[Wrath] DPS is NOT Blizzlike!

[Mahourai]

I recall PP 25 HC was insane to pull over or let alone near 10k DPS as many melees - especially Retries since half of the their damage requires "rev-up" time but the oozes would either reach their target or be destroyed right when all the buffs and DoTs were at their full potential, causing nonstop resets. A difficult fight for melee... dodging the choking gas bombs or your DPS gets rekt to nothing... pretty hard but still a fun fight.

You would have the melee like that sit on Putricide and melee who can swap easily go assist on oozes. Your raid was almost certainly ranged-heavy anyway so you probably didn't need a full swap.

[Pibels]

You haven't raided much with good and geared rogues lately.
Assassination isn't viable afaik, but combat rogues are pulling good DPS - as I said, good and geared ones are on the top 5, also it's the class the bursts the most.

Yeah well are far more superior options when it comes to rogues, since retributions can do a lot more dps, Combat is top 10 at LK or not even that.
Don't compare Rogue DPS to other classes in 1 fight, only fight where rogues really shine is DBS, and there only 19k tops.
When its comes to any other fight, rogues suck.
I was full bis on my rogue before the wipe, and no they are not pulling good DPS, nothing has changed with the abilities since.

[DarkGrudge]

If you're so concerned by the DPS numbers, find what's actually broken and report on that.

For example, I have seen people complain that RET pallies get to double-dip the 30% buff on some of their abilities (Seal of Command maybe? Can't remember -- but I recall it be in the old bugtracker at least). It would seem that you should be able to take a closer look at some of the breakdowns provided by Skada and Recount and see if any look horribly out of place (as compared to estimates on the various theory-crafting sites, such as EJ and others). But, since you're seemingly posting pictures from other threads that you were not active in the encounter with them, it's hard to really judge it as "broken." My anecdotal evidence so far has shown the DPS to approximately inline with what I remember on retail, especially given the broken mechanics on some fights and the ridiculously geared players.

Simply showing that some classes are capable of hitting 30k doesn't really help address the problem, as you see it. Showing the breakdown of that 30k hunter's DPS for that encounter would. If all of his breakdowns are perfectly inline with what it should be, and he's simply completely BiS on an ideal fight with awesome RNG results and this number no where near typical, oh well...it's close enough for me. If it's showing his serpent sting is 33% of his damage or something somehow, then let's fix that.

[Heraxion]

Yeah well are far more superior options when it comes to rogues, since retributions can do a lot more dps, Combat is top 10 at LK or not even that.
Don't compare Rogue DPS to other classes in 1 fight, only fight where rogues really shine is DBS, and there only 19k tops.
When its comes to any other fight, rogues suck.
I was full bis on my rogue before the wipe, and no they are not pulling good DPS, nothing has changed with the abilities since.

This is like worst best excuse ever. I used to play X class/spec in the past, can confirm it's ****. Dude, you do realize that many things were changed after wipe? So many overscaling bugs fixed, DPS isn't even close to what it used to be few years ago. Also, rogues can do ~21-19k DPS constantly (on stationary fights) which is considered really high and more than 27k burst if you do your starting rotation properly. Nowadays people don't cross over 23-24k with certain classes, some can barely get to 20k to begin with on DBS. And that's assuming that your raid has every single buff/debuff and all the players are really damn good.

Also, since when do we measure skill of a player by their damage done on boss or some target? So what if I'm #13 damage-wise on that boss? Maybe I prevent a raid wipe by sacrificing my DPS and stunning that double-enraged Shambling Horror? Maybe I protected someone with my Blind on Vile Spirit? So many factors that may lower my DPS but may save raid from wiping which you don't account into all of this. Also, you say DPS is high here but you don't consider current scripts which are really out of hand at the moment, especially for end-game raiding. You NEED this slightly higher DPS otherwise you will wipe on a boss because you weren't lucky enough and got 'outscripted'.

[Sixtyninee]

I was full bis on my rogue before the wipe, and no they are not pulling good DPS, nothing has changed with the abilities since.

So you've been hiding under a rock for the recent updates. They have fixed rogue abilities, so stop talking out your ***.

[Pibels]

So you've been hiding under a rock for the recent updates. They have fixed rogue abilities, so stop talking out your ***.

Alright, let's see...

Spoiler: Show

Spoiler: Show

Spoiler: Show

Spoiler: Show

So there is all of the changes that has happened to rogues since wipe.
None of those bug fixes has affected Assasination or Combat spec AT ALL, So could you elaborate what has changed?

This is like worst best excuse ever. I used to play X class/spec in the past, can confirm it's ****. Dude, you do realize that many things were changed after wipe? So many overscaling bugs fixed, DPS isn't even close to what it used to be few years ago. Also, rogues can do ~21-19k DPS constantly (on stationary fights) which is considered really high and more than 27k burst if you do your starting rotation properly. Nowadays people don't cross over 23-24k with certain classes, some can barely get to 20k to begin with on DBS. And that's assuming that your raid has every single buff/debuff and all the players are really damn good.

Also, since when do we measure skill of a player by their damage done on boss or some target? So what if I'm #13 damage-wise on that boss? Maybe I prevent a raid wipe by sacrificing my DPS and stunning that double-enraged Shambling Horror? Maybe I protected someone with my Blind on Vile Spirit? So many factors that may lower my DPS but may save raid from wiping which you don't account into all of this. Also, you say DPS is high here but you don't consider current scripts which are really out of hand at the moment, especially for end-game raiding. You NEED this slightly higher DPS otherwise you will wipe on a boss because you weren't lucky enough and got 'outscripted'.

Let's imagine this hypothetical situation where everyone on the raid was FULL BIS, and ofc raid had all of the buffs that they can possible get. (Including potions, flasks etc.)
Everyone is on same skill level, which means they know what their class is capable of doing, They know the tactics and noone is failing in what they are doing.
Now I can bet money on this, Rogue WILL not be first top 10, 100%.

Note that this is a situation where you dont have to stun shambs or anything that you "shouldn't" do normally, everything is going perfect.

Now I want to stop this stupid arguing, Rogues are broken, and yes everyone can pull high dps with full bis gear, you should expect that.
And yes there are multiple classes that are doing more damage than they should.

Cheers.

[Heraxion]

Rogues are broken because they do 19k DPS?

???
???
???

Explain what's broken, give screenshots and provide details. The only thing I know about (which is still not working properly) is Hack and Slash proc % (~2.5% instead of 5%). Anything else seems fine to me though. And even if you wouldn't see rogue in top 10, it isn't because it's broken. It's because there are still some abilities which overscale. Although I doubt you wouldn't see a good rogue in top 10, you can easily pull 20k (as BIS combat) sustained without having to trust on RNG (luckier fights may yield 21-22k DPS at the end). As for The Lich King fight, it's different and as a rogue you serve a role of quite high damage dealer while sticking on a single target. This may explain why it's lower than other classes (who, may I remind you, usually have some AOE ability (Divine Storm/Cleave/Howling Blast/Wandering Plague etc).

EDIT: Just fyi, I do not think there's some major rogue ability which is broken. It is the overall class mechanics which were broken but got patched up just a while ago. If I do find the log, I will post it.
EDIT 2#:

Spoiler: Show

This is the fix which was relevant for rogue/FDK/fury warriors.

[Delythien]

In my opinion, Rogues aren't broken (maybe certain mechanics doesn't work 100%, but it's not game changing), the only difference between them and other high damage dealing classes is that they don't benefit that much from the 30% damage buff in ICC - there's no double-dipping.

I'd say that Rogues are fine, just some of the classes are double-dipping a tad too much. I'm not pointing out a specific ability, I'm not pointing out a specific class, but to me (if I'm comparing to retail) it seems that the overall DPS is just some % higher than it's supposed to be.

[Pibels]

Rogues are broken because they do 19k DPS?

???
???
???

Explain what's broken, give screenshots and provide details. The only thing I know about (which is still not working properly) is Hack and Slash proc % (~2.5% instead of 5%). Anything else seems fine to me though. And even if you wouldn't see rogue in top 10, it isn't because it's broken. It's because there are still some abilities which overscale. Although I doubt you wouldn't see a good rogue in top 10, you can easily pull 20k (as BIS combat) sustained without having to trust on RNG (luckier fights may yield 21-22k DPS at the end). As for The Lich King fight, it's different and as a rogue you serve a role of quite high damage dealer while sticking on a single target. This may explain why it's lower than other classes (who, may I remind you, usually have some AOE ability (Divine Storm/Cleave/Howling Blast/Wandering Plague etc).

EDIT: Just fyi, I do not think there's some major rogue ability which is broken. It is the overall class mechanics which were broken but got patched up just a while ago. If I do find the log, I will post it.
EDIT 2#:

Spoiler: Show

This is the fix which was relevant for rogue/FDK/fury warriors.

When hack and slash will be fixed, it will be HUGE DPS boost.
Since you didn't read what is wrong with the bug I will explain it to you.

The Hack and Slash talent currently procs (activates) off of the following registered hits frequently: successful Main Hand weapon swings, Main hand weapon Poison.

The following registered Hack and Slash hits that rarely to never occur have been registered: Sinister Strike, Blade Flurry, Offhand strikes, Fan of Knives, Killing Spree and Eviscerate.

How should it work
Hack and Slash should be procing off of instant --Physical-- damage stemming from your Axe and Sword weapons. Sinister Strike should not be a rare proc, the instant damage dealing poisons on your main hand shouldn’t proc Hack and Slash due to it being a source of nature damage, not physical damage. Your off hand should be procing Hack and Slash more frequently. Eviscerate (Hack and Slash) should be registering on damage dealing addons.

And ohh, proc rate (%) is messed up also.

This will have huge impact on Rogue DPS, Imagine ur Sinister Strike hitting twice when you press it once, or evicerate or whatever, use ur imagination.

If you want more information about the bug: http://bugtracker.warmane.com/issues/22

EDIT: full bis and good rogues doing 19k, you have to think about the people who dont have bis gear and their dps blows, there are A LOT classes that do 19k dps and not even close to full bis.

[Qtinz]

When hack and slash will be fixed, it will be HUGE DPS boost.
Since you didn't read what is wrong with the bug I will explain it to you.

The Hack and Slash talent currently procs (activates) off of the following registered hits frequently: successful Main Hand weapon swings, Main hand weapon Poison.

The following registered Hack and Slash hits that rarely to never occur have been registered: Sinister Strike, Blade Flurry, Offhand strikes, Fan of Knives, Killing Spree and Eviscerate.

How should it work
Hack and Slash should be procing off of instant --Physical-- damage stemming from your Axe and Sword weapons. Sinister Strike should not be a rare proc, the instant damage dealing poisons on your main hand shouldn’t proc Hack and Slash due to it being a source of nature damage, not physical damage. Your off hand should be procing Hack and Slash more frequently. Eviscerate (Hack and Slash) should be registering on damage dealing addons.

And ohh, proc rate (%) is messed up also.

This will have huge impact on Rogue DPS, Imagine ur Sinister Strike hitting twice when you press it once, or evicerate or whatever, use ur imagination.

If you want more information about the bug: http://bugtracker.warmane.com/issues/22

EDIT: full bis and good rogues doing 19k, you have to think about the people who dont have bis gear and their dps blows, there are A LOT classes that do 19k dps and not even close to full bis.

As full BiS Combat Rogue you will burst 30k-35k on any boss. Last time I went ICC25n with my guild I had one rogue using TotT on me and I had a 41.5k burst on Marrowgar. I dropped to 20.5k on the end of the fight, but still... 14.5k DPS on LK in this raid, kill after 12min because of only 10ppl alive in P3.

You can't keep the big numbers up, as you will struggle with energy after AR and BL are gone. So yeah, compared to retail you may fall behind other classes the longer the fight lasts. Fights that last 120-180 seconds. If you get a second AR or use Glyph of KS you still get this burst up and running for fights like Sindy and LK. You are still able to compete with top dps. And the fun fact is, that the better your raid comp. and average GS is, the higher your personal DPS will be.
On a raid with only BiS people you may be behind mages, paladins or warriors. But you are definetly competing with them on patchwerk encounters like DBS or Festergut on Warmane. With alot of movement all classes struggle with max dps. It's always about knowledge of the encounter.

€dit: And just to clarify: I'm an average rogue. It's an alt and I don't play it alot. I've seen much more skilled rogues than me, pulling even more dps.

[Heraxion]

When hack and slash will be fixed, it will be HUGE DPS boost.

Define huge. What, combat DPS will increase by 100% or something? It won't be huge (not gonna increase your DPS from lets say 15k constant DPS to 20k constant DPS) but it will be noticeable on Recount. As Delythien mentioned earlier, rogues are absolutely fine as they are at the moment and it is very viable class for end-game raids (assuming player which is playing that class isn't complete garbage).

[Sixtyninee]

Let's imagine this hypothetical situation where everyone on the raid was FULL BIS, and ofc raid had all of the buffs that they can possible get. (Including potions, flasks etc.)
Everyone is on same skill level, which means they know what their class is capable of doing, They know the tactics and noone is failing in what they are doing.
Now I can bet money on this, Rogue WILL not be first top 10, 100%.

I was 5th in damage done when I got LoD on my rogue, I was also 7th on DBS, and yes the raid was bis. I guess reality is different from hypothesis. You also missed where they fixed various issues that weren't class dependant.

[Pibels]

Define huge. What, combat DPS will increase by 100% or something? It won't be huge (not gonna increase your DPS from lets say 15k constant DPS to 20k constant DPS) but it will be noticeable on Recount. As Delythien mentioned earlier, rogues are absolutely fine as they are at the moment and it is very viable class for end-game raids (assuming player which is playing that class isn't complete garbage).

DPS will definitely be more constant, at the moment your "high" dps is Based on your cooldowns.

I was 5th in damage done when I got LoD on my rogue, I was also 7th on DBS, and yes the raid was bis. I guess reality is different from hypothesis. You also missed where they fixed various issues that weren't class dependant.

Good for you, I was expecting to get some screenshots here but nope, I'm ogre with 7 eyes and 2 heads.

[Sixtyninee]

Good for you, I was expecting to get some screenshots here but nope, I'm ogre with 7 eyes and 2 heads.

I'll remember to document myself writing this line of text as well, because you know, I totally keep that on hand just for you when you can't believe something that multiple people have obviously observed and mentioned.

[Mercy]

Good for you, I was expecting to get some screenshots here but nope, I'm ogre with 7 eyes and 2 heads.

Pray tell, what evidence exactly have you provided to the contrary?

This thread is filled with logical fallacies. Y'all need to learn how to have a proper argument.