Yeah this is a good build for gearing stages, but once you get some epices or some good weapons it falls off quickly. We dont really need the extra crit, the AP is nice but w/o Epidemic your frost rotation becomes annoying and you cant dump 3 OB's in a row so you lose that aspect.
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I can see you're not going to move off this, just so you know we aren't in your gear level so posting something endgame doesnt help at all here. I guess we stumbled into it, but w/o any haste I got the same % you did so I don't believe your posts are true sorry. You also probably have 40% crit in that gear.. maybe more. I'm not going to do you the favor of counting how much crit in total you get from your frost spells but I want you to take a look then chalk you up to being about 50% crit in Raids + the amount you get on spells as FDK. The extra crit is deminished greatly at those higher levels and you get way more out of BCB with ARP/Haste. Unless that server is having issues with BCB then the extra damage is worth more than the extra crit. Fire Mages even stop caring about crit at a certain level. I think it's 55%, but i'm not sure... so FDK's don't need more crit than anyone else. At that point Crit is basically soft capped and any extra damage is free dps.
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Yeah, you're right here, I just can't hold myself. Although you did talk about BCB as a great talent when gear starts to become better so I guess my comment has some little relevence.
I didn't get this, what did you stumble into, what % do you have w/o it and my post is quite real.
Wait wut? First off you don't get crit because of your frost spells (frost strike/howling blast/Icy touch). You get it because it's a good stat after one caps himself for hit, expertise and arp (this is for end-game ofc). Crit does not diminish, neither does it value, of course, this doesn't mean you should go gem crit in order to reach some absurd value (because strength is worth more before and after capping arp).
Fire mages stop caring about crit because going for spell power is much better, just the way we gem strength after capping arp, or if we can't arp we gem full strength. There is NO soft cap for crit. And as far as issues with BCB, do read my post on the previous page, it's proc rate is as it should be, the only thing that may be wrong (and I can't really test it well) would be the damage. And anyhow maxing your obliterate damage is your goal, not your autos.
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He refers to thing called "meele crit cap". Which was on retail servers. It is not working as intended on rag/deathwing, Lord migh have it fixed. (I consider it broken as well untill proven otherwise.)
Spoiler:Show
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I do believe reaching the glacing crit cap for autos would be quite impossible unless you actively go out of your way and grab every agi piece you can as well as gemming all the crit you can. Also unless I'm mistaken there is 1 talent (dark conviction) that is the only talent to give autos any crit chance. And again as far as I'm aware specials aren't subject to glancings, thus I deem his argument to be invalid.
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Yes, its autos only. A little bit off-topic, but how much crit do you have with full raid-buffs?
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Ehm depending on whether I use more than 1 agi piece and whether I use 2x havocs 1 or 0 anywhere between 40-45% (inc. all buffs).
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Yeah when i said in the other Quote that we stumbled into it, it's because I mentioned how well it scales later was all.
So what I meant here is if you scroll up to find my Screen Shot of my test on BCB with almost 0 haste on my gear and 0 armor penn it's 2.9% of my total damage. Your screen shot is 2.7% of your total damage, so either you're not hit/exp capped or it's bugged on that realm. I wasn't being rude calling you a liar or anything and if i've offended you sorry about that brotha. I'm just saying it scales very well with Arp/Haste and I have little to none of either and got the same % you got.
What I mean here is you have to have 40% crit unbuffed with your gear. Idk how great your gear is but in full BiS heroic loot you're almost 50% or something. Every plate class has a ton of crit. You also get 3% from http://wotlk.openwow.com/spell=51473 and 15% for http://wotlk.openwow.com/spell=59057 so that's 18% there and if you're at 40% crit let's say, then you get 5% from Feral alone much less agi or w/e else you get in raids. So now you're at 63% for Obliterate. Adding another 9% and getting to 72% with http://wotlk.openwow.com/spell=49491 is not equalled to a flat DPS Boost from http://wotlk.openwow.com/spell=49628. BCB is based on weapon damage, so the better the weapon the higher the damage. The more Armor Penn you have the harder it hits, the more Haste you have the more it scales and Haste at that point is worth more than Crit in general. Even w/o BCB Haste scales better with Armor Penn so this is free damage. Having extra crit when you're 60% is redundant.
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https://considerit1.files.wordpress....-items-exp.png
Without doing any research to how good this BiS list is or isn't this guy lists his BiS gearlist NON-HEROIC Expertise capped and he has 1072 crit rating. That's about 40% right there. So I might have been wrong about the 50% in BiS, but that's besides the point anyways. I'm not gonna re-edit to make myself seem smarter it's obvious i made that mistake. 40% is still high enough to reach a point where more Crit is being wasted over haste when you're arp capped. Even without BCB your dps values are Haste>Crit at Arp Cap. BCB is just free buffed damage.
When you're lower Ilvl and actually need the crit that's when Subversion could be used, or when the tanks have issues with your threat. I know I pull off my tanks quite often and for that reason I currently use Subversion.
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Yeah, it will definitely scale a lot better than on low gear, that's beyond any doubt certain. It's just that the scaling is not enough to actually tip the scales.
You do realise that the more you gear you get, the stronger your abilities and autos will become. Your damage proportions for different damage sources will all get higher and with that said, some will still do more damage (i.e. blood strike, icy touch, plagues trike) but it will be a smaller % overall because of how well 1 particular ability scales, in the case of frost death knights that ability is obliterate. I am not in any way insulted, but you aren't paying attention to what I write. I never said that BCB won't scale well with haste/arp, those are 2 stats that boost it more than anything else (crit/strength/agi).
Very true. It's not a flat dps increase, but it's a higher dps increase compared to BCB. And it's not a flat dps increase because of the double dice rolls on yellow crits. I'm more than certain that's what you meant, but a 9% increase, while not flat and, while not providing a directly greater dmg percentage in recount (compared to 1% per point of BCB), will still be a bigger increase at the end of the day.
A lot of your damage output is based on weapon damage :D. It's not just BCB, but also Obliterate, BS, FS, autos, PS. Of course it will hit harder overall with the more arp you have, arp boosts more than half of your damage sources (the actually important ones anyway). Yes haste will benefit BCB, never said otherwise. I'm not entirely sure if haste outscales crit, it's rather hard to deduce that, but arguing for the use of haste just because of this unreliable DPS source (BCB) is pointless. BCB suffers from a number of things like:
- Autos being subject to glancing blows and AA damage being spread into crit/glancing/hit. This alone means that it could proc from glacings 100% of the time (if it so wished) and it could proc from crits 100% of the time. Also when it procs it can proc on an OH glancing, which is just completely **** as that's very little damage, but then again it may not.
- DW autos having a hit cap of 27% (entirely unreachable in any sensible way), meaning you will miss a LOT of autos throughout a fight.
- It may proc from your MH and not from the OH and vice versa (cuz inc. damage from the two is separated). Also it's very possible for your MH to miss while the OH hits.
- It may proc while you have various procs up, like DBW taunka, STS, AV ring, tailor enchant, and it may not.
All in all, it's an extreme gamble. A gamble which is utterly pointless when subversion will just outshine it. Both in utility and damage. If there was a way I could take both (there is, but it's also kind of risky) I would.
P.S. Really, do read my previous page post to know what gear my char used, what stats he had, buffs and debuffs, etc.
P.S.2 Idk about lord, but on deathwing and rag the expertise cap for dodges is 22/22. So wif you see the 24/24 know that I am capped for dodges.
P.S.3 That link you gave on the gear choices. I've looked at that thread, the person hasn't even bothered to actually cap his arp and expertise, which is just horrid to look at. For some expertise is debatable, but arp? No, no way, 1400 rating or go home.Edited: January 12, 2016
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There's probably just alot more bugs on that realm with things not being added correctly then. 22exp cap... BCB not putting out any relevant numbers. Just stay your Subversion then. So far on Lord everything looks to be adding up, I hope it stays this way. There are some issues though, but none relevant here.
https://considerit1.files.wordpress....-items-exp.png
This link here is EXP/Yellow hit cap and almost spell hit capped. It's also like 99% ARP. So very close 1% is miniscule if he somehow found a way to put more str into the build.. mind you this gearset is also Non-Heroic. So one Heroic upgrade of the same Item will put you over cap. It has the stats for you on the side so Idk what you mean by not bothering to cap expertise. And if it was heroic then he'd be above the arp cap, this one just shows 1391/1400 arp prob bc it's the non heroic version. That's all.
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The proc rate is okay, based on the multiple tests I did today, if you want screens just tell me. On those I always arrived at a true proc rate of 30%, it was either slightly less or slightly more. As far as damage goes, even at 1k AA hits I could not observe BCB proccing from a melee crit, I do not know if this is a bug or is intentional, but I never observed it, however, for normal hits it was dead 50% (with both diseases up).
P.S. This is for Deathwing realm.
Actually that 1% is significant, but yeah since his gear is non-heroic that's hardly an issue in this private server.
Edit: http://www.wowhead.com/forums&topic=54152.2
The last comment in the topic is quite relevant I believe.Edited: January 12, 2016
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It's fine if it's procc rate is working, doesnt mean the damage is being calculated correctly is what I mean. To elaborate even further, it could be the 50% or w/e with diseases but is that damage being scaled properly with Armor Penn like it's supposed to? Things like that. I'm not on Deathwing to know for sure, but I do know BCB was quite a bit of dps for Unholy DK's geared with Shadowmourne. Before you state that it's Shadowmourne and it's a 2hander, just know Unholy DK's had the very minimal amount of ARP so scaling and Frost buffs even further benefit it. I don't have haste/arp, but if i pop a 15sec Potion of Speed my % goes from 3% or so to almost 5% of my damage for that 15 seconds. Though this isnt valid testing since 15 seconds of a dps means nothing unfortunatley. I'll just have to wait a while for ICC to be released to really argue this more.
I can't be bothered at all to read this when i realised he linked a 1.60 speed offhand while dual weilding. That alone just makes me think the guy isnt a valid source of information. Idc what kinds of math he's throwing out in that post. Maybe he should have done math on his offhand weapon speed, bc I bet a ilvl 200 slow weapon is more dps than a 213 1.60 speed weapon. Also, there are a ton of posts on how BCB IS valid and some i guess that state it isnt worth the points. Also he's linking Naxx gear and tests, and i've already said that early expac you wont get much from BCB and you should go Subversion.Edited: January 13, 2016
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OK, so first off we're talking about FDK pre-raid BiS for Lord's pre-Naxx pre-T7.5. You said it yourself - BCB is wep dmg based, ArPen based and Haste based. You don't have much from any of these at Naxx level. Honestly, Naxx is the tier with the worst possible plate gear available on WotLK. I wouldn't call the 9% crit from Subversion "redundant". Obliterate is an important part of your DPS, is your main RP gen, your FU rune dump, and your Rime proccer.
So in the end, getting back on topic, at pre-raid levels Subversion > BCB. At BiS levels BCB MAY be better, but even then - god, I ****ing hate FDKs without Subversion taking my aggro as tank in case they're not even in Top3 DPS.
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Even in bis gear it's still not. Frost strike double dipping right now gives inacurate displays of how much obliterate actually acounts for in terms of damage. Right now mine is about 30-35%, when frost strike is fixed (hopefully) it will be a lot more. Really there wasn't even a need for me to delve deep into what affects what. OB has a big crit multiplier as well as an incredibly strong scaling because of normalisation as well as threat of thassarian. Compared to that bcb is simply weaker, very likely, at any level of gear.
P.S. http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Blood-Caked_Blade
Patch 3.2.0 (04-Aug-2009): The damage from this talent is no longer normalized to weapon speed.
This makes BCB even less desirable compared to an increase in OB damage.Edited: January 13, 2016
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