Let's talk about city guards.

[sale1337]

PvP is just one part of the game, and a pretty small one at it.

See, this is what I hate about what this server has become. It's only a pretty small part of the game because the staff cares that much about it and its population. City guards' bull**** damage, wintergrasp, sota's tanks and generally ioc, let's not talk about crucial pvp spells/talents that get fixed once every five years. But hey, ICC and other instances are working flawlessly, right? PVE balances are important so that rogues know their place on the dps charts, but DK's gargoyle having no resilience and being immune to silences isn't important enough to get patched I guess. The server has been up since 2009, don't you tell me the developers were unable to find out how to fix this, it isn't a small unimportant bug that doesn't affect PVP at all, and it isn't the only thing that is broken.

A lot of people that just played PVP (remember pokemonz from deathwing?) don't play anymore. Like I said, it wouldn't be such a small community if you showed us some love.

[Obnoxious]

No, it's a pretty small part of the game because that's how the game was made, despite what you might think or try to claim.
Now, stick to the topic, or don't take part in it if you just want to pull it towards complaining about bugs.

[Myxx]

Guard damage is stupid. It wasn't like this on wotlk retail and it shouldn't be like this here, period. If it is going to remain like this, then why can't we have cross-faction whispers and cross-faction mailing (to your own account) again? That was removed a long time ago because it wasn't retail like, so why was this ever implemented? Oh, to accommodate the players who don't/can't PVP.

[DamnOriginal]

No, it's a pretty small part of the game because that's how the game was made, despite what you might think or try to claim.
Now, stick to the topic, or don't take part in it if you just want to pull it towards complaining about bugs.

What is your argument even supposed to be here? "Disregard the minority"? PvP might be the younger, ill-conceived bastard sibling of PvE, but that doesn't mean it's small, it just means it's smaller than PvE and about as true as saying the U.S is small because America is bigger. A small part of the game would be pet battles, not one of the two progression paths the game offers.

And we're yet to hear any proper answer on why guards are doing more than 1000% extra damage compared to retail. I thought the goal was to be as retail-like as possible and custom changes should only happen under the most direst of needs. Where does this need for guards hitting more than some heroic dungeon bosses come from? I know it's not the gear level because you could easily kill non-elite guards on retail naked. The perpetual picture I seem to be getting is that the reason this is still in the game isn't because there are any good arguments for it but rather because it's not a priority to remove.

[Obnoxious]

What is it meant to do here? Just shed some light on the fact PvP - and even further, niche "city raid" PvP - is just one side-aspect of the game. Feel free to show me your leveling from 1 to 80 strictly with PvP to prove me wrong, though. Meanwhile, consider that more people and more threads show up asking for ganking to be a bannable offense than the handful complaining that their world is shattered because invading a city isn't something trivial. Should we listen to those people before we listen to the people here? Of course, with PvP being such a major thing in World of Warcraft, it really puzzles me how being unable to attack a city matters that much, yes?

The goal is to be as retail-like as the Administration decides in the end of the day. Or are you going to complain that you want to pay a retail-like monthly fee?

[Sainthero]

Guard damage is stupid. It wasn't like this on wotlk retail and it shouldn't be like this here, period. If it is going to remain like this, then why can't we have cross-faction whispers and cross-faction mailing (to your own account) again? That was removed a long time ago because it wasn't retail like, so why was this ever implemented? Oh, to accommodate the players who don't/can't PVP.

This tbh. Blizz-like was their answer to arguments like these back then but now they say this server will never be blizz like. They control their own logic here lose-lose for us to argue with them atm honestly.

[sale1337]

Feel free to show me your leveling from 1 to 80 strictly with PvP to prove me wrong, though.

Wow, this is your argument against what he had to say? Well okay, how about if battlegrounds worked properly we could level up to 80 strictly with PvP. I'd gladly show you but hey, PvP isn't an important part of the game around here so I am unable to.

I don't know what's your problem with PvP but if you're trying to live up to the nickname you've got, you're doing great.

[Obnoxious]

Yes, I wrote a paragraph, but one single line plucked out of it is my argument.

But feel free to use an example from retail.
I'm sure there are many videos out there showing the whole path from 1 to maximum level doing nothing but PvP, yes? Or at least very detailed guides? There are so many of those for PvE, so it's only natural that something so important for World of Warcraft itself would have even more documentation for that. Unless PvP is, in fact, not the center (or anywhere close to) of World of Warcraft.

[sale1337]

Yes, I wrote a paragraph, but one single line plucked out of it is my argument.

But feel free to use an example from retail.
I'm sure there are many videos out there showing the whole path from 1 to maximum level doing nothing but PvP, yes? Or at least very detailed guides? There are so many of those for PvE, so it's only natural that something so important for World of Warcraft itself would have even more documentation for that. Unless PvP is, in fact, not the center (or anywhere close to) of World of Warcraft.

There are points from the paragraph I missed? Ok, how about all the threads crying for pvp get undeleted so we have more arguments about the PvP aspect? Is this what you were targeting? You asked for a way to level up, I told you about one. If you need a guide that explains the process of 'enter bg -> win bg' then I don't know what to tell you.

[DamnOriginal]

What is it meant to do here? Just shed some light on the fact PvP - and even further, niche "city raid" PvP - is just one side-aspect of the game. Feel free to show me your leveling from 1 to 80 strictly with PvP to prove me wrong, though.

PvP isn't a "side-aspect", it's the other side. PvE and PvP are the two primary ways of gear progression in WoW, by calling it small, the only thing you're shedding light on is how little you understand about the game you're playing. The fact that PvE plays a larger part in the game and thus includes aspects like leveling proves nothing more than the fact that PvE is, surprise, a larger part of the game. What does leveling from 1 to 80 by PvPing have to do with what you're saying? It once again only proves that PvE is more encompassing than PvP. Does it prove that PvP is a small part of the game? No.

Meanwhile, consider that more people and more threads show up asking for ganking to be a bannable offense than the handful complaining that their world is shattered because invading a city isn't something trivial. Should we listen to those people before we listen to the people here? Of course, with PvP being such a major thing in World of Warcraft, it really puzzles me how being unable to attack a city matters that much, yes?

I honestly have no idea what you tried to say here, it makes no sense no matter how I read it. You're saying more people make threads about ganking than about guards being OP and then asking me whether staff should listen to one or the other like the amount of people whining about a problem was an argument I made for judging the merits of a change. It wasn't. Why isn't ganking bannable even though so many people cry about it? Because it's not retail-like which is the #1 reason custom suggestions get discarded. Why is ridiculous guard damage being treated differently? Nobody knows and it's a subject I would appreciate some clarifications on. No offense but your condescending attitude-ridden opinions about PvP don't seem to be clarifying anything.

The goal is to be as retail-like as the Administration decides in the end of the day. Or are you going to complain that you want to pay a retail-like monthly fee?

Which is pretty damn retail-like if you've ever taken a look at suggestion section rules. If increasing guard damage by 1000% was suggested there right now, it would instantly get dismissed for being not retail-like, which is mostly why I'm so puzzled as to why this even exists. "If you don't like it, then go play retail" is a stupid argument and you should feel bad for using it, especially when people are just trying to suggest some improvements to the server that actually lead to it becoming more retail-like and not the other way around as is common for most other suggestions.

TL:DR: Basically, I would really appreciate some reasoning from a member of the staff that isn't based on personal opinion. If it's just a case of "people cried about it and we gave it to them" can someone just come out and say it?

[Obnoxious]

I can assure you threads aren't deleted for "being about PvP." Whose fault it is if the content in that kind of thread breaks Forums rules that get them deleted, assuming your claim is correct?

And no, I wasn't asking for a guide. More like showing me all these strict-PvPers who have leveled only with PvP content. It's a rhetorical request, since I'd be surprised if there was even one. The point being, yet again, that PvP is part of the game, but that's it. It's not the main focus, not even a large part of it, or you would be able to level only with it, not to mention new content released would focus much more on different PvP content, which isn't the case. People here are - borrowing your word - crying as if PvP was the major thing World of Warcraft is about and that being unable to take two or three buddies to invade a capital is ruining the whole PvP aspect. All the while ignoring that the major open-PvP aspects, which are ganking and the server being flagged as PvP, are there.

If having a harder time invading a city (do note, harder time, not in any way impossible) ruins your gaming experience, maybe your problem isn't really the current increased damage being done by guards.

[Obnoxious]

Which is pretty damn retail-like if you've ever taken a look at suggestion section rules. If increasing guard damage by 1000% was suggested there right now, it would instantly get dismissed for being not retail-like, which is mostly why I'm so puzzled as to why this even exists. "If you don't like it, then go play retail" is a stupid argument and you should feel bad for using it, especially when people are just trying to suggest some improvements to the server that actually lead to it becoming more retail-like and not the other way around as is common for most other suggestions.

TL:DR: Basically, I would really appreciate some reasoning from a member of the staff that isn't based on personal opinion. If it's just a case of "people cried about it and we gave it to them" can someone just come out and say it?

The Administration decides what goes in and what doesn't. We discard anything not-retail like suggested by players, while the Administration has the freedom to add or tweak whatever they see fit. Is that clear enough? "They are the owners, it's their call"?

[DamnOriginal]

The Administration decides what goes in and what doesn't. We discard anything not-retail like suggested by players, while the Administration has the freedom to add or tweak whatever they see fit. Is that clear enough? "They are the owners, it's their call"?

This tweak was implemented by the previous administration. None of the players even know what the current administration's position on this is. Maybe it changed, maybe it hasn't. Maybe they don't even know this exists like you a few months back because of the small amount of people bringing it up as you've already mentioned in one of your brilliant arguments. You don't know. I don't know. So why are you so adamant about defending this change? Just relax, sit back and wait for someone with actual knowledge of why this exists write something. And if that doesn't happen, just let this thread fade into obscurity until another PvP-er brings up the issue in another thread about a month from now. Or better yet, if you have access to someone with more information through your position of moderator, why not ask them and let us know? There are so many more productive things you could be doing right now other than ****ting on PvP for whatever reasons.

[Obnoxious]

Yes, the tweak was implemented during the interim Administration. But the fact stands that the current one hasn't had this reversed so far - and it's been over half an year. This has been brought up before, to the point a QA (pretty sure it was a QA) stated it would be brought up for fixing - and yet it remains.

So Staff is aware of this change, is aware of the complains and it has been taken to the development side of our structure. There are then two possibilities: it's being delayed - perhaps to be changed when the new core is expanded from Lordaeron to the other Wrath of the Lich King servers, perhaps because it's hardly a priority - or it's here to stay.

Regarding why I defend the tweak, it's very simple: for one, I stand behind any decision made by the Administration; and besides that, I consider this complain extremely petty when people are still able to attack cities, it's simply not trivial.

[DamnOriginal]

Yes, the tweak was implemented during the interim Administration. But the fact stands that the current one hasn't had this reversed so far - and it's been over half an year. This has been brought up before, to the point a QA (pretty sure it was a QA) stated it would be brought up for fixing - and yet it remains.

So Staff is aware of this change, is aware of the complains and it has been taken to the development side of our structure. There are then two possibilities: it's being delayed - perhaps to be changed when the new core is expanded from Lordaeron to the other Wrath of the Lich King servers, perhaps because it's hardly a priority - or it's here to stay.

Is any of this anything more than personal speculation?

Regarding why I defend the tweak, it's very simple: for one, I stand behind any decision made by the Administration; and besides that, I consider this complain extremely petty when people are still able to attack cities, it's simply not trivial.

Spoiler: Show

It's not petty to want custom nonsense affecting PvP negatively removed. What's petty is making PvPers deal with said custom nonsense because god forbid they try to PvP.