WotLK [Guide] The in-depth Armor penetration guide for Fury warriors 3.3.5

[kidanje1993]

I didn't read the whole text but does that actually mean that in PvP ArP is more beneficial against a cloth than against a plate opponent?

In many Arms warr guides they recommend to get something between 60% - 70% ArP and stack strength afterwards. Why?

as far as im aware, arp > str any time when building a pvp warrior. doesnt matter the amount you gem as you will never reach the cap (with a proper gear setup, i.e not going 0 resil).

[Jakkre]

as far as im aware, arp > str any time when building a pvp warrior. doesnt matter the amount you gem as you will never reach the cap (with a proper gear setup, i.e not going 0 resil).

Im thinking the same but there are actually warrior that get only like 60%-70% arp and stack strength afterwards for whatever reason.

[Armand85]

it's cause of making balance vs clothers/leather. Play some time with full arp than switch to str and try bg, you will think they all undergeared.

[Jakkre]

it's cause of making balance vs clothers/leather. Play some time with full arp than switch to str and try bg, you will think they all undergeared.

Well, according to the OP arp is more beneficial against cloth and leather opponents than against high armor opponents.
This leads to the question if there is any valid point to get strength over arp.

[Armand85]

than it's absolutely false, just try yourself you will make crits on clothers and rogues which you never saw before with arp

[DarkenedHue]

I didn't read the whole text but does that actually mean that in PvP ArP is more beneficial against a cloth than against a plate opponent?

In many Arms warr guides they recommend to get something between 60% - 70% ArP and stack strength afterwards. Why?

Apply the armor cap, arp, and damage reduction formulas to a level 80 pvp target at 20k armor, and then another one at 30k armor. I think you'd find 100% Arp would yield a greater % damage increase on the one that had 20k total armor. OP's explanation for why Arp has lower value on high armor targets simply has to do with the fact that your bleed damage ends up comprising a larger portion of your damage on them, but I think if you worked out the formulas yourself you'd find there would be a greater increase to raw physical damage as well on the lower armor target.

[phaerys]

@ DarkenedHue, you said we can reach 100% arpen with just sunder + faerie fire on a dummy considered raid boss, but for exemple on dummy, you never dodge even with 0 expertise, maybe armor is not exactly the same too.

best to try damages evolutions is to dps without weapon, you will not have the swing of weapon making random number, it's super close all the time.

Sadly, can't reach 100% arpen on lordaeron atm, unless trinket proc that i don't have personnaly.

You can have other people (or you) apply a shattering throw to see if there is difference of damage with it on a true boss (like naxxramas etc) or even try the http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=11565 (yes, work on boss, from vanilla to even cata https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OgrRZccpeuM)

Can't reach negative armor, tested on wolfs lvl 1 with 70.88% arpen (992), hit for same amount (without weapon or proc trinket) with or without the -200 armor debuff.

But that would be mandatory if raid boss are not like dummies, and still get 315 armor.


Edit : on wowhead you can see someone say http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=11565 is not stackable with sunder armor lvl 70, because yeah at vanilla and TBC, sunder armor is a flat amount or armor, not a % like at LK.

[dike]

@ DarkenedHue, you said we can reach 100% arpen with just sunder + faerie fire on a dummy considered raid boss, but for exemple on dummy, you never dodge even with 0 expertise, maybe armor is not exactly the same too.

best to try damages evolutions is to dps without weapon, you will not have the swing of weapon making random number, it's super close all the time.

Sadly, can't reach 100% arpen on lordaeron atm, unless trinket proc that i don't have personnaly.

You can have other people (or you) apply a shattering throw to see if there is difference of damage with it on a true boss (like naxxramas etc) or even try the http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=11565 (yes, work on boss, from vanilla to even cata https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OgrRZccpeuM)

Can't reach negative armor, tested on wolfs lvl 1 with 70.88% arpen (992), hit for same amount (without weapon or proc trinket) with or without the -200 armor debuff.

But that would be mandatory if raid boss are not like dummies, and still get 315 armor.


Edit : on wowhead you can see someone say http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=11565 is not stackable with sunder armor lvl 70, because yeah at vanilla and TBC, sunder armor is a flat amount or armor, not a % like at LK.

sunder/faerie fire and shattering throw debuff (which stacks on top of those) have zero connection to ARP. accordingly to blue posts taken from retail 3.3.5 it was only possible to "fully ignore" boss armor only if u got all debuffs sunder/faerie fire/shattering throw. and btw on warmane base armor of bosses/heroic dummies is not exactly the same as it was on retail

[Mercy]

sunder/faerie fire and shattering throw debuff (which stacks on top of those) have zero connection to ARP. accordingly to blue posts taken from retail 3.3.5 it was only possible to "fully ignore" boss armor only if u got all debuffs sunder/faerie fire/shattering throw. and btw on warmane base armor of bosses/heroic dummies is not exactly the same as it was on retail

And that's because armor penetration != armor ignore.

[phaerys]

The question was not to know the diff between armor reduction and armor penetration difference, but how the item was calculated in the damage formula, compared to enemy's armor :

Prio 1 : Flat armor reduction > % armor reduction > Armor pen player => damages
Prio 2 : % armor reduction > Flat armor reduction > Armor pen player => damages
Prio 3 : % armor reduction > Armor pen player > Flat armor reduction => damages

All thoses 3 cases give differents results.

Case 1 and 2 could make it mandatory if put armor of the boss below 8317.5 as DarkenedHue said.
Case 3 would Be mandatory if work and boss still have 315 armor, but, since debuff in on boss, i do'nt think it would work like that, but need to test.

Case 2 seems the more correct (without test) since % debuff armor remove bigger number of armor. I wish i had the arpen gear atm to test.

Edit : i know at vanilla there is a macro to know armor and resistances of enemies with debuffs applied :

/script u=UnitResistance y="target" a=u(y ,0) h=u(y ,1) f=u(y ,2) n=u(y ,3) fr=u(y ,4) s=u(y ,5) z=u(y ,6) SendChatMessage(UnitName(y).." has "..a.." Armor, "..h.." HolyR, "..f.." FireR, "..n.." NatR, "..fr.." FrostR, "..s.." SR and "..z.." ArcR.", SAY)

Sadly, server do'nt give info so all values are 0 here, would be nice to have a GM giving number after all debuff are applied, or a dev giving the prio on debuffs.

[Mercy]

http://www.wowhead.com/forums&topic=...or-penetration

http://wow.gamepedia.com/Armor_penetration

[phaerys]

Thanks for participate, all thoses links are cool, but always same info again and again, and none talk if flat armor reduction debuffs like the crystal is applyed before or after the % reduction like sunder and faerie fire.

All links are only talking about players abilities only, what we already know how it works.

that's why, just being able to have the value of the armor on mob after apply all the debuff AND CRYSTAL, could give us the answer, if calculated first or after.

Guess i will need to wait 100% arpen to test it myself.

[phaerys]

So, today i made the tests on raid boss for the stackings.
Character with 1418 armor pen (so 100% arpen) , berserker stance (no influence of battle stance, if was still bugged like someone said long time ago)
Character is a warrior, BT means Bloodthirst, a spell who is related by only attack power, not weapon swing.

naxxramas anub rekan 10 men :
Farie fire + 5 sunder : BT hit for 2514.
Faerie fire + 5 sunder + shattering thow : BT hit for 2514
Faerie fire + 5 sunder + shattering thow + crystal yield : BT hit for 2514
Faerie fire + 5 sunder + crystal yield : BT hit for 2514

ToC Gormok the impaler 25 men :

Same results than naxx 10, BT at 2514 hit on all situations

Tests mades 2 times on each boss, removing all ap buff (enchant weapon, trinkets etc) with cancelaura macro, no bonus armor totem etc, no bonus talent enrage (proc from adds of gormok)

Conclusion :
When have 100% arpen, you already ignore all the armor of the boss if there is the 20% debuff (sunder, rogue) and the faerie fire (5%) on it.
You don't need the shattering throw on lordaeron to reach max damages. Crystal yield is useless too.

On a previous test, Crystal yield still reduce the armor when there is only sunder x5 (like 0.9 - 1% damages increase)

[dike]

So, today i made the tests on raid boss for the stackings.
Character with 1418 armor pen (so 100% arpen) , berserker stance (no influence of battle stance, if was still bugged like someone said long time ago)
Character is a warrior, BT means Bloodthirst, a spell who is related by only attack power, not weapon swing.

naxxramas anub rekan 10 men :
Farie fire + 5 sunder : BT hit for 2514.
Faerie fire + 5 sunder + shattering thow : BT hit for 2514
Faerie fire + 5 sunder + shattering thow + crystal yield : BT hit for 2514
Faerie fire + 5 sunder + crystal yield : BT hit for 2514

ToC Gormok the impaler 25 men :

Same results than naxx 10, BT at 2514 hit on all situations

Tests mades 2 times on each boss, removing all ap buff (enchant weapon, trinkets etc) with cancelaura macro, no bonus armor totem etc, no bonus talent enrage (proc from adds of gormok)

Conclusion :
When have 100% arpen, you already ignore all the armor of the boss if there is the 20% debuff (sunder, rogue) and the faerie fire (5%) on it.
You don't need the shattering throw on lordaeron to reach max damages. Crystal yield is useless too.

On a previous test, Crystal yield still reduce the armor when there is only sunder x5 (like 0.9 - 1% damages increase)

so it pretty much proves that arp mechanic just doesnt work how it supposed to lul

[DarkenedHue]

Conclusion :
When have 100% arpen, you already ignore all the armor of the boss if there is the 20% debuff (sunder, rogue) and the faerie fire (5%) on it.
You don't need the shattering throw on lordaeron to reach max damages.

Yeah the cause of this is the different armor constant value currently used. This bug's been around forever and I don't think anyone's cared to make a report yet so I did some weeks back: https://www.warmane.com/bugtracker/report/41515.