10 Man Naxx vs 25 Man Naxx Boss HP

[Hazeck]

Disclaimer: Please read the whole post carefully before replying! I'm not criticizing the fact that boss HP is being scaled. I'm strictly discussing the relative amount of scaling in 10 man vs 25 man.

I've noticed that 10 man Naxx boss HP is 250% to 350% greater than retail numbers (varies depending on the boss) and 25 man Naxx boss HP is only 100% greater than retail numbers.

You generally have 6 DPS in a 10 man raid. You generally have 16 or 17 DPS in a 25 man raid PLUS additional buffs.

So, for example, assuming tank dps is half as good as regular DPS and a raid has 6 DPS and 2 tanks:

Retail 10-Man Patchwerk HP: 4,322,950
Retail 10-Man Patchwerk DPS requirement/Person: 2058 DPS/Person
Lord 10-Man Patchwerk HP: 10,807,375
Lord 10-Man Patchwerk DPS requirement/Person: 5146 DPS/Person

For 25 man, assuming 2 tanks, 6 healers, and 17 DPS:

Retail 25-Man Patchwerk HP: 13,038,575
Retail 25-Man Patchwerk DPS requirement/Person: 2414 DPS/Person
Lord 25-Man Patchwerk HP: 26,077,150
Lord 25-Man Patchwerk DPS requirement/Person: 4829 DPS/Person

Notice how in retail Blizzard had it set so that the per person DPS requirement in 25 man raids was higher than in 10 man raids. This makes sense since you tend to have more buffs available in 25 man raids so people naturally do a bit more DPS.

However, with current numbers you need more DPS per person in the 10 man raid than the 25 man raid. This doesn't seem correct to me.

The discrepancy is even more significant on fights like Anub'Rekhan, who are scaled by 350% higher than retail while 25 man still only scales 100% higher!

[Jmiller44]

Very good post, this is why a static HP increase doesnt work. This doesnt make it "harcore" it makes it near impossible. Naxx wasnt supposed to be hard, its the first raid of the xpac. People are going to struggle enough in Ulduar hardmodes without 200% health increases. I think Warmane needs to rethink their design philosophies.

No want wants to come into Naxx and wipe for 2 weeks trying to progress.

[truckatron]

i dont understand, why would they add this to begin with?
its going to set an elitest precedent where NO ONE will be allowed to go.

i dont even know why they are doing it, there will be hardmodes when ulduar hits anyway.
this isnt hardcore, its nonsense

[Hazeck]

I think that the key thing is that 25 man drops better gear, yet currently requires less DPS per person (despite 25 man raids offering more buffs to players). It really hurts smaller guilds who only have enough raiders for a 10 man and greatly benefits larger guilds capable of raiding with 25.

[coazmaj]

From what we can see here on lord all dmg per player is about 150% higher. If dps/dmg is 150% higher than on retail but ppl still have same amount of hp, pvp will be broken here.. like some people already belive. But for pve 10 man should be harder than 25 man since u have less people to cordinate.. but its only mine opinion.

[Iqpl]

But for pve 10 man should be harder than 25 man since u have less people to coordinate.. but its only mine opinion.

Well said, all though i would like both to be close to equal in difficultly, it just makes sense and warmane's most likely thinking the same thing.

[Mondsch3in]

there is nothing wrong with the opionion that both lockouts should beclose to the same difficultly, but blizzards desgin behind that was clearly that 10 was not alot but decent easier than 25. That why u get quality lower gear than 25er. It was for smaller guilds who had sometimes not the option to go with a well balanced setup into that raid.
And i know some ppls will disagree with that, but u have to bear in mind that if someone in 10 fks up ur raid is moslty fks up. If someone in 25er fks up you still being able to do ****.
Just saying...

[Hrdlo]

But for pve 10 man should be harder than 25 man since u have less people to cordinate.. but its only mine opinion.

Um explain to me please and Im currently being very polite about this, but how exaclty is setting dps the requirement for 10man encounter higher than the 25man? Blizzard worked with the theory that since there are less ppl in raid/area you have more space for maneuverability, making it easier to coordinate and thus being a little better to push numbers, while not being full raid buffed.

Now wit the current buffs on PTR some bosses are just pure dps struggle and here is why:
1. 10man doesnt provide nearly full raid buffs, nor should it be requirement to bring buff classes rather than standard groups.
2. The current gear that is availible on PTR vendors that everyone has access to is above average in terms of what ppl will have in the 1st week.
3. Average 10man dps is 4,5k +-10% depending on the RNG of boss mechanics.

And for example on the DPS check-like fight which Patchwerk is in both 10/25 man where will the coordination of 10 ppl be when all you do is stand still and pump out raw numbers of damage to meet the 5146 DPS per person. Tanking cooldowns? healing cooldowns? I dont belive those add any damage. ( except for being dead, in which case you ofcourse lose the dmg) So all in all this will just turn into RNG based wipe fest favouring those who like to stay on an ecnouter for 30+ wipes just to get the near-perfect procs/crits for most of the dps.

Anyway this is just my opinion on how things are currently from my pov. Feel free to argue just dont blatantly dissaprove.

[medocar]

Maby staff wants it to be like vanilla wow, where only less than 1% players finished nax

[Kelthuzzad]

Maby staff wants it to be like vanilla wow, where only less than 1% players finished nax

I really doubt it... Once you are fully dungeon geared with a bit of OS gear you will be enable to start progressing through the easier wings of Naxx and then start progressing on Patchwerk (once you have gear) and the other bosses as well. People are just more forced to do dungeons and proffesions to minmax for Naxx.

[Mondsch3in]

yeah which seems to be funny...

i dont wont to be harsh but...if u arent into balancing Systems you shouldnt try to force "balance" things for raids they wont work out well.
just my opinion

[Kelthuzzad]

yeah which seems to be funny...

i dont wont to be harsh but...if u arent into balancing Systems you shouldnt try to force "balance" things for raids they wont work out well.
just my opinion

Well people have killed it (not sure about the new buffs to bosses since guilds did it on PTR) but it's defently not impossible to kill them... The only heavily gear dependant fight is Patchwerk and the rest of the bosses sure needs some gear as well to attempt to beat enrage timers and handling the damage but it will be interesting...

[linkoynn]

10 mans always require more than 25 mans, in terms of min-maxing

[BRETTDESZORNS]

imo
on 10 man you shouldnt rely so much on your raidcomp,
so you can get some gear before going to 25 mans,
but 10 man atm might be a bit overtuned for this one

[Hrdlo]

10 mans always require more than 25 mans, in terms of min-maxing

This explains why almost all of the instances were beaten on 25man difficulty instead of 10man. Thanks for this insightful thought /s