Let's talk about city guards.

[CrimeToWitness]

Obviously people can't level through strictly PvP, last I checked kills did not grant experience. When you think about it like that though it's like saying people should be able to only level through dungeons/raids, it is obviously possible but the two aren't really connected (gearing vs questing for exp).

On the city attacking not being trivial, it is to some of us. I love running into enemy cities, and I love the fact that the opposite faction comes into our's. It's not like people's lives are going to end because a couple of NPCs are killed, there are four other cities that will likely serve them the same way (city attacking is almost strictly capitals).

If city attacking was not meant to be in the game there wouldn't be achievements like Wrath of the Horde/Alliance or City Defender, which some of us have worked to earn. City attacking is just an aspect of the game that will never appeal to the entire community, but that doesn't mean it should be made more challenging for those of us that enjoy it.

[Jayrogu]

This is my opinion and what I think is going on not just in PVP but in everything as well in general.

I could be wrong but I don't think the increase of guard damage was done 'intentionally' by warmane. I think it's all involved in my theory of 'jumbled scripts/scripting.'

For example, when they released an update that enhanced pvp visual spells and animation, A LOT of ICC got affected. Yesterday when they made some hotfixes, the valks on icc10n became immune to CC. Now you might think and ask, why should PVP fixes affect ICC? They are 2 completely different things!

Was this done intentionally? Ofc not. After all, why would it be... The staff are aiming to make it a quality server so there's no reason to intentionally screw things up. So, back to my theory.

I've been here for a long time and this pattern has always been happening. Things get fixed and others broken at the same time. It has something to do with the scripts and I name it 'jumbled' because it seems all the scripts or codes are intertwined so that if 1 thing is changed, another thing is also changed.

It's like this:

Hello, my name Jay is and I am a warmane player.

This statement is wrong. Let me fix it:

Hello, my name is Jay and I am a player warmane.

Fixed. But wait...something is not right now again!

^ That's what I mean.

In the end, that's just what I think. I could be wrong as I said but this ongoing pattern has led me to think that this is what is happening. I believe that Lordaeron's core will be better and less 'jumbled' than what it's like on Rag/Dw. Unless a developer or admin states that they intentionally increased guard damage, my theory stands.

[Obnoxious]

Is any of this anything more than personal speculation?

It's something called "logical thinking" and using it to reach conclusions. This isn't the first time this is brought up, it has even been reported as a bug a few times, it has been acknowledged by different Staff members, and it's still here. I don't picture it as being a difficult or time-consuming task to remove the tweak, so it wouldn't make it a matter or not having resources to deal with it. With the current focus on Lordaeron and the intention of using its new core on other servers as well, I don't see this being changed (after being around for one year+) before the other Wrath of the Lich King servers get this new core - and that's assuming the tweak isn't inherited in Lordaeron when people start easily overpowering guards.

It's not petty to want custom nonsense affecting PvP negatively removed. What's petty is making PvPers deal with said custom nonsense because god forbid they try to PvP.

Ironic how your "reply pic" works here too.

Obviously people can't level through strictly PvP, last I checked kills did not grant experience. When you think about it like that though it's like saying people should be able to only level through dungeons/raids, it is obviously possible but the two aren't really connected (gearing vs questing for exp).

On the city attacking not being trivial, it is to some of us. I love running into enemy cities, and I love the fact that the opposite faction comes into our's. It's not like people's lives are going to end because a couple of NPCs are killed, there are four other cities that will likely serve them the same way (city attacking is almost strictly capitals).

If city attacking was not meant to be in the game there wouldn't be achievements like Wrath of the Horde/Alliance or City Defender, which some of us have worked to earn. City attacking is just an aspect of the game that will never appeal to the entire community, but that doesn't mean it should be made more challenging for those of us that enjoy it.

No, it's not the same thing as saying people should only be able to level through dungeons or raids. The argument isn't about "Battlegrounds vs Dungeons," but PvP vs PvE - and all PvE quests you use to level are, obviously, PvE.

And yet again, if this tweak was meant to make attacking cities impossible, and the achievements you mention un-achievable, you wouldn't be just having a harder time invading, you would simply get one-shot from range each and every time. No one is forbidden from doing it, people just don't steamroll it with a tiny group.

(...)

I'm going to just assume you have no clue whatsoever about how programming works, and what cascading effects even mean. Scripts aren't "jumbled." They are simply re-used, so to say. If you have a spell that causes a movement reduction of 50% you don't create a script that reduces movement by 50%. You create one that reduces speed, by a variable amount, that will be sent as a parameter when that script is called, because the likelihood of there being more spells or effects that cause the same thing, but with a different value, is high. It would be a huge mess to have different scripts for every possible percentage or keep adding new ones when a new percentage is needed. Now consider that there is a dozen scripts linked like that to do one single thing, except they depend on each other to send parameters. If you tweak one to fix something, there's always chance you will break something else you didn't even know was fed data from it.

But no, BlueAo back in the day confirmed it was intentional.

[CrimeToWitness]

And yet again, if this tweak was meant to make attacking cities impossible, and the achievements you mention un-achievable, you wouldn't be having a harder time invading, you would simply get one-shot from range every time. No one is forbidden from doing it, people just don't steamroll it with a tiny group.

Not going to disagree with this, however, there are ways into almost all the cities for certain classes and geared players to easily avoid guards, and the strength of goblins make PvP in those cities extremely difficult.

EDIT: Not so much easily avoid as cut through, and while a city with many guards like Silvermoon could be difficult there are definitely options in Org and SW

[Jayrogu]

I'm going to just assume you have no clue whatsoever about how programming works, and what cascading effects even mean. Scripts aren't "jumbled." They are simply re-used, so to say. If you have a spell that causes a movement reduction of 50% you don't create a script that reduces movement by 50%. You create one that reduces speed, by a variable amount, that will be sent as a parameter when that script is called, because the likelihood of there being more spells or effects that cause the same thing, but with a different value, is high. It would be a huge mess to have different scripts for every possible percentage or keep adding new ones when a new percentage is needed. Now consider that there is a dozen scripts linked like that to do one single thing, except they depend on each other to send parameters. If you tweak one to fix something, there's always chance you will break something else you didn't even know was fed data from it.

I can understand what you mean when it comes to spells, damage, CC, etc...

But how do boss fights get affected when other unrelated things are changed? If there is a parameter, for example, of a PVP spell that affects a boss fight...then I don't know what to think or say. If that's the case, then that's kind of messed up. Stability would be hard to achieve.

But no, BlueAo back in the day confirmed it was intentional.

Then that settles it. It's a 'custom' non-blizzlike change that was decided by the admins of the server.

[Obnoxious]

Not going to disagree with this, however, there are ways into almost all the cities for certain classes and geared players to easily avoid guards, and the strength of goblins make PvP in those cities extremely difficult.

EDIT: Not so much easily avoid as cut through, and while a city with many guards like Silvermoon could be difficult there are definitely options in Org and SW

That's basic on a class-based system. Classes have different advantages and disadvantages, certain things will be easier for one and very hard for others. It's the kind of thing that makes you want to group with those to do things they have an easier time at. World of Warcraft has never been a class-balanced game after all, it's party-balanced. Classes aren't meant to all be equal and able to do everything equally, you make balanced parties for that.

I can understand what you mean when it comes to spells, damage, CC, etc...

But how do boss fights get affected when other unrelated things are changed? If there is a parameter, for example, of a PVP spell that affects a boss fight...then I don't know what to think or say. If that's the case, then that's kind of messed up. Stability would be hard to achieve.

I just gave a simple example, which doesn't necessarily applies to what you want to apply it to. Just because an update "fixed something in PvP" AND "broke something in a boss" doesn't means those two are related. A lot of fixes deal with background things players don't even know are happening, but that are still essential. Fixing one of those background things to make it ready for or compatible with something else can break other mechanics. Programming something large like a game is more like playing Jenga than like building a house.

[DamnOriginal]

Is any of this anything more than personal speculation?

It's something called "logical thinking" and using it to reach conclusions. This isn't the first time this is brought up, it has even been reported as a bug a few times, it has been acknowledged by different Staff members, and it's still here. I don't picture it as being a difficult or time-consuming task to remove the tweak, so it wouldn't make it a matter or not having resources to deal with it. With the current focus on Lordaeron and the intention of using its new core on other servers as well, I don't see this being changed (after being around for one year+) before the other Wrath of the Lich King servers get this new core - and that's assuming the tweak isn't inherited in Lordaeron when people start easily overpowering guards.

You don't need a paragraph to say "No.", Logicus Maximus. These are indeed nothing more than your own conclusions. What I'm looking to get is a solid, factual answer, not philosophy.

Ironic how your "reply pic" works here too.

In what way is it ironic when I'm clearly aware it applies to all opinions, mine included? Or did you for some reason think I wasn't aware of the fact that I was expressing an opinion on something as subjective as what can be considered petty? Am I supposed to pad out every single opinion I make with "In my opinion I personally believe that..." like some sort of beauty pageant contestant during the question round just because some people lack the logical thinking to realize the obvious?

No, it's not the same thing as saying people should only be able to level through dungeons or raids. The argument isn't about "Battlegrounds vs Dungeons," but PvP vs PvE - and all PvE quests you use to level are, obviously, PvE.

You're not even able to follow your own argument, which was never PvE vs PvP but rather that PvP is a small part of the game because PvE is bigger, which is just completely fallacious.

Spoiler: Show

PvP is just one part of the game, and a pretty small one at it.

No, it's a pretty small part of the game because that's how the game was made,

Is the U.S considered small because it's located on America, which is much bigger than the U.S? No, that's stupid. Where's that logical thinking I keep hearing so much about?

That's basic on a class-based system. Classes have different advantages and disadvantages, certain things will be easier for one and very hard for others. It's the kind of thing that makes you want to group with those to do things they have an easier time at. World of Warcraft has never been a class-balanced game after all, it's party-balanced. Classes aren't meant to all be equal and able to do everything equally, you make balanced parties for that.

Another argument that makes no real sense in the current context. No class struggled against guards on retail because of their disadvantages when it comes to fighting guards, all of the non-elite guards were wimps. The struggle some classes currently face against guards is nothing but a byproduct of this custom change, it has nothing to do with the way the game was balanced because CC immune 5k melee swing guards didn't exist when Blizzard was balancing their game. That's as dumb as increasing PvE raid boss damage by 50% and then concluding that prot paladins were always meant to be the only tanks because of the 'class-based system". Utter nonsense.

[Obnoxious]

You don't need a paragraph to say "No.", Logicus Maximus. These are indeed nothing more than your own conclusions. What I'm looking to get is a solid, factual answer, not philosophy.

Well, you should be thankful, since it seems it's all you're managing to get, isn't it?

In what way is it ironic when I'm clearly aware it applies to all opinions, mine included? Or did you for some reason think I wasn't aware of the fact that I was expressing an opinion on something as subjective as what can be considered petty? Am I supposed to pad out every single opinion I make with "In my opinion I personally believe that..." like some sort of beauty pageant contestant during the question round just because some people lack the logical thinking to realize the obvious.

In the way that you take the time to post a reply picture, which is done as a sort of mockery, instead of just stating it's my opinion and you have a different one, despite being aware you were mocking yourself as well.

You're not even able to follow your own argument, which was never PvE vs PvP but rather that PvP is a small part of the game because PvE is bigger, which is just completely fallacious.

Only the way you try to twist what I say is fallacious. But go ahead and prove me wrong by making a full comparative listing of everything PvE and everything PvP in the game, so we can see just how fallacious it is to say that PvP is a small part of the game. PvP is like professions, with the difference those have more variety.

Is the U.S considered small because it's located on America, which is much bigger than the U.S? No, that's stupid. Where's that logical thinking I keep hearing so much about?

The U.S. is small when you take the whole planet into consideration, which would be an actual valid comparison. Is it the smallest part of the planet? No. But it's still small in the context.

Another argument that makes no real sense in the current context. No class struggled against guards on retail because of their disadvantages when it comes to fighting guards, all of the non-elite guards were wimps. The struggle some classes currently face against guards is nothing but a byproduct of this custom change, it has nothing to do with the way the game was balanced because CC immune 5k melee swing guards didn't exist when Blizzard was balancing their game. That's as dumb as increasing PvE raid boss damage by 50% and then concluding that prot paladins were always meant to be the only tanks because of the 'class-based system". Utter nonsense.

It only makes no sense in the context because you consider you and what you say are the center of all contexts. Unfortunately, you aren't. Replies given to other people (they exist, for reals) have no obligation to fit in your bellybutton.

[DamnOriginal]

Well, you should be thankful, since it seems it's all you're managing to get, isn't it?

There's nothing to be thankful for. Nothing of what you said has cleared up the situation.

In the way that you take the time to post a reply picture, which is done as a sort of mockery, instead of just stating it's my opinion and you have a different one, despite being aware you were mocking yourself as well.

I did simply state that it's your opinion, I just did it with a picture and then presented my opinion, themed with the word "petty" because I found your use of it amusing and needlessly condescending as usual. Should I add the Big Lebowski to your list of triggers?

Only the way you try to twist what I say is fallacious. But go ahead and prove me wrong by making a full comparative listing of everything PvE and everything PvP in the game, so we can see just how fallacious it is to say that PvP is a small part of the game. PvP is like professions, with the difference those have more variety.

I don't have to twist anything, you're simply wrong. Just pointing out that PvP is an aletrnative gear progression to PvE is enough to prove you wrong. It's not small, it's smaller, there's a difference and the sooner you realize that the sooner you ca...

PvP is like professions

with the difference those have more variety

PvP

like professions

those have more variety

Oh wow, I just had an epiphany. Thank you for this, you may have saved me a lot of time trying to reason with you in future posts.

[Obnoxious]

Denial is indeed a powerful thing.

[Audioholic]

Not all custom content is bad but the current guards are just ludicrous.

[Markux]

Denial is indeed a powerful thing.

Yes, as is stubbornness.

[Evangelion]

I don't know why you even bother around it. It's custom content, but isn't half of the raid/dungeon/battlegrounds scripting custom content as well, yet nobody 'cries' about most of that.

I mean, look at IoC and SotA and even Alterac Valley - PvP wise.
PvE wise - Most dungeons are scripted like someone who started learning 6 months ago how to do it made their scripts.
Raids are in better position, but still, stuff such as Anub'Arak(most of the fight) and Valithria can't be considered as anything except custom content.

There's a lot more things people should focus on other than Guards...

[DamnOriginal]

I don't know why you even bother around it. It's custom content, but isn't half of the raid/dungeon/battlegrounds scripting custom content as well, yet nobody 'cries' about most of that.

I mean, look at IoC and SotA and even Alterac Valley - PvP wise.
PvE wise - Most dungeons are scripted like someone who started learning 6 months ago how to do it made their scripts.
Raids are in better position, but still, stuff such as Anub'Arak(most of the fight) and Valithria can't be considered as anything except custom content.

There's a lot more things people should focus on other than Guards...

Bugs =/= custom content. Please think before you type.

[Evangelion]

Being in game for 5 years stops making it 'just' a bug. Also, this is a bug too, they're just probably too lazy to be bothered with it and simply call it custom content.

Anyways, just go make drama about something more important than useless guards...