you make baseless assumptions about what I said.
Not only did I not say that I was BiS, I said I'm a few items off BiS, infact I agree that token is horrible entirely but in every single way WFS normal and heroic sims out much better and plays better because hey guess what, it's got the crit on it to reach the cap.
The difference in EP value between Crit and Haste is .25, you really think either matters but giving a cap of something where its no long beneficial to use it (Example: Hit or expertise) would you not cap it before dumping straight into a limitless stat that you don't have any foreseeable cap to.
Target swapping on mutilate is the ****ing easiest thing to do I have no idea why people make this claim, when you know a swaps coming you envenom beforehand and that way you have the maximum number of procs for DP and IP to reapply on another ****ing target, after you envenom you're supposed to pool your energy so I don't know how you can have any issues what so ever with that unless you're wasting energy and time sitting there getting it.
Tiny abom is not worth mentioning at all on the BiS list because even by your "BiS" rogues standards you'd need to have well over 200 cycles of it to be anywhere good, it literally made up 1.5% of your total DPS, in fact it proc'd what, 33 times doing a grand total of 29K? that's not worth anything in the PPM amount for any other trinket comparatively.
The reason I link the EJ *(Hey guess what, at no point have I said that EJ was a bad source or shouldn't be used on Warmane, you're reading that yourself or you don't understand English that well and are struggling to see the point)* if you take EJ as bible and go research what each EP value is you'll see while 4 part t10 is "Middling" for mutilate the EP value of 2p vs 4p is well above it.
Specifically:
T10 2/5 163.2 234.6
T10 4/5 40.5 74.6
You can double check those numbers in all the links I've provided but you barely skim them I imagine which is why you didn't read a single thing I said or just saw the words you wanted.
As I've said I'll gladly go head to head with you specifically to prove my point, next time you raid please do send me a message or post your meters with your bis gear, I'd love to beat it out on the meters again and watch you scream that you're right and I'm wrong.
-
Wind of Northrend
Sure, you can always move Horde and do couple of VoA 25m raids with me and see how it goes, i dont mind, but i think you will save the "im not bis yet" excuse for that.
The first time i tryed Assassination i went for 51/18/2 spec. Got rekt by a Rogue that used 51/13/7 in VoA 25m, i dont mind being the guy that will open your eyes.
You sure use a lot of numbers for someone who said that Hit cap is 24% (since we are trying to use some kind of cheap shots).
Im really not into another great wall of text to be honest, just so you can write it back, so il try to keep it short.
Saying that you should gem AP+Crit over pure Haste or pure Hit in yellow sockets is retordation from my pov, and nothing you say will make me change my mind.
The stat that will increase both Melee and Instant Poison dmg the most is Haste or Hit, those two do 60-65% of your overall DMG done, its how game works, end of discussion.
Milking out last couple of % when it comes to crit is simply a waste of stat.
As for TaiaJ and its puny 33 procs, lets say 16 of them proced IP, thats 30k dmg.
Thing that is bugging me atm: if u are close to the crit cap, which is apparently so important, why would u get more Hit to increase it, so you have to get more Crit, when you can just get more Haste? Do you know how Crit Hit Haste works together?
P.S. If you want to measure dik on a short fight, u want to use DBW.
-
Member
Because mis remembering is a thing believe it or not to answer that question.
Why wouldn't I increase my crit cap, each crit cap is different for every rogue, it's based around your hit + expertise rating, if I'm over the crit cap by 5% why would I let that 5% be a dead wasted stat rather than maximize it to increase DPS due to getting things like WFS as an upgrade over token would put me over my cap so I'd need to either increase my cap by increasing my hit or my expertise to add to the current value goal.
I didn't say YOU should re gem all your ****, I'm talking people NOT in a BiS situation which was the whole point of my argument, if I have to go get a sim and a gear set of full t9 with random pieces and do a side by side difference of haste gemming vs crit ap gemming for both 51/13/7 I would gladly do it if someone would realize on this god forsaken realm that stat weights do not apply to absolutely everyone like an umbrella.
Again, I never implied I was BiS, but you're still caught up that I'm trying to use it as an excuse, I know I'd be pulling more DPS with BiS than I would normally.
The difference (AT END GAME BIS GEAR) between haste and crit is literally .25 of a EP value, I cannot keep saying this enough for you to understand, I am not talking END GAME BIS GEAR I'm talking a general player and have been FROM THE START.
Also I wouldn't consider DBS 25N a "Short fight" in a pug where the average DPS is below 8K.
Also if you're gonna use the Robycucu screenshot as evidence that X Y Z is better, you should also consider the fact he was stupid enough to include the DBM timer for the fight in the screenshot on a multi mob fight, anyone can link a burst window screenshot at 1 minute 49 seconds with heroism/blood lust too.
That's the thing you're not grasping though that 51/13/7 is used for lower geared builds specifically to benefit from 2p t8 for the energy tick from t7/t8 2part/4part to keep the energy flow constant because of the lack of crit there and the lack of haste within the gear set and within the over all gear.
With 51/18/2 you pretty much do not have that issue because you can reach the crit cap for your gear much easier thus giving you the energy from focused attacks that means you don't have to use it.
TaJ is used exclusively for the hit stat on it in it's AEP value to boost up the DW hardcap hit, that's why it ranks so high in the EP value but in practice on warmane you'll notice the proc rate is so low that it's simply not worth taking over say WFS heroic or WFS normal, I can give you the list of BiS trinkets for your gear because (Guess what) each character has a DIFFERENT set of values that increase it's DPS, infact I'll post that here too, you're more than welcome to take a look at it if you don't trust me to be genuine, heres the issue with gemming according to rawr (This is with every buff enabled, all your gear, gems and enchants too.)
Gems: https://i.imgur.com/GJOtXVr.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/XYNHGyZ.jpg
Trinks + Talents https://imgur.com/a/WGORmhe (Ref: Trinkets and spec, I'll give you that on paper your spec beats out 51/18/2 by a good 200 dps but that can be completely negated entirely by RNG)
Here's a link to the XML file for rawr as well as version of Rawr with your build.
https://regression-guild.com/Shadowstep.zip
https://regression-guild.com/Rawr.zip
You can download and test them yourself on paper but we'll see the difference between the re gemming and gemming at a "Bis" level. I've been talking about at a lower level gear this entire time where as you've been talking about your own.
Balls in your court if you're willing to compromise on data and evidence rather than random bull**** numbers you can pull from your brain or call into question Rawr and it's formula like many have before when faced with the burden of proof.Edited: November 7, 2018 Reason: Adding in a second non dragons eye image
-
Wind of Northrend
First of all, when u go in an argument, try not to get mad.
My point is, why would you want to go more than 12 spell hit (315 hit rating, 9.6% melee hit)?
With that much hit, u cap poisons and u need 65.4% crit chance fully raid buffed to never hit a melee, aka for all melee hits to be crit?
Why not, once u reach that point, dump gems into Haste?
More haste more melee crits more energy more hits more poisons procs more envenoms more poison procs?
Where AP makes ur attacks just hit harder, really?
I always talked about end game and bis Assassination rogue.
As for your rogue, u wer the one to bring up that you are missing 2 major items from bis list, from my pov more items, and u wer the one to offer a dps race, from my pov u would simply use an excuse that u are not bis once u lost, so i dont see a point in doing that (btw, you are not at the point of low gear where you should be gemming AP+crit as u said urself, u sir are close to bis).
DPS for Assissination rogue is mainly RNG. Perfect example for rng... I did couple of 5min dummy tests yesterday, and sometimes i had more IP procs with lower Envenom uptime (51/18/2), i had more energy gain from Rele Strikes with 2/5 rather than 5/5 (51/13/7) and so on... And you cant do anything about it. If Ruthlessness doesnt proc, you are screwed, if Muti doesnt crit on top of that, rip, so many things that can set you back, and most of them you remove with 51/13/7 which was my point why this spec is better overall, regardless of gear score, and why 51/18/2 had more potential if you are lucky (a card i never play).
The only thing you can affect is amount of Melee hits. After that it all goes to RNG. Hence Haste/Hit/TaiaJ.
Also, i dont see a point in wasting extra gold on builds that you will replace next week. Im not saying that in gearing process u should care what u gem or enchant or wear, you should, im saying that trying to squize last 5% out of dps gain when you are at 5k gs, while when next week you will get an item that will alone increase dps by that much is a waste of both time and gold if you ask me. On top of that, i doubt that at lower gear level there is such a thing as HUGE difference when it comes to gemming AP+crit over Haste or Hit. I think that gemming all slots with 10agil10haste/hit wont make much of a dif with any other gemming at that point (and ametrines are easyest to farm/buy).
My point for DBW was that its best trinket option on fights that last arround 135sec. AGAIN, when bis.
As for reasoning behind Tier sets and trinkets, i have no comments...
First time i posted or did anything about Assassination rogue, i spent more than a week of constant DPSing on both dummy and raids.
Hell, i will most likely tunnel the dummy in next couple of days to gather the info again to see if anything changed (since i have no time to raid, exept ocasional voa).
Im not trying to prove anything here exept for what is best for Assassination spec. Thats the practice on Warmane i have and that made me use TaiaJ over any other trinket option.
Idc about dps whoring, or if im right or wrong, hell i wish i was wrong so i can change and improve, all i have is a lot of ingame expirience and i know where to look at to get the most out of stats, and i can say that i sometimes dont even understand the word you are saying, for example:
"Trinks + Talents https://imgur.com/a/WGORmhe (Ref: Trinkets and spec, I'll give you that on paper your spec beats out 51/18/2 by a good 200 dps but that can be completely negated entirely by RNG)"
Does this mean the gear and spec im using on Shadowstep atm is better than 51/18/2, but if rng is just right what you are saying can be better? :D
P.S. Idk much about ur rogue and gear u have part from the one on armory, but i sure do hope you dont have any other belt, trown, neck, cos getting so much hit and saying you should gem crit to reach soft cap is just bad (ignore this comment if u dont have any alternative items to replace those with).
-
Member
I'm not mad, nor have I been at all this entire time, I am stating facts, hard cold facts that have been set in stone by data that has been calculated and refined by players better than both of us over 8 years ago.
I'm not going to keep going back and fourth with the same argument that you're not grasping so I'm just going to leave it as you aren't listening or you're willingly ignoring it to keep baiting, either way this info isn't for you because you'll never consider it or test it out for yourself.
By having a 200 DPS gain in a spec shouldn't fool you into thinking that's a huge victory, I've given you all the resources you need to check whats wrong by yourself, even Rawr is outputting that your gemming is sub optimal, but at BiS gear the difference between crit and haste is .25 EP, this means it's completely negligible at BiS gear as I have been saying for a while now.
I have been saying from the start if you go get a full set of t9 gear, some welfare purples from an RDF and go do a 10 man raid to VoA/ToC/Onyxia or anything other than an ICC with your gems, regem it and go do a naxx/EoE/OS whatever in crit ap and ap gems, you'll see the difference dramatically at gear that isn't BiS. Sim it, prove it, do whatever if you makes you feel better.
DPS for any class is purely RNG, don't try and use that excuse but for the record on that dummies aren't fully raid buffed or debuffed so they aren't an accurate representation of damage output without doing well over a hundred cycles on them.
-
Wind of Northrend
So, 51/13/7 does 200 more DPS, and Haste is better than Crit by .25, but somehow im ignoring the facts? :D
Ok, thanks for the talk...
And no, RNG doesnt affect other classes like it does Assassination rogue. Ruthlessness and Relentless Strikes are perfect example for that.
Edit1: on a Dummy u mainly look for a way to max out melee dmg which is possible and accurate.
Edit2: from a reliable source i found out that Rawr is bad for Assassination rogue sims.Edited: November 7, 2018
-
Member
Do you have a source for your "Reliable" source for Rawr being wrong for one specific spec and class even though it's confirmed on EJ by all the other info involving rogues for 3.3.5?
Dummies aren't for raid testing unless you have a full 25 man raid hitting them the same way you would a raid boss, it's not right and will never be accurate for DPS testing.
-
Wind of Northrend
I dont know tbh, whenever i need something that has to do with Rogues, i go to him. Didnt let me down to this day.
He probably have more experience, knowledge and testing on both sims and in game than both of us...
Aslong as the % if the DMG on Abilities stays exactly the same, when it comes to Raids and Dummyes, those buffs/debuffs wont make a huge difference.
As for Rawr, i tryed to use it myself.
The DPS difference btwn 51/18/2 and 51/13/7 is quite noticable, and it goes in favor of what i was talking about.
Also, Attack Power and Crit, when it comes to gems, has prio over Haste and Hit ONLY before u introduce raid buffs.
Once u get all the raid buffs on your char, Haste takes over.
So, the point in this and another guide on the forums, when it comes to attack power and the "cap" they are talking about, aka dont gem it if u have more than 4k, is actually true, according to Rawr (its just probably higher than 4k, and will end up somewhere at 4.9 - 5k, but that is simple BiS gear without a single AP gem, couple of Agil + Haste ametrines).
Now, as for the gear choice, i gave a chance to the 4/5 build, and it was quite good. I think thats its mainly duo to armor pen increase and how that is always better on a dummy, but considering how high both Melee and Mutilate dmg gets, it might be just as good in raids aswell (altho i need to do couple of regeming, talent changes and reglyphing).
Couple of those T10 procs made u have a free Rupture every now and than, without losing anything (which ended up beeing an extra 1.5% - 30k dmg after 5min run, that was without both glyph and rupture talent).
So, i could say that build might be even better. Will see...
Oh, also, Rawr prios DBW over WFS, so i guess crit is kinda crap, once u get close to Soft Cap. Notice how i said CLOSE not once u reach the soft cap.
Edit: https://imgur.com/a/nXPQn4R
This was by far the best dummy attempt i had so far, with 4/5 and Rupture spec/glyph.
5min dummy run. I had bleed on the target whenever i had to refresh Hunger for Blood from my alt account.Edited: November 10, 2018
-
Member
That's because as I said before getting closer to the crit cap matters more than haste for melee swings, if you're running a 5 man or you don't have a druid/fury warrior/full raid buffs you are actually gimping yourself and opening up to a whole load of RNG on stuff, that's the point of my whole argument, not everyone is BiS and not everyone has a steady roster of 25 man that never changes comp wise so making the argument that everyone should go for haste/bis stats from 3K isn't going to see a DPS pushing the limits of its gear.
While I'm sure his credentials are fine and all that I don't trust a single persons opinion on something that I've been using well over 8 years now and been part of the community who developed it to begin with, the formula is sound, the coding can be a bit squiffy but the numbers are accurate for rogues and for mages (ironically the creator mained a mage from vanilla - MoP so he refined it perfect for it) the rogue module was developer by one of the most respected T.C's on EJ for rogues so I'll take my chances over some random person you know.
4/5 is middle ground for mutilate based on the fact you drop way too many stats going for it, what you can do in rawr is select all the gear/gems/talents/buffs you want, go to items and go to optimize and pull that thoroughness all the way up there and hit "Optimize" and wait and see what happens with swapping between 4/5 and 2/5.
as for the DBW/WFS, I can say it a thousand times and I'll say it a thousand more, You need to sim yourself, your stats are unique to each player with your gear, you need to sim yourself if you want to find what is an upgrade for you, blindly following a list and gemming what the list says is a really bad idea and causes more issues than it would actually opening up rawr, putting in your talents and gems and looking for upgrades to target.
DBW is only on that list because its proc is more than WFS on AP alone (Ironic isnt it that AP is valued higher by a simulation than haste) with a 105 second ICD vs a 45 sec ICD you do the math which is gonna be up longer and more over all.
-
Wind of Northrend
I dont know why would anyone make a stat balance for a 5man dungeon?
What would you do once you get in a 10 or 25m raid and have useless stat on you?
Also, once you get to a 245+ ilvl gear status, you should focus on Raids, not on 5m dungeons, since you overgear them already.
And, at best, if you are not BiS or close to BiS, you should gem Agil+Hit/Haste, not AP+Crit.
At that point, u encounter all kind of bosses and situations, you dont just afk on one target and dps it for hours like sims do.
Overall stat balance is better, and u gain that with Agil and Hit/Haste, not AP and Crit. If nothing else, if you dont go crit, u leave a huge space for RNG to increase your dps if u are lucky, and lets not talk about how much that doesnt make sence in the first place also.
Crit, as much as you call it RNG stat, it will always be 5 +/- % arround the % u have atm.
So, if you are 5% off crit soft cap, you could get lucky and get more glancing hits on the target and still never get a normal hit.
If you get the soft crit cap, and you get unlucky with glancing hits, you have a lot of Crit stat that is simply wasted.
I dont need a Sim to know how game works, i just need common sence.
4/5 gives u a lot more Combo Points. Lets you get even more energy back from Rele Strikes. Lets you use Rupture in your rotation, which is a hell of a DPS increase from what i found out in 10m raids so far, and on a dummy... It also helps you keep the uptime on Instant Poison, so, i dont know how 2 extra gems and 74 Haste over 106 Armor Penetration will help you better than more finishers.
As for Mutilate, on a Dummy, it crits for 5-7k, i dont think that is something which is bad tbh, its not something you should ignore cos its a "combo point generator" since it hits like a beast. So, Armor Penetration is always welcome.
When it comes to Rawr, I downloaded it, got in, i equiped gear, reggemed some stuff and saw some DPS numbers.
I checked all the raid buffs (mainly Kings, Horn, Mark, Auras, Food, Flask, not all, like Tricks on me, Hysteria, just overall most buffs u get in almost every raid), and i noticed how the prio on gems changes. So, at that point, i equiped my gear, my gemming, and i noticed that it did more DPS with buffs than without.
On top of that, once u get to a point where different gems get your dps from 14.6 to 14.7k i feel like at that point, you should make some choices on some situations you will find yourself in.
WFS is on a 4th to 5th place, behind HC DBW, normal DBW, Herkumi Token and maybe even DV and Comets Trail sometimes, so no, WFS, regardless of its high uptime, is not good.
I used to try and make DV good on couple of melee classes, mainly cos i hated DBWs huge downtime. Long story short, it doesnt work. DBW is mainly huge duo to Armor Penetration on it and huge proc that makes ur burst jump trough roofs. Also, when 40-50% of your DMG is Physical, Armor Penetration has a huge role in your DPS, weather you like it or not.
Crit as a stat as much as it seems great at the first sight, its not so good to get too much of it.
As i said, if you have 40% crit, you will always crit somewhere arround 35-45%.
WFS has 148 crit rating on it, why would u go for that instead of 167 Armor Penetration that DBW has. Its more passive stats in the first place, and lets not ignore the fact that there is no bad proc for Assassination rogue when it comes to DBW procs... Sure, agility is fine, but my god, AP and Haste are beasts.
Im not blindly following something, and im not saying you said something like that, but at this moment i feel like you are.
I was at the place where you are at the moment i guess, and i believed that the game is so 2 dimensional that if u get as much Crit and AP as possibly can, there is nothing else that will increase your dps. Long story short, again, i was wrong.
P.S. There is no option in sim, where u can add rupture in rotation like you can ingame, which is another downside of a sim.
4/5 T10 Rupture Assassination spec and itemisation seems superior to any other i ever tryed so far, but il need couple of weeks in VoA 25m to confirm it since i cant raid anything else...
Quote
