WotLK About the 2H vs MH+OH discussion

[Hoskit]

So I understand MH+OH is definitely better, but by how much? Does anyone have the numbers?

[taralej]

Well, just go to openwow and compare the stats of Archus and Bloodsurge + Shadow Silk Spindle, gems & enchants included.

[Mahourai]

H Archus is a bad comparison, because it's a higher item level than you can get on an offhand.

Heroic Dying Light:

176 int
131 spirit
131 haste
3 sockets (red, blue, yellow)
837sp + 81 sp enchant = 918 sp

Let's gem it pure spell power so my math is simpler.

918 sp + 3 23sp gems = 987 total spell power

H Frozen Bonespike + H Sundial of Eternal Dusk

Frozen Bonespike:

75 int
66 spirit
50 crit
1 socket (blue)
836 sp + 63 sp enchant = 899 sp

899 sp + 23 sp gem = 922 sp

Sundial:

78 int
68 spirit
119 sp
68 haste

I'm going to add the stats of the crit and haste together, because I'm too lazy to hunt for a staff and mh/oh that have identical itemization. We're interested primarily in the difference in weight between them in a vacuum.

MH + OH together:

153 int
134 spirit
118 total secondary stats (crit + haste)
1,041 sp

So at the 277 item level, you're giving up 23 intellect and 13 points of secondary stat weight in order to get 54 more spell power. The difference becomes smaller as you go down in item level due to off-hands having smaller gains in spell power, iirc.

Not a huge difference, but a noticeable one between staves and MH+OH combos of the same item level.

[Ashmir]

^ ^ ^
It's not really a bad comparison, because, in the end, you shouldn't care if you're comparing a 284 + 277 with just one 284. You have access to either a 2h 284 or a 1h 284+277, so that's the comparison you should make.

[jendah]

H Archus is a bad comparison, because it's a higher item level than you can get on an offhand.

Heroic Dying Light:

176 int
131 spirit
131 haste
3 sockets (red, blue, yellow)
837sp + 81 sp enchant = 918 sp

Let's gem it pure spell power so my math is simpler.

918 sp + 3 23sp gems = 987 total spell power

H Frozen Bonespike + H Sundial of Eternal Dusk

Frozen Bonespike:

75 int
66 spirit
50 crit
1 socket (blue)
836 sp + 63 sp enchant = 899 sp

899 sp + 23 sp gem = 922 sp

Sundial:

78 int
68 spirit
119 sp
68 haste

I'm going to add the stats of the crit and haste together, because I'm too lazy to hunt for a staff and mh/oh that have identical itemization. We're interested primarily in the difference in weight between them in a vacuum.

MH + OH together:

153 int
134 spirit
118 total secondary stats (crit + haste)
1,041 sp

So at the 277 item level, you're giving up 23 intellect and 13 points of secondary stat weight in order to get 54 more spell power. The difference becomes smaller as you go down in item level due to off-hands having smaller gains in spell power, iirc.

Not a huge difference, but a noticeable one between staves and MH+OH combos of the same item level.

Part of the reason why 1H + OH is better is that you can avoid gearing spirit that way. (spirit is not terribad for mages, since part converts to crit, but still haste + crit items provide better dps)

Sundial (haste + spirit) is not a good choice for mages, at least count with Shadow Silk Spindle. (68 crit instead of spirit -> roughly 30 more crit in addition to sp gain)

[Mahourai]

I'm not talking about what items are BiS, or optimal, and presumably neither is the OP (we know it's Bloodsurge and Shadow Silk Spindle already). I was just analyzing what the difference in stat weight between an identical item level staff and main hand + off hand amounts to.

EDIT:

That is to say, the question I'm answering is "If you have a staff and a MH/OH with identical itemization, what's the difference?"

[Hoskit]

Thanks for the replies. I did my own research as well and the difference really isn't that big. At least not big enough for everyone who bought Archus as a donor weapon to be regarded as intellectually challenged. No doubt that MH+OH is better, but in the end, it is a difference of 60 crit rating or so at BIS if we disregard the benefits of stamina, intellect and spirit(molten armor accounted for).

[jendah]

Thanks for the replies. I did my own research as well and the difference really isn't that big. At least not big enough for everyone who bought Archus as a donor weapon to be regarded as intellectually challenged. No doubt that MH+OH is better, but in the end, it is a difference of 60 crit rating or so at BIS if we disregard the benefits of stamina, intellect and spirit(molten armor accounted for).

You forgot about sp difference.

archus:
893 sp + 3 red gems + 81 sp ench -> 1043 sp
141 spirit = cca 80 crit
141 haste

------------------------------------------------
bloodsurge:
893 sp + 63 sp ech + 1 red gem + 5sp socket bonus -> 984sp
55 crit
71 haste

bis oh:
119 sp
68 crit
68 haste

voteshop oh (cosmos):
84sp
41 crit
51hit
---------------------------------------------------------------------

mh + bis oh (difference vs archus):
1103 sp (+60)
123 crit (+40)
139 haste (-2)

bloodsurge + voteshop oh (difference vs archus):
1068sp (+25)
96 crit (+16)
71 haste (-70)
51 hit (+51)


Archus is a bad buy for mages since even the voteshop offhand makes 1H + OH combo a bit better (with potential to get even better stats as you progers further in raiding). Its not ok to be regarded as intellectually challenged due to buying worse thing its your choice.

[Hoskit]

That's a very good point, although I do feel it's a bit unfair to assume that the vote shop weapon is "free" since there are so many other armor pieces one would benefit more from than off-hand as a fresh 80. Although it does make Archus as a donor shop buy feel a lot worse.