1. When I mentioned the 5 man it was entirely as an example of every day every run stats, not a specific encounter to use. People may pug, pugs may never have a fdk, thus you can't always count on 20% haste, pug 10 man run may not have a blood dk with hysteria, do you get what i'm getting at here? you can only apply the stats you know you're going to have.

    Armor pen has very little to absolutely minimal use for anything but autos, if I wanted to keep this going and take the bait for yet another reply I'd say something along the lines of regem to full arp and tell me that it matters.

    Lets get some final things in stone because I'm done replying to this thread and I wanna leave something for other people curious about the spec that will do their own homework before blindly following what others say:

    1) Sim your character, your stats are unique to you, find upgrades that are good for you, don't trust "BiS lists" or "BiS stats" because those stats or gear will not be exact each time and beneficial for you to get at that time, this does not mean those very stats do not become beneficial for you at a very later date, by all means use something like a Crit Cap calculator to see how close to it you can get before it becomes a problem same goes for every other stat value, 212 expertise is the goal to begin with to avoid being dodged, parried or glancing on your yellow (Mutilate, Envenom, Any combat point ability) after that, check each upgrade you get.

    2) Guides and specs like the ones listed here may be out of date or completely false information, always read when the original post was created and ask yourself do bugs from 2014 still exist 4 years later after a core swap and all sorts of other updates to the game? likely hood no, which means something may change. Always do your own research before you commit to something.

    3) Armor pen or ArP is not a fantastic stat, it is used for one thing and one thing only and that is your melee swing, do not waste time aiming for armor pen gear specifically if it is not a huge upgrade every other stat wise (Example: going from blue bracers to DBS 25 bracers.) DBW has a 105 second cooldown between forms, every other trinket in wotlk for rogues is a 45 second cooldown if it is a proc trinket.

    4) Energy pool between envenoms, get 4 combo points, use envenom and mutilate to 4 combo points again, get 4 right away? great, let your energy go back up and watch your envenom buff when it drops off, cast envenom again and repeat until the boss is dead and you win the big game, go state.

    5) 2 part t10 is more beneficial over 4 part t10 because if you're energy pooling like you should be above to maximise the envenom buff uptime you won't need another extra 4 or 5 combo points randomly since you already have a mutilate after you envenom lined up, it will leave you over capping energy and be a general waste of DPS or a global cooldown you could have used on anything else.

    6) Don't trust people who tell you random factoids without any references or proof of the claim in writing, data or numbers (This applies to life too) there's too much misinformation out there and being misinformed about something is the single worst thing you can be. (Some smart *** will quote me on this and try and use it but go back a page and see all the references)

    7) Use god damn Berserking, black magic is garbage, it is not worth it ever, mongoose is not worth it ever either, it's always going to be Beserking MH Beserking OH no matter what (Unless it's PVP), no it is not a DPS increase to have it in your bags and weapon swap it for the proc because re-equipping a weapon will trigger the internal cool down on Beserking meaning you've just lost out on 400 attack power (A small trinket).

    8) The difference between stats (if you read the last two pages) at END GAME BIS GEAR is minimal at best, by a margin of .25 of a value between crit and haste, up until that point you may gain more from haste, you may gain more from crit, it really depends on YOUR stats and gear, that's why in reason 1 I said SIM YOURSELF.

    9) This forum is a cesspool of toxic people looking for nothing more than confrontation and vindication on being "Right" in their mind, if you can't see that before you reply, you get trapped in a long long long post that does nothing between which they'll ignore the facts or side step them when asked about proof or evidence and bring up a completely different issue just so they can get the last word. -- Don't make my mistake, from 2011 until 2018 I ignored this forum and then I foolishly had to reply, never ever come back if you read this, I certainly won't be.

  2. So, im actually using some new things in game, from what i used to believe is best (respecing, regeming, regearing, wasting my time and gold), and trying to make the best possible build for Rogues AT THIS MOMENT IN TIME ON THIS SERVER, when the server is working the best way it ever did, with close to almost no bugs when it comes to classes and dps, while you just sit there preaching what you "know" based on Sims and old EJ threads that wer made years ago (btw, at that time, almost noone had enough time to test everything as BiS in game, since the patches moved way too fast and u wer lacking the RS gear), talking about how stuff here is outdated, and yet im the toxic person looking for nothing more than confrontation and vindication on being right in my mind.
    Talking how Armor Pen is bad at BiS, how DBW has no place in itemisation duo to long ICD, its just mindblowing to me.
    I might not have fancy numbers, but atleast i can be objective and share what i find that works best for me...
    Il most likely transfer my rogue to alliance so i can go in the raid with the guild im playing with to test these **** in an actual good raid, so feel free to not get saved in next VoA reset.

    P.S. I was always using my own, and your char as an example, which is so close to BiS that Crit has NO IMPACT on your DPS.
    As said alrdy, something u probably dont even understand i guess, Crit is USELESS once u get close to Crit Cap (talking about 1-2% off crit cap with full raid buffs and debuffs on target). If your glancing % increases from 24% to 26-30% all that Crit u gemmed is useless, where with Haste you dont have that problem.
    56-57% crit without any buff, gear only, is more than enough for Assassination rogue.

    11th November:
    The raid from last night: https://imgur.com/a/jfbOjEB
    A lot of wipes duo to being late and that being 8th Ruby run for the week (not a perfect comp).
    In phase 3 i didnt have 20% Haste, 5% crit, 4% physical dmg increase, 30% bleed, buffs/debuffs on the target (and i had to use Glyph of Fan of Knives).
    The main reason i linked this pic is to show you that with 67% crit, fully raid buffed, i have almost no Normal Hits with all Buffs, meaning, any crit above that point is a waste of stats. So, if you have more than 67% crit raid buffed, and Sim tells you to go for more crit, you should know that Sim is a piece of nob and that it doesnt know what is talking about.

    I will be linking more meters, will even try to make time to join a 25m ICC HC run and see how everything goes, but so far i think that 4/5 T10 set is the best out there.
    http://armory.warmane.com/character/...ecrown/summary

    12th November:
    https://imgur.com/a/OlKg8R8
    This was from ToC 10m normal.
    I had Horn of Winter aswell, and Sunder Armor 5/5 (Prot War tank), altho i didnt have Trueshot Aura, nor did i have Mangle.
    As you can see, when it comes to crit, even tho i have 67.03% raid buffed, I still had a Normal Hit, and my overall melee crit % in the end was 64.9%. Meaning, any crit above that point would be useless to get (I am 0.8% off the crip cap when every buff and debuff is taken into account, which is not worth gemming duo to glancing blows not being 24% exactly every time, on Jaraxus for example, i had 67.7% crit / 24.7% glancing / 6.8% miss / 0.8% hit blocked).
    As for Rupture DMG, you can see its doing more than 10% of overall Melee dmg, that was WITHOUT 30% dmg increase on bleeds, and 10% attack power aura. Lets say that Lightning Reflexes alone did exactly 10% more when it comes to melee dmg, it wouldnt get past the Rupture dmg gain (btw, uptime on Envenom was almost 100%, so i didnt lose uptime on that to do Ruptures). On top of that, duo to constant 4-5 CP Envenoms, that dmg is increased also, and Mutilate dmg is increased by 20% (on top of me doing more Mutilates aswell, 2 x Muti > Finisher) cos of the 51/13/7 build aswell.

    Next il post both VoA 25m and ICC 25m hc. After that i will have my final word on which spec and itemisation is better from my pov. So far, i think this spec and itemisation cant be beaten.
    Edited: November 12, 2018

  3. To bump the thread and to post tonights VoA run:
    https://imgur.com/a/chpThkP
    Uptime on both Envenom and Rupture was 101%.
    Both wer done with 4-5 CPs.
    Had some Envenom casts when Envenom buff was at 2-3 sec duration aswell...
    Didnt get my 2nd DBW proc, fight lasted arround 2mins only.
    I doubt there is any better spec and itemisation than this.
    AP proc from DBW made burst so huge, i think it reached 18.5k at one point.
    Rupture did far more than 10% of total Melee dmg only, so i doubt anything beats this spec and rotation.
    Anyhow, best of luck, hope this helped.
    Spec used for this atempt: https://wotlk.evowow.com/?talent#f0e...xV0hZxb:ITfVMc
    Armory for itemisation: https://armory.warmane.com/character...ecrown/summary

  4. First time posting on the forums since joining warmane. Just wanted to say that the info provided by you Gnimo has been a huge help me gearing my rogue towards a better spec. No where near BiS, only about 2 pieces of BiS gear at the moment, however, I recently switched from a 51/18/2 stat build to the one recommended by you (51/13/7) and saw nearly a 600 dps increase on my solo unbuffed damage to heroic dummy. I tested using the 4 or 5 combo point envenoms which helped a lot, though occasionally I had to toss in a 3 combo point envenom to maintain the buff. Great info though, thanks for the feedback and screenshots!

    Here is a link to my armory for reference:
    https://armory.warmane.com/character...daeron/summary

    I was able to pull off about 5k constant dps on heroic dummy for about 7 minutes.

  5. Saw the recent activity on the otherwise dead rogue forums and massive walls of texts and ill have to chime in:

    I recently played on a diff server that is progressing through togc25 heroic and I am for sure top 5 best mut rogues on there



    So lets shift the talk to something that matters: end game BIS dps race (which is where icecrown is)




    - WFS and 284 trinket from halion is BIS NO arguments

    - YES 1.8 dagger MH from H 25 LK is better than 277 1.4 MH

    - 51/13/7 is the ****** proof spec that was debated on EJ before and 51/18/2 is RNG based with 200~ dps increase on SINGLE TARGET BURN LIKE DBS HEROIC 25

    - Use 20 haste gems when you are ~6k gearscore, use 40 AP gems before that.

    - 4/5 t10 is better than 2/5 t10 using 51/18/2 as a SPEC ON A SINGLE TARGET BURN WITH DBW AND 284 HALION TRINKET.



    Page 17/18 wall of texts arguments are so....useless? We are talking about ENDGAME (25 heroic ICC) right?


    This game on 3.3.5 has been solved many many many many many many years ago (back in 2010) people knew EVERYTHING on EVERY FIGHT (literally go youtube 'spec x on fight y 3.3.5 wotlk' and there is pages of ppl on p servers flexing.

    on rawr: use it to find the trinkets and which gems to put where. NOTHING ELSE USE THE FIGHT AND PERSONAL EXPERIENCE OTHERWISE

  6. Its funny how people knew everything back in the days and nowadays people still use all kind of different builds for all kind of specs (dumb ones tho).

    WFS is not a BIS trinket, never will be. You are crit capped without it, ESPECIALLY if you go 51/18/2.

    As for the spec, and which one you should get, i wont discuss it since its hard for you all to re spec and try something else out apparently.

    As for the videos:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGKIsvXQ3UA
    I doubt he is that lucky to have energy back after every Envenom with 2/5 Rele Strikes.
    P.S. Linked the oldest one i got from my first search on Youtube: "wotlk assassination rogue pve" (didnt bother to scroll down more than once).

    When it comes to WotLK and classes, and 3.3.5 information, google and youtube has a almost no good info out there, most of them being scrubs that never bothered to try anything else exept the spec they like. That is the main reason people use dumb stuff and have dumb ideas on these forums aswell.

    Im on alliance now with my rogue, and whenever VoA opens, both 10 and 25m, im up for any kind of race to see which spec is better, cos apparently you cant be proven wrong otherwise (try to pick one out of 2 weekend days, since i dont have a lot of free time otherwise).

  7. DPS: https://imgur.com/a/hEl9jSG
    Spec: https://wotlk.evowow.com/?talent#f0e...xV0hZxb:ITfVcM
    After a long long time, I entered an actual raid with my Rogue and here are the results.

  8. DPS: https://imgur.com/a/hEl9jSG
    Spec: https://wotlk.evowow.com/?talent#f0e...xV0hZxb:ITfVcM
    After a long long time, I entered an actual raid with my Rogue and here are the results.


    wait.....at what cp to use rupture? Is this only viable with 6k+ gs gear?

    I dont see how this is better than just using the cp on an envenom... even with the 2 points in blood spatter

  9. I used rupture when i had Envenom buff on me, too much energy and too many combo points on the target already.
    It happens duo to good RNG on Relentless Strikes and Ruthlessness, and some rng from T10 4/5 set bonus.

    You would do 4 or 5 cp Rupture mainly when u are lucky, or while you have Overkill buff on you (unless you are unlucky with combo points).

    As you can see by the % of overall DMG that Rupture did, i had more luck on DBS than i had on Festergut.

    Overall, if you have extra energy and extra combo points, while you can keep Envenom uptime at 80-90%, its worth it to use Rupture at any point of your rotation. This cant be done with 51/18/2 talent spec however...

    Lets try to compare one thing also...
    If you add 10% to Melee count (Lightning Reflexes talent 3/3), including miss %, you would get 38 additional auto attacks. Lets say that u have same RNG on poison hits, that will result in 28 extra Instant Poisons. That is 65k extra dmg from Melee + 81k total of 146k dmg done. Lets say its exactly like this, even tho the poison count will probably be less on both these extra attack we are adding and the overall attacks duo to lower Envenom uptime (i had 90-99% uptime on both fights), that extra energy from Relentless Strikes will give u 8x Mutilates (16 since 1 Muti is 2 hits MH+OH) and 4x 5cp Envenoms atleast, which is total of 125k dmg (70k from Mutilate and 55k from Envenom).

    So 10% from Lightning Reflexes would give you total of 146k extra dmg,
    while total of extra dmg from Rupture and more Mutilates and Envenoms duo to more energy overall would be arround 246k (i know its more by the numbers i used here as an example, im using this number to simply put that its 100k + in pure dmg increase).
    Have in mind also that more combo points = more finishing moves = more ruthlessness proc chance = more t10 4/5 proc chance.

    The 51/13/7 spec is your safe bet to minimise the bad RNG chance and to increase dmg in case you have to switch targets and dps them asap (since you have more Mutilates and Envenoms and you are not relying only on Melee auto attacks, which dmg suffers when you move away from the target, while your energy bar is simply filling and leaving you with more burst once you reach your target which will again reward u with more dmg since u have those 7 talents in sub tree).

    Rupture should be done only if you have extra energy and extra combo points (or no other bleed on the target for Hunger for Blood).
    If you dont have extra energy and extra combo points, simply keep the Envenom buff close to 100% uptime and hope for the best when it comes to Rupture.

    P.S. If my calculations or logic behind this all is wrong, please do inform me here since the whole point of this is to learn and find the best possible spec for Assassination rogue, im not here to be right, im here to find the best spec for both me and everyone else and to play it. Also, as you can see im almost at the Soft Crit Cap, so 1/5 of those extra crit chance talent points would be useless aswell.

  10. Hello Assassination Rogues!
    I have lost all the hope long time ago in logging into my account again because I forgot its password. But yeah... A year or so later, I found out while reading my old notes that I have written my password down in my notebook.
    But yeah... I'm willing to update this guide if you guys are willing to help me.
    I'll update it section by section.
    Let's update Talents section my friends.
    Please share a guide which goes in to style with this guide.

    1 talent tree for leveling / gearing up
    1 talent tree for almost bis / bis
    Edited: January 9, 2019

  11. So you only use rupture if you have lets say: 4 combo points from getting a mutilate crit, the envenom buff is still rolling (like 3 seconds left or something), 6k+ gs with 4pc t10, 20 haste gems or 40 ap gems?

    The server i am playing on is currnetly on t10 (no heroic t10 released yet) so I am wondering if it would be wise to start off with the usual 2pc 10 + chest shoulders helm and 20 haste gems yet

  12. Rupture or not, 51/13/7 will always be the best talent choice.
    As for gemming and when to do what, i dont see why wouldnt u gem the BIS items you have with those Haste gems, eather 20 haste or 10agi10haste.
    You are thinking way too much about it tbh, if i wer u, i would go combat anyway instead. :D

  13. Hi Gnimo, I wanted to say I've been using your guide again, (same as the one for DK lol), and it's really great. This is my rogue.

    https://armory.warmane.com/character...ecrown/summary

    I was wondering the following, wouldn't it be better if you equipped two 1.80 daggers, because the upkeep of the poisons is either way really fast? Basically with 1.80 and 1.40 weapons i have now, it can never expire, so I don't see a reason why replacing that 1.40 dagger with 1.80 would make it dissappear much faster?

  14. Read "Deadly Poisons".
    "Once stacked to 5 times, each application of Deadly Poison also causes the poison on the Rogue's other weapon (main hand) to apply."
    Which means, more offhand hits, more Deadly Poisons, more Instant Poisons.
    As said in the previous discussion, you dont want a 1.8sec speed offhand in PvE.

  15. I've tested out two rotations on a lvl 80 dummy, one solely with envenom and another with envenom + rupture.

    1) With my 6002 gs, I managed to get to 6500 dps.
    2) With rupture added into it, the dps actually fell alot, up to 5800 dps.

    On the first rotation, doing it was quite simple, Envenom refreshes Slice and Dice, so no worries there at all. However with Rupture added into it, I had like few seconds left before it would run out. So on the second rotation, I had a more complicate time playing, let's say it like that.

    I didn't test it out with the 30 % increase in Rupture from the talents, but presumably it is possible the dps might have been around the same number, if not even higher at like 6700 max.

    To conclude, for possibly a higher dps by 2 - 3 %, you just made your life more difficult with the upkeep of Slice and Dice, and pushing another button added into the rotation. Not worth it in my opinion, especially because in raids you simply can't make mistakes and slack around.

First ... 917181920 Last

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •