1. Fury warr CLEAVE on LK phase 1?

    Ok so I just got called a "noob" for having cleave in my rotation on Lk phase 1 which I don't mind but I have a question to all you "pro" fury warrs out there.

    But I am a 6.2k furry warr with Glyph of Cleaving, Glyph of Heroic Strike, Glyph of Wirlwind.

    My rotation was BT>WW>HS>CLEAVE>Slam and CDs as I see fit ofc.

    I also have 3 points in improved cleaving talent. And 1 point in Enrage talent.

    So I've been told that cleaving LK on first phase will do less damage on Lichking himself. Why? I have DrDamage addon that tells me that my average cleave dmg is 6001 (unbuffed) and heroic strike is 6011 (unbuffed) so the damage of the skill itself is pretty much the same. I know that Cleave costs more rage 20 and heroic strike costs 12 if you have 3 points in Improved heoic strike talent. I also understand that Heroic Strike criticals give me additional rage because of the glyph. (Don't have rage issues either way due to ghouls attacking me when I use cleave.)

    During our conversation about Cleave these things came up.
    Pros: Endless rage pool due to ghouls attacking you when using cleave. (counters cleave rage cost)
    Pros: Enrage talent proccing due to damage. (more dps)
    Pros: Biggest Epeen on DPS charts.
    Pros: Lowers Ghoul Hp making it easier to transfer and stack Necrotic.

    Cons: Healers having to work harder healing Ghoul smacks.
    Cons: Lower damage to Lichking himself according to the person who called me a noob. (not noticed during single target testing)
    Cons: Slam doesn't proc as often lowering my single target dps. (tested both rotations and slam damage done over 1.4 mil damage Slam with HS spam did 0.5 % more damage overall. And that could easily be countered by a good procc. So it's really not that big of a single target DPS increase.)

    So again my question is "How can my damage to LK be lower while using Cleave/HS combo? (both skills hit pretty much the same amount) And how can Spamming Heroic Strike increase my DPS?
    Edited: June 30, 2015

  2. Ok, so...

    Getting hit by Ghouls is not your job.
    Damaging Ghouls in LK phase is not your job.
    Nobody cares if you're doing higher DPS when that DPS comes from adds.
    Cleave < HS on single target.
    Cleave can't proc Bloodsurge.
    PvE DPS Fury builds don't have Enrage as there are no healthy means to proc it.

    So yeah, using Cleave on LK phase is bad, your logic points only towards higher overall DPS, and your talents and glyphs are wrong.
    Edited: June 30, 2015

  3. Ok, so...

    Getting hit by Ghouls is not your job.
    Damaging Ghouls in LK phase ia not your job.
    Nobody cares if you're doing higher DPS when that DPS comes from adds.
    Cleave < HS on single target.
    Cleave can't proc Bloodsurge.
    PvE DPS Fury builds don't have Enrage as there are no healthy means to proc it.

    So yeah, using Cleave on LK phase is bad, your logic pointa only towards higher overall DPS, and your talents and glyphs are wrong.


    Mind elaborating on what I should do and what glyphs to get? I am here to get help not to be told that everything I do is wrong.

    Why is HS>Cleave? Why is having ghouls low hp bad? Why is Enrage talent bad? How do you know that using cleave will deal less damage to LK?
    Edited: June 30, 2015

  4. HS simply does more damage than Cleave, that's all. Even if you talent Cleave, HS still deals more damage for less Rage, and more importantly - it procs Bloodsurge.

    Damage to Ghouls is irrelevant because Necrotic Plague will oneshot them anyway. More Ghouls - more Necrotic Plague stacks.

    Enrage is a bad talent simply because it never procs in PvE. Enrage only procs from direct damage and if you draw direct damage to yourself then you're in a pretty bad position and you're opening healers more work than needed.
    Edited: June 30, 2015

  5. HS simply does more damage than Cleave, that's all. Even if you talent Cleave, HS still deals more damage for less Rage, and more importantly - it procs Bloodsurge.

    Damage to Ghouls is irrelevant because Necrotic Plague will oneshot them anyway. More Ghouls - more Necrotic Plague stacks.

    Enrage is a bad talent simply because it never procs in PvE. Enrage only procs from direct damage and if you draw direct damage to yourself then you're in a pretty bad position and you're opening healers more work than needed.
    If u even bothered speccing for enrage youd have noticed that it actually does proc quite alot in PvE.

  6. If u even bothered speccing for enrage youd have noticed that it actually does proc quite alot in PvE.
    True. It used to proc when I was playing on the old Lordaeron realm from aoe damage. By the way you should be able to pull those ghouls with your single target rotation since Whirlwind already deals a lot of aoe damage, so I suppose there's no need to spam Cleave just to obtain the Enrage proc. Talking about glyphs, I suggest you to replace your Glyph of Cleaving with the Glyph of Rending. Adding Rend to your single target rotation should increase your dps by 1k.
    Edited: June 30, 2015

  7. HS simply does more damage than Cleave, that's all. Even if you talent Cleave, HS still deals more damage for less Rage, and more importantly - it procs Bloodsurge.

    Damage to Ghouls is irrelevant because Necrotic Plague will oneshot them anyway. More Ghouls - more Necrotic Plague stacks.

    Enrage is a bad talent simply because it never procs in PvE. Enrage only procs from direct damage and if you draw direct damage to yourself then you're in a pretty bad position and you're opening healers more work than needed.
    There are a number of mechanics in various encounters in ICC that still proc enrage, which makes the talent a decent place for any leftover talent points (and there are a good number of them) to go. As for ghouls, cleaving them has the advantage of spreading your deep wounds over more targets, tremendously increasing 2p t10 uptime during P1. As for HS vs Cleave, the difference between their damage is extremely trivial, and almost certainly made up for by enrage procs. Ghoul damage is largely also a non-issue with Glyph of Holy Light over-healing splashing all over the melee DPS, and ghouls being on the plate-wearing warrior who gets rage from their attacks is better than ghouls going onto the mage/boomkin from spells like Living Bomb and Starfall.

    The only real downside as you mentioned was the reduced number of Slam procs, so what it comes down to is whether the significantly higher 2p uptime and Enrage procs makes up for for the fewer Slams, in terms of DPS on LK.
    Edited: June 30, 2015

  8. Ok, so...

    Getting hit by Ghouls is not your job.
    Damaging Ghouls in LK phase is not your job.
    Nobody cares if you're doing higher DPS when that DPS comes from adds.
    Cleave < HS on single target.
    Cleave can't proc Bloodsurge.
    PvE DPS Fury builds don't have Enrage as there are no healthy means to proc it.

    So yeah, using Cleave on LK phase is bad, your logic points only towards higher overall DPS, and your talents and glyphs are wrong.
    Usually the job of the dps in high-intensity encounters is to make the encounters as simple to do as they can.

    If the Warrior can dps down the adds, allowing for less time needed for the rest of the raid to actually wipe them out and concentrate on the Necrotic Plagues/Giant Adds whose name I forget/LK, what's the actual downside? If you aggro some of the adds, they certainly aren't going to kill you (If they do, then your raid isn't going to kill LK anyway). And your raid won't hit the LK enrage timer because of it (If they do, something is far more wrong than cleaving adds)

    Therioter, Glyph of Cleaving aside, you're doing everything right. In Phase 1, I always cleaved. I always taught my warriors to cleave (Except when giant add is about to spawn, because you don't want to accidentally aggro that one). It makes the whole raid's job in P1 easier.

  9. iSullivan's Avatar
    iSullivan
    Guest
    IMO it doesn't matter if you do 40k dps in p1 if only 15k or 20k are on LK, since the phase change is triggered by the LK hp hitting 75%(?) hp, i much rather more dps on the LK. As for the enrage, you can easily aggro ghouls with a well timed whirlwind.

  10. Other thing to consider is that ghouls apply movement slow.. not a problem in norm.. but once you get to HC and have to move on Shadow Trap..

  11. There are a number of mechanics in various encounters in ICC that still proc enrage, which makes the talent a decent place for any leftover talent points (and there are a good number of them) to go. As for ghouls, cleaving them has the advantage of spreading your deep wounds over more targets, tremendously increasing 2p t10 uptime during P1. As for HS vs Cleave, the difference between their damage is extremely trivial, and almost certainly made up for by enrage procs. Ghoul damage is largely also a non-issue with Glyph of Holy Light over-healing splashing all over the melee DPS, and ghouls being on the plate-wearing warrior who gets rage from their attacks is better than ghouls going onto the mage/boomkin from spells like Living Bomb and Starfall.

    The only real downside as you mentioned was the reduced number of Slam procs, so what it comes down to is whether the significantly higher 2p uptime and Enrage procs makes up for for the fewer Slams, in terms of DPS on LK.
    Finally a player who knows his stuff and explains his reasoning. Thank you.

  12. True. It used to proc when I was playing on the old Lordaeron realm from aoe damage. By the way you should be able to pull those ghouls with your single target rotation since Whirlwind already deals a lot of aoe damage, so I suppose there's no need to spam Cleave just to obtain the Enrage proc. Talking about glyphs, I suggest you to replace your Glyph of Cleaving with the Glyph of Rending. Adding Rend to your single target rotation should increase your dps by 1k.
    I will try this. Thank you for your input.

  13. IMO it doesn't matter if you do 40k dps in p1 if only 15k or 20k are on LK, since the phase change is triggered by the LK hp hitting 75%(?) hp, i much rather more dps on the LK. As for the enrage, you can easily aggro ghouls with a well timed whirlwind.
    ^this...
    Other thing to consider is that ghouls apply movement slow.. not a problem in norm.. but once you get to HC and have to move on Shadow Trap..
    ...and ^this.

    @Therioter, DarkenedHue has his point, I know him, and I respect him - however, that doesn't change the fact that the above 2 quotes are still the most important thing in this fight. Not DPS on Ghouls or whatever else bothers your mind... I main Warriors ever since I started this game 10 years ago back at 1.9. I also explained very VERY simple why you should prioritize HS and not Cleave. You just chose to argue because you didn't agree. Get over it, sonnie...

    And yeah, Enrage is simply a filler talent. Could just put those points in Commanding Voice, Piercing Howl, or even Heroic Fury. The damage gained from 2-3 points in Enrage is not much and does not apply for tank'n'spank fights. Panofsky, I know it also used to proc from AoEs. I read your reply in the Fury guide 3 years ago.

  14. ^this...


    ...and ^this.

    @Therioter, DarkenedHue has his point, I know him, and I respect him - however, that doesn't change the fact that the above 2 quotes are still the most important thing in this fight. Not DPS on Ghouls or whatever else bothers your mind... I main Warriors ever since I started this game 10 years ago back at 1.9. I also explained very VERY simple why you should prioritize HS and not Cleave. You just chose to argue because you didn't agree. Get over it, sonnie...

    And yeah, Enrage is simply a filler talent. Could just put those points in Commanding Voice, Piercing Howl, or even Heroic Fury. The damage gained from 2-3 points in Enrage is not much and does not apply for tank'n'spank fights. Panofsky, I know it also used to proc from AoEs. I read your reply in the Fury guide 3 years ago.
    There is nothing to get over. I came here because in game people keep telling me to use HS instead of Cleave but NOONE and i mean NOONE can prove that HS is better to use. People say its more damage..I tested it on 2 warrs...damage is the same.. so the only way Cleave would loose in dps to HS is if the warrior got rage starved or Cleave ignored main target and only hit adds, which it doesn't it hits main target and one (or 2 with glyph) additional targets. So unless you can give me solid proof with numbers you really have nothing to do in my thread. I WANT TO BE PROVEN WRONG....not just told that I am wrong. SO PROVE ME WRONG!
    Edited: June 30, 2015

  15. Heroic Strike criticals will net you 10 Rage, keep that in mind.

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