1. Holy Paladin

    Guys I'm Planning on rolling a Holy Paladin, so hows the holy pally population in Horde n Alliance? Should I roll one or Try another class?
    Edited: January 19, 2016

  2. Long story short:

    There are a LOT of Holy Paladins. 80% of them suck. That's the main issue nowadays :P


  3. Pyro is on Ragnaros, and yes 99% of them are bad at the game. If you roll one and prove your worth then it wouldn't be hard to get into a guild of your choice. As for the other realms, not sure.

  4. Well, pretty much most paladins are bad because the class has the reputation of being the easiest one to play. It requires very little on the player side to perform at a mediocre level with a paladin. It's been like that since forever... not only for WotLK. So if you can actually play a paladin properly, people will notice you eventually and praise you.

  5. Disclaimer: I have no idea what happened here. I wanted to reply with a couple of quick thoughts and 5 beers later I ended up with this wall. I'd love to hear more examples of Paladin raid utility and common raiding mistakes from ya'll if you have any.
    __________________________________________________ _________________________________________________

    Ok here's my rant on what gives us that bad rep. Most new Paladins think they are good enough to raid with just their individual contribution abilities, i.e., "I'm here to DPS" or "I'm here to heal" and they completely forget about the support part. We were not designed to bring as much DPS to the raid as a Fury Warrior or a Hunter. What makes Paladins amazing raid members are our utility and support abilities which so many new Paladins simply ignore.
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    Problem: Paladin Blessings
    Let's take the most basic raid utility; Paladin raid buffs. A utility so amazing there are still rivers in the Amazon flowing with Horde tears from Vanilla WoW days because they had no Paladins. You can literally go water-tubing in Horde sadness because they had lame *** Shaman totems instead of Paladins blessings. Buffs that have always been so freaking amazing that back in BWL days (BWL is a 40-man Vanilla raid actually designed by Satan) back then buffs only lasted 5 minutes and had to be cast INDIVIDUALLY on 40 people with a 1.5 sec GCD and we still did them.

    Now what do we have to do to buff? Press a single damn button on a class to buff all members for 30 minutes. That's all. That's all we have to do yet think of the number of times raid leaders have just about had to reach through their screens to suck holy #^%k for a GBOK. We should never be asked once to buff in raids even if someone dies and needs rebuffs let alone asked over and over again throughout the raid.

    Solution: Get PallyPower
    A simple addon that warns you when a class is missing your assigned Paladin buff and allows you to buff them directly from addon interface. You'll know when buffs timers are almost up and you can even buff pets to make hunters love you.
    http://wow.curseforge.com/addons/pal...s/138-v3-2-14/

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    Problem: Paladin Auras
    I don't know how we do it but think of the number of times you are standing in front of Marrowgar before a pull with 4 paladins in the raid and somehow you have 7 Crusader Auras on. It's freaking amazing really. Every now and then you get a smart Paladin who's brings his Ret Aura because you know, Ret Paladin = Ret Aura ftw. Not only do you see Paladins with bad Auras in raids, but when you ask them to change Auras in raid chat it's like you're literally trying to have a conversation with a wall in ICC. You're actually more likely to get Marrowgar to compromise and stop using ColdFlames because by God we are pulling with Crusader Aura on. Is it critical to have Frost Resist? Not really but all it takes is a button press and an ounce of encounter awareness.

    Solution: Learn the Encounters
    Again, PallyPower helps you assign an Aura and warns you when you're not using it. More importantly, new Paladins need to learn that Auras are not supposed to be something you set at the beginning of the raid then forgotten about, they need to be adapted to the encounter.
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    Problem: Ignoring Raid Damage Mitigation Specs
    We have some pretty amazing raid-wide damage mitigating abilities that are pretty easy to spec into and on relatively short cooldowns. I'm talking about Divine Sacrifice and Aura Mastery. You don't see a lot of the new Ret Paladins for example even speccing into Aura Mastery, I guess because it's in the Holy tree? I rarely see Aura Mastery used in PUGs. You can't miss the spell animation of Aura Mastery, you glow like a Christmas tree for 6 seconds.

    Solution: Spec for More Utility
    The more utility we bring to the raid the less "bad" we appear. Here are a couple of Ret and Holy specs that incorporate Aura Mastery (in Ret) and Aura Mastery and Divine Sacrifice (in Holy). The Ret spec is one that I've been raiding with for a while and the Holy spec I got from Endrilliance's PVE Holy Guide which is an awesome read for new Paladins.

    Holy + Aura Mastery + Divine Sacrifice
    http://rpgworld.altervista.org/335/p...00000000000000

    Ret + Aura Mastery
    http://wotlk.openwow.com/talent#sVVzZVZVfbtbIuhdIfsu

    I have seen Ret specs with Divine Sacrifice but giving up Seals of the Pure is a HUGE DPS loss and I'd rather leave D-Sac for Holy and Prot Paladins.

    Here are a couple of macros that should help use D-Sac without killing yourself (it's bugged on Warmane and doesn't cancel until you look like a dead moron).

    #showtooltip Divine Sacrifice
    /run SendChatMessage(GetSpellLink("Divine Sacrifice").." used, 2 minute cooldown.","say")
    /cancelaura Divine Sacrifice
    /cast Divine Sacrifice


    #showtooltip Aura Mastery
    /run SendChatMessage(GetSpellLink("Aura Mastery").." used, 2 minute cooldown.","say")
    /cast Aura Mastery


    Here are a few examples of when it can be useful:

    - BQL Air Phase: Run to the middle, bubble, Hand of Sac a healer, pop DSac right before first Bloodbolt.
    - LK Phase 1.5 and 2.5: Help mitigate some Pain and Suffering shadow damage while raid spreads out on edge.
    - Sindy: It helps when you're tanking and you see a few people lagging behind on a Blistering Cold.
    - Festergut Pungent Blight: It's kinda helpful there.
    - VOA: Kinda helpful on Whiteouts if you're in a weaker PUG.

    Same thing can be said about Aura Master + Shadow Resist Aura on BQL or LK transition. Or, Frost Resist on Sindy.
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    Problem: Lack of Utility Spell Knowledge
    A lot of Paladins use 5 spells to level up then continue to use 5 spells while they raid. They never learn their utility spells.

    Solution: Learn to Use Hands and Secondary Abilities
    This can be solved by reading a few good Paladin guides and paying attention to spell tooltips in-game. Some good guides to start with are:

    Shar's Holy Paladin Compendium 3.3.5a (by Endrilliance): This really is an amazing guide to learn about Holy Paladin raiding, from basic Holy spells to utility spells like Hands with a ton of good detail. It's meant for Holy Paladins but the section on utility, Hands and addons is useful for all Paladins.
    http://forum.warmane.com/showthread.php?110908

    Retribution PvE 3.3.5a (by Lynea)
    http://forum.warmane.com/showthread.php?94180
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    Problem: Tunnel Visioning on a Single Role and Lack of Raid Awareness
    How many times have you seen this happen: You're in a 25-man TOC raid about to kill Anub'arak. Here comes two spider adds. Off-tank is slow picking them up because he's a bad Warrior tank LOL. Who gets aggro? A healer. Now you see the healer running around like a ******ed chicken until he dies. Meanwhile, there are 18 Ret Paladins in this raid all watching their Crusader Strike cooldown so they can smash it again. This is what I meant by Paladins not bringing the support and focusing on their "role."

    A lot of Paladins focus solely on their target; whether it's a Ret focusing on a boss or Holy on a Tank.

    Solution: Get a Raid UI and Some Macros

    You simply cannot be a great Paladin raider and fulfill your support responsibilities without some kind of raid UI. Here are the things your raid UI needs to show you at a minimum:

    - Who is about to die (HP)
    - Who has aggro (critical)
    - Who is high on threat (useful)
    - Who has a cleanseable debuff on them (Poison, Disease or Magic)
    - Who has Forbearance
    - Who is within range

    A good interface that does most of that right out of the box is Grid. Grid is very user friendly and pretty much ready to go right out of the box. Grid2 takes a little more setup but to me it has more customization and I like the extra functionality. I have Grid2 in my screenshot below.

    Grid: http://www.wowace.com/addons/grid/files/7184-r1318/
    Grid2: http://www.wowace.com/addons/grid2/f...e=51&sort=date

    Now that you have a UI that's showing you what's going on with your raid, you need a way to do something about it. You can do this in one of three ways:

    1. Be a Clicker...gasp!: You can easily click on a raid member to target them from your UI then click on the spell you want to use on them from one of your action bars. It works but it will require a couple of clicks and you're going to have to switch targets back and fourth which may slow down your own DPS.

    2. Use Mouseover Macros: With this method you never have to change targets. You simply hover your mouse over the raid member you want to aid and use a macro through a key binding. You never switch off your main target (the boss if you are Ret or the tank if you are Holy).

    Example 1:
    This macro allows you to cast LOH on anyone you see close to death in your UI. Preferably a Hunter's Pet for maximum effect - or better yet the main tank :D In my case, I have this macro bound to NUM5 then I have NUM5 bound to mouse button G9 but you can bind it to any key you like or even click it.

    #showtooltip Lay On Hands
    /cast [@mouseover,help] Lay On Hands


    Example 2: This macro is kinda cool for quick heals in 5 mans. If you have a friendly target it will cast a heal on your target. If you don't have a friendly target but you are hovering over a friendly player in your UI it will cast a heal on that player without switching targets. If you're neither targeting a friendly nor hovering over a friendly it will heal you.

    #showtooltip Flash of Light
    /use [@mouseover,help,nodead][help,nodead][@player] Flash of Light


    Example 3: I love this when tanking. Your UI shows you who has aggro like if a squishie got an add on them and you can simply taunt that mob off them without ever having to switch targets.

    #showtooltip Righteous Defense
    /cast [@mouseover,help] Righteous Defense


    Example 4: Same as heal macro above but with Sacred Shield. I am a Sacred Shield fanatic. It has to be on someone. An example of a cool feature I like in Grid2 is that I can set up a countdown timer that shows who has my Sacred Shield on them and how many seconds are left on it.

    #showtooltip Sacred Shield
    /use [@mouseover,help,nodead][help,nodead][@player] Sacred Shield

    3. Use Clique Addon: This addon works great with Grid and Grid2. It allows you to very simply bind spells directly from your spellbook to a mouse-click on your UI.

    http://wow.curseforge.com/addons/cli...ge=2&sort=name

    Example 1: My Clique is set up to cast Cleanse when I right-click over any name in my raid UI. So I never switch targets but I can Cleanse by hovering over name and right-clicking.

    Example 2: I use a few modified right mouse clicks for quick emergency casts. So in my UI, Alt+Right-Click on anyone in my UI casts a Hand of Protecion on Them. Ctrl+Right-Click casts Hand of Freedom. Ctrl+Alt+Right-Click casts Hand of Sacrifice. I deliberately wanted that last one a little harder to accidentally cast because you know...you can die.

    Example 3: With Clique, you can simply bind a spell from spellbook to a mouse click like above or you can run a macro on a mouse click. So in my UI, I like to let that person know that I just gave them a Hand of Salvation so they can save their own aggro dump or just keep DPSing if they don't have one. I run this macro when I Shift+Right-Click on someone in my UI:

    /script local n=UnitName("mouseover");if GetSpellCooldown("Hand of Salvation")==0 then SendChatMessage( GetSpellLink("Hand of Salvation").. " on "..n,"say") end;
    /cast [@mouseover,help] Hand of Salvation

    I use a combination of options 2 and 3 above so I can use my spells on raid members without switching targets.

    Now...you have a kickass UI that shows you who needs help and a bunch of options for getting them that help. Next, what kind of help can a Paladin provide? Here are some examples: (would love to get more ideas)

    - Healer gets aggro, you immediately see indication of aggro on Grid with a red square around name. Before mob even gets there you have a HOP on that healer.

    - Balance druid going ape $hit on DPS and your Grid UI shows they are high on threat with a yellow square around name. Before they pull aggro you throw them a Hand of Salvation. Omen can be useful here too to indicate who's high on threat list.

    - Here's another idea; even in Ret gear we make pretty good tanks for 12 seconds with a Hand of Reckoning and Divine Protection. When you see a tank drop, taunt and pray while the tank gets a battle rez. In 12 seconds a loose boss can one shot 5-6 raid members.

    - You see tank low and may not make it until next heal, A LOH can save the raid here. LOH doesn't apply Forbearance to the target unless the Paladin used it on himself. This was changed in Cata to apply Forbearance to all targets. (Need confirmation on Warmane for this)

    Reference: Patch 3.3.0 (08-Dec-2009): This ability will place Forbearance on the paladin if used on his or herself. It will not place Forbearance on others.

    - Another potential tank saver is your Hand of Sacrifice which can mitigate a ton of damage and could be the difference between a tank dropping or living through spike until next heal. 30% damage reduction for 12 seconds up to 100% of your max HP is a pretty big deal. Just make sure you have bubble ready when you do it.

    - Raid wide cleansing. It's not just a healer's job. With Clique and a UI it doesn't take but a GCD to potentially save the raid say if you cleansed a Raging Spirit's Soul Shriek off a tank. It's also very useful in BGs and in TOC Champion's encounter; all that fearing and stunning can be annoying.

    - You're on Sindy and you see tank running back for air phase all gimpy from Frost Breath, a Hand of Freedom is nice here.

    - Turn Evil can actually be pretty useful on some encounters like VDW when undead mobs start getting out of control. The same thing applies for Repentance. I have both of those abilities bound to hotkeys mostly for when I PVPed. Turn Evil is my favorite thing in the work when DK summons Gargoyle.

    - When all else fails and it's a wipe, try to get a Divine Intervention on a rezzer to save the raid the trouble of having to run back. DI is so rarely used in raids that most people who get it think their WoW froze and end up alt-F4ing...not really but it should be used more often. However, it's the only spell that I always click and never bind. I tank in some raids and the last thing I want to do is accidentally press the RO button.

    - For the love of God do the Resurrection quest.
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    Here are a couple of screenshots showing my Grid2 UI. You can see Grid2 in the center, I like to set it up to sort by classes so I get a better view of raid comp and I think it's easier to find people. You can see PallyPower to the right. It's kinda blocked by the Recount detail window, sorry, I don't usually have that or the loot window up but this is the only screenshot I already had saved.

    The second screenshot shows what Clique UI looks like during setup.



    Edited: January 21, 2016

  6. Disclaimer: I have no idea what happened here. I wanted to reply with a couple of quick thoughts and 5 beers later I ended up with this wall. I'd love to hear more examples of Paladin raid utility and common raiding mistakes from ya'll if you have any.
    It's a great post.

    My 5cents about "Divine Intervention":

    It removes all the debuffs from target (like that awful pp debuff, that ticks for 2 minutes on entire raid).
    It actually saves you money. (It counts as suicide, so you don't pay repair, only 50s for reagent).

  7. @ Valimus,
    The only remark I have is with your Ret spec. I'd highly recommend:
    http://wotlk.openwow.com/talent#sVGzZVZVfdxbIuhdIfsu
    or
    http://wotlk.openwow.com/talent#sVGzZVZVfbtbIuhdIfsu

    Why those changes? The extra healing from tier 2 Healing Light is just really good, the other 2 points in tier 2 can be placed in Divine intellect or Unyielding Faith. Those two points are inconsequential.
    And you either get SoC (for add packs, useless otherwise) or you get vindication (lower damage done on tanks). Personally I'd take Vindication over SoC any day, everyday.

  8. You should drink more beer more often, Valimus.

    Aura Mastery Ret is pretty much the bread and butter spec on WotLK and, honestly, any Ret playing something different than that is damn bad for me. Like the Redemption quest. :D

    Regarding the fluctuating points, Divine Intellect means a slightly higher mana pool, which means less mana problems (if you ever have any, that is). It also subsequently increases the mana gained by JotW and Divine Plea. Yeah, I know the difference is VEEEEERY small, Rifokelt, but on tier2 that's the only talent that's of any use in terms of DPS. Apart from that, you're right that Healing Light is pretty strong for 3 points, like, really damn strong.

    I think SoC is a clear winner here, honestly. I mean, it's way too good to pass up your best AoE seal for a "meh" 1/2 Vindication, which can be provided by other sources.


  9. I think SoC is a clear winner here, honestly. I mean, it's way too good to pass up your best AoE seal for a "meh" 1/2 Vindication, which can be provided by other sources.
    Why would you need AoE though? It's not like you use SoC on any imporant fight. Well some do, but that's just plain dps whoring. Also if anyone has mana issues just go for VDW hands. I think they were better anyhow (compared to fest ones).
    Edited: January 21, 2016

  10. Divine Int is what, 2 Int per talent point? Thats some super bad rates right there, if you have any mana issues you`re better off with a mailswap or two

  11. Well I think Valimus nailed it pretty well.

    It's sad that the most basic buffs, and yet some forget those, never mind the Hand spells those are alien to them..But yea valimus really said everything there.

  12. Why would you need AoE though? It's not like you use SoC on any imporant fight. Well some do, but that's just plain dps whoring. Also if anyone has mana issues just go for VDW hands. I think they were better anyhow (compared to fest ones).
    Well, you're right but SoC by itself for just 1 TP is just too good - you use it for trash clears, for HCs. Vindication is too weak for 1 point when any tank can already deliver it, except DKs.

    And yeah, Selaya - I guess you're right and I'll agree with you. 3/3 Healing Hands it is then.

    So in the end what we reach is this with the last two points being entirely personal preference between Pursuit of Justice's movement speed (the most common choice since it allows you to skip Tuskarr's Vitality for a DPS enchant on boots), Imp LoH's utility (good overall), Guardian's Favor's utility (situational), and Vindication's utility. Again, personally I think that Vindication is a waste for a Ret, unless both of your tanks are DKs, which would be pretty bad.

    By the way, not that it's not fun, but why are we discussing a Ret spec in a Holy thread, again? :D
    Edited: January 21, 2016

  13. I'm at work so replying on my phone which may not look pretty. I probably should be doing work now that I think of it. Thanks for the great feedback, guys. If I get a little more time, I may polish the post a little more, incorporate everyone's feedback and add another section on tips and tricks for min/maxing DPS then make it more of a guide in it's own post for newer Paladins.

    @Jendah: Thanks, man. I put a little bit of time into writing it. I completely agree about Divine Intervention. I forgot about that aspect of the spell. Who said Paladins can't decurse?! I'll make sure to update post with more DI info.

    @Rifokelt: Good points. I agree with you on Divine Intellect and Healing Light, it's probably time to update my Ret spec and switch to Healing Light. Not a huge difference either way but I think Healing Light takes the lead now. Up until recently, I still did a ton of 5-mans (was farming my 2500 Emblem achievement) and that seems like the only time I ever got low on mana. I guess I move SS around a bit more often and with the faster pace I'm less consistent with DP. I habitually refresh SS right before every pull which is way too often for 5-mans. Thanks for the feedback, dude.

    @taralej: I LOVE Seal of Command! We're on the same page here, assuming that you're not struggling to push through brand new content, and really most of us are just farming at this point, I think most raids would welcome faster trash clears over a slight reduction in damage taken by tank. Also I love SoC in 5-mans and when you fly into a horde raid outside ICC, pop wings and pray for Divine Storm procs and purple swirlies everywhere. It's the only time I PVP as Ret.

    @Rifokelt 2nd Post: I am a shameless DPS whore :( I pre-pot Haste Potions on Toravaon so I can pull aggro and die then blame the Warrior tank.

    @Selaya: When you mentioned it, I went back and looked into the numbers behind Divine Intellect more. You're right, it's pretty much worthless. We want to create the best min/max DPS spec so it seems like more Intellect = Spell Crit which is more DPS. But the numbers are so low it's practically worthless. What do Ret Paladins have for Intellect? 100? So 5/5 points in Divine Intellect give us +10 intellect like you said. What's that 10 extra intellect doing in terms of min/maxing? Considering it takes 166 Intellect to get 1% extra spell crit, 5/5 DI is gaining us 0.06% extra spell crit. A minor amount of spell crit that's useful for only two DPS spells as far as I know; Exorcism and Holy Wrath. Holy Wrath is very situational and on a long CD and Exorcism is 100% crit in ICC. 12% extra healing may not be a huge deal for a DPS class but it could be more handy in a bind than a negligable amount spell crit and 150 extra mana in the pool.

    @Lenthas: Thanks. I was on a roll with my griping last night lol.

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