Game starts ->War charges the disc, Sweeping Reck Bladestorm. Pala uses HoJ. Boom, the disc is either dead or has used ALL his CDs to stay alive on 6kish hp only to die from a 10k mortal strike. It happens occasionally and there's nothing the mage can do about it.
As lock lock/rsham, i still think it's simply not possible to beat a good one. But that might be just me, i'm pmuch playing without skype (cuz my partner is a ****)
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vs a war-pala if the mage just lets his disc get charge stormed like that, hes a bad mage (any team with a war should always have that war CCd early on while your disc partner is losing the **** out of em. meaning you, the mage, have too stay mounted up and go straight towards the war and get him in some form of CC early. vs more experienced war-palas it does require more effort to do but its still very doable and honestly still fairly easy). that should never happen so early on and more importantly if the disc cant survive a single bladestorm hes a terrible disc. a pala should never be that close to the disc as its extremely dangerous for him (i mean it makes it easier for disc-frost's to burn spam if your already chasing after the fkin priest) and can lead to the war-pala instantly losing. your battle theory is based on a bad disc-frost vs a decent war-pala and this is where you messed up.
(a key flaw in most peoples theoretical fights like this, is they always assume the enemy is BIS and glad level, while there team is just "normal" gear and or inexperienced. even though they dont openly say this the way they talk about it always heavily implies it. when really theyre losing (mostly) due to inexperience. oddly enough i had this war-pala argument with a molten glad warrior a few years ago. so me and that disc i was carrying at the time went and fought him and his partner in some skirms. mind you in his own words he "never lost to a disc-frost" and we went 10-0 vs him. he couldnt even get me or the disc to use def CDs and ofc he was a 6800 gs arms with a bis hpally. both of em playd decently [prolly 1700 mmr on AT at the time, though he was like 2500ish 2v2 on molten though i dont remember the number, i just remember he had the glad title] but he just cant out play such a hard counter. he had argued that "no decent hpally lets him self get burned" but he forgot that nothing about disc-frost LETS anyone get burned, they force them to get burned. we kept the war snared 100% of the game, while making sure to keep him nova'd or polyd as much as it can be. first few matches the pala kept tryin to remove the CC from him, using things like cleanse and Freedom. but id instantly steal freedom, and we kept sacred off of war 90% of the match to make sure we could keep winters chills stacks at max) but he quickly realized the more GCD's he wasted on that the more i stacked chills on him and got him cc spammed and burned so he started to focus on him self. and it ended the exact same way because he cant dispell winters chill when your gettin 1 chill debuff and a frost bolt debuff each cast (.5 sec cast) vs his 1 dispell every 1 gcd. eventually the war tried to just go all out and get to my priest to global him, but even though they opend with mounted freedom i still peeled the war enough to keep him and his pala busy while my priest out ran the freedom on his mount. in the end nothing the war or pala could do could counter the disc-frost's CC+burn strat. and they were some of the best people molten had to offer at the time. while its true they only played like a 1700 MMR AT team, at the time 1700 MMR on AT was rank 1 on molten. over time ofc the skill floor of AT lowered so that 1700 mmr/tr was easily obtainable through 12 matches but back then it atleast showd you had some concept of how to play. i had also watched AT glad's war-pala vs disc-frost, and it went about the same. a 2900 war-pala vs a 2400 disc-frost did litterally nothing they couldnt even slow the fight down. the disc-frost just burn'd the pala and ended it in less then 1-2 minutes. )
for lock/sham it is fairly hard sometimes to kill the destro ones, but its near impossible to kill an aff-rsham. you can kill the destro one because you can just instant dispell his immolate nerfing alot of his dmg, and he has no dispell protecting like aff's do. but ofc aff is the "king" warlock when playing with a healer so its only logical for them to be that op vs casters. (do note that rsham-aff is hard countered by war-pala unless said rsham-aff just severly out plays the war-pala)
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Dude i really don't know what server you play on, but i assume Blackrock? Cuz you're all like "oh if a disc can't survive a bladestorm he's **** herp derp" well no, cuz most warriors on 2k+ MMR r complete **** BUT have SHADOWMOURNE. Either way, please find a good HPW in Blackrock (or a PvE realm, who cares) and beat them as DPM. People learn. Times change.
PS: I am the priest -.-
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ive killed war-hpallys on most of the private servers out there with an instant 80 pvp realm xD. the priest i carried using his mage was on a molten realm (years ago b4 the at+molten merg) and the guy had 6800 gs, sure he hit like a truck but he cant even break barrier when your keeping him snared.
its not a matter of them learning, theres NOTHING they can do to actually stop your CC, which is what kills them. theres a few things that hurt the warrior/pala when they fight a disc/frost ill list em off a in a slightly easier to read manor.
1. Warriors are the easiest to cc Class in 3.3.5 (right below them is warlocks) this is because they cant remove any CC outside of fears so things like roots, snares and polys sit on em for as long as they arnt dispelled.
2. Winters Chill applys 2 debuffs on a target (without a barrier effect like say sacred or PW:S) every GCD basically, VS the Pala's 1 dispell every 1 gcd. (this is actually why the strats that work to kill war-pala dont work to kill war-priest, as that comp is near impossible keep double CC'd for long)
3. Pala cannot dispell himself AND the warrior equally, he has to choose and 9/10 they end up tryin to save them selves (or they'll try to get the CC off of the warrior and just watch as the warrior gets re CC'd with the same amount of Chills restacked all the while the disc is just burn spamming the pala).
4. the 5 Stacks of winters chills buys the mage alot of time, ideally the mage can get the chills up and poly war at the start (this will usually require you to CC the pala 2 if hes constantly Dispelling the) then Start getting his chills up on pala and then Nova+CS or Nova+DF him, into full burns into fear into more burns ect.
5. Warrior's Charge/intercept combo is only OP when you dont predict its use. for any patch pre 4.3 you can still jump stuns. warriors are some of the easiest to do it with as theyre so damn obvious with them. this hurts the war ALOT too. as both the priest and the mage can do this to basically troll him.
6. Pala's mana regen being really good is based on the war controling the fight, but disc-frost controls this fight. they have complete control over it and because of this. it means that hes going to be doing things he doesnt normally have to do, like spam dispells endlessly (which never works btw) while tryin to keep his mana up. the shear amount of CC that a mage brings to a war-pala team is so staggerin that some of the higher end war-palas on AT have always just insta quit any time they got a disc-frost. some still do xD
7. Lastly, both the disc and the mage should have really good mana regen (mage should be using 2 solace trinkets if hes playing disc-frost), meaning if the mage knows how to manage his mana and not spam dmg at the wrong times and such he'll never oom or really ever even need to use evo. and the mage can peel the disc so that he can eat mage food. effectively giving disc-frost yet another massive advantage.
Id like to point out that if your having problems as disc-frost vs war-pala its not usually the priests fault. its the mages, because the priests job vs war pala's is entirely based on his mages ability to keep the war CC'd. if you think he may be the problem then just watch him play next time and see if he does the following things.
1. Keeps warrior snared as much of the game as humanly possible, only letting the frost bolt debuff fade when the war is in a poly.
2. Even if he nova's the warrior/pala he keeps spamming r1's (to make sure they cant just get dispelled).
3. Focus's more on CC and less on DMG (til pala is oom), the thing i see from most frost mages that are failing in disc-frost teams. is they focus too heavily on DMG vs teams they dont have 2. alot of the time these same people have problems vs war-pala.
4. always keeping sacred off of the warrior using spellsteal (this is usually aided by the priest if war ends up with 2 many buffs) this also counts for freedom, but you want the mage to steal it if he can instead of priest just dispelling it.
5. goes for double CC's alot, for instance war's goin after you and ur chasing after pala. so logically the war and pala are likely to be within range of eachother so what can the mage do? he can run in and nova both the pala and the war then cover silence the pala (to prevent movement) then just poly him. then you can start the R1 spam on warrior making it a living hell for the warrior to ever move.
6. Doesnt waste blink, if the war is attacking mage. its basically game over for the war. because if the war stuns mage, the mage can just sit the stun while he gets healed then once war decides too bladestorm him all he has to do is blink the bladestorm. meaning he never has to use block unless the war-pala team actually apply very very heavy pressure. which is rare for equally geared fights.
7. lastly, he helps you dispell any important stuff. this was partly covered in number 4. but this is more an over all thing. you have to remove most of the buffs from a war-pala so that if they use things like freedom the mage can steal them, or the mana regen buff you can dispell/steal. making it alot easier on your team.
its very important that both the mage and priest not only play right, but play in sync with eachother. otherwise they usually just get rofl stompd.
If the mage is doing most of these things, then its likely on you (do note of all of the mages ive seen on molten about 2% of them actually did 2-3 of these things, ive met only 3 people who did over half and only 1 other who did all 7. so this makes it highly unlikely that hes doing them all). if not its going to be his fault and you should prolly either find a better mage, or find some way to help him improve.
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Well you said it yourself, you played it years before the merge. Nowadays every second warrior has shadowmourne/leather pve offset and crits for 7k mortals and most of them know the basics of playing their comp. I'm not saying i have problems beating them, it's as easy as 123, but it's not as easy as you explain it. You make it sound as if the warrior doesn't have Bladestorm, trinket, freedom from the paladin and such.
Once again, i am NOT the person who made this topic, i don't need long guide posts
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i think you may of misunderstood what i ment in the start xD i was saying that even years ago every war you fought past 1600 mmr on molten has atleast had full pve offs and a smourne (they were usually atleast 6400 GS with most of the ppl past 2k mmr being full on 6800 gs) this includes when i carried that rele/furi disc. ive fought warriors who could litterally 2 shot you if you wernt careful so i understasnd what your saying. but the funny thing is, theres not much a war can do DMG wise when hes the easiest class to CC (outside of ppl who rely on fear ofc). ive had war-pala's rage quit on most servers ive played on (including on AT) just because theyre was so little they could do. *war gets poly displled* .5 second later *repolyed* happens alot xD.
and it is easy, because we have 1000 more tools at our disposal then the war-pala does to counter theres, and bladestorm is something most warriors rely so heavily on. that when you learn how to counter it or atleast survive the first one you can oom and easily kill the war-pala team before the next one is even back up. its only hard to the inexperienced, but up until a certain point equally skilled and geared war-pala vs disc-frost fights are insanely easy. then once the disc-frost knows how to actually play. they can fight war-palas of a much higher lvl of skill. thats how you can tell its so easy.
so in the end it doesnt matter if your the one who made the topic, most of what i right is for whom ever needs it (even though it is initinally aimed at the person im responding too, i write it with possible future viewers in mind). sad to say but theres alot of miss information out there about disc-frost generally from the lesser experienced players (ive heard "war-pala counters disc-frost bro" from a large majority of newer mages ive met over the years.) which is why i write the long posts, some one will eventually come through and read em one day and hopefully it'll help.
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