I saw on a post that 10-man is harder than 25-man on this sever? Is this true? and if so how come?
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Member
10-man LORDAERON
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Field Medic Moderator
That sort of thing is subject to opinion, I suppose. If you're referring to Naxxramas, that is possible when you consider a "output numbers" vs. raid size ratio. However, the content has been nerfed as far as I know, so it may no longer be the case.
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Member
Thank you for the information.
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Banned
It's not just on Lordaeron, it's generally how math works. 10-mans are considered "harder" because if one person fails on 10-man it's a much more significant loss than on 25-man. Said otherwise, you'd have no problem carrying one DPS or Healer on 25-man, as long as the rest of the group knows what they're doing, but on 10-man it would put a much higher strain on the group as a whole.
If one of the 6 DPSers dies on 10-man, that would be a 16.67% DPS loss (considering they all perform equally); if it's one of the two healers, that's 50% of the healing (considering they both perform equally).
If one of the 18 DPSers dies on 25-man, that would only be a 5.56% DPS loss (considering they all perform equally); if it's one of the five healers, that's only 20% of the healing (considering they all perform equally).
If the top 2 DPSers of your 10-man group are melee (say, they're doing 4-5k DPS), with the rest far behind (say, they're doing 2-2.5k DPS), and they both die at the beginning of Patchwerk (due to not waiting for tank aggro or slacking/clueless healers), you're in for a very possible Enrage & wipe. If this happens on 25-man, you have 16 other DPSers who can make up for the loss.
Apart from that, while 25-mans usually have higher numbers in damage taken than 10-mans, this is offset by the synergy of the healers and buffs.
I hope I explained it clearly.Edited: February 11, 2016
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Member
Does anyone know what the exact figures are, or is the mystery part of the appeal?
Tuning in Wrath 10-mans on retail was much more relaxed than 25, even accounting for the difference between 10 and 25 gear, while this (originally) was not the case on Lordaeron. This is presumably what OP is actually asking about.
EDIT:
And 25-man raid progression is obviously much more difficult than 10-man in a general sense. Like obviously there's a reason that 10-man endbosses took dozens of attempts for WF and 25-man endbosses took hundreds. But that's a more vague assertion than the tuning stuff.Edited: February 12, 2016
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Field Medic Moderator
Obviously someone does. Perhaps those that tuned the content? I don't appreciate the gesture here. It's pretty clear that I'm a moderator, not a developer. But in case you haven't realized it yet, I'll put it plainly: I don't have access to development data.
Go learn some manners.
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Member
Wow. just wow. I'd be interested in the numbers as well, but I don't think he was implying anything other than someone that does theory-crafty post a reply. In my honest opinion that was a bit uncalled for. I realize you guys get a lot of flack, some from people that have no manners, but honestly, that didn't read like it was him being out of line at all to me.
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Field Medic Moderator
I don't need to justify myself. But knowing what he meant definitely helps having some context. It's not the first time he has attempted to tell off a moderator as if they were responsible for the content being the way that it is. Now, please, keep it on-topic.
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Banned
Just do your research. There's plenty of other sources of information, apart from wowhead where the info is updated for WoD. Check wowwiki, wowdb, gamepedia...
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Member
From experience of developing servers, 10 man is tuned to have 8 people, with 2 people in reserve to do what ever. 25 man is tuned to have ~19 people, having 6 people do whatever they want - and yes, I am saying that 10 man raids are tuned for 8 people, and 25 man raids are tuned for 19 people.
Finally, you could argue because of the raid size is much smaller in 10 man, then each player's weight is much higher than that in a 25 man raid.Edited: February 13, 2016
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Member
It's like that on the other servers too .
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Member
Plain and simple, it is easier to find ten good people, then 25. That is why, gear is better in 25 mans, and thus they are considered harder.
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Banned
I play a Healer and I'm "afraid" of the 10-mans because of the responsability. I play in Lordaeron and I don't have the VoA-10 achievement, I don't want to try it now.
I have done a lot of 25-mans, all have been PuGs. I'm "PvP" so I had never ever tried VoA before. Last week I got the VoA-25 achievement, in a PuG, we wiped twice, it was my fault, nobody noticed that it was JUST my fault.
I think that it's more difficult for one player to perform correctly in a 10-man raid.
Also, it may be harder for a Guild/Raid Leader to for a group of 25 players and make them play correctly, at the same time. Way harder if it is a random player trying to get a 25-man PuG... And get the achievement.
All this is general of course. I read here on Forum and in Global chat about Naxxramas bosses having more health or doing more damage or whatever... and I don't know if this was only on the 10 or 25 or if it was true blah blah blah , if this is what you're talking about, then I don't know.
But in general, yes, I think a 10-man raid is more difficult.
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Member
it is harder indeed as you don't have the same amount of Utility as you do on 25-man. for example; if you're in an encounter that require interrupting the boss, you'll have 5 interrupt in 10-man at best while on 25 you'll easily have 15 interrupt thus making 10-man raids a bit harder.
Edited: March 5, 2016
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Member
This is my first post but I'll make a reply to inform people that are interested in 10m raiding because for smaller guilds or guilds that are just starting out I believe this is important.
In fact 10 man Naxx is harder then the 25 man version for the average player. The main reason is not b.c there is fewer room for error b.c of a smaller raid size but because of the way 10 man is scaled. When the content was scaled here to be more 'hardcore' it was done so on 25m Naxx with a guild organizing the run (I believe they had heroic gear at the time, but I do not know the detail it would only make sense), the 25man boss encouters were scaled to their run either by giving the boss more hp or increasing the damage (usually both).
Now for 10man there was no PTR run, it was simply just scaled to 25 man which lead to the instance being poorly scaled compared to the rewards you receive. Now I have tested this its not just my own theory, bosses like Anub will hit for 28k-31k hp on plate geared tanks at 3.8k gs. Basicly it would be easier to clear a 25man with a full group of 3.5k (I don't like using gs but I will just so you understand the gearing diff, just means heroic geared) then it is to clear a 10man. At this point 10man Naxx has become something you clear when you get enough gear from 25man. This makes smaller guilds with the goal to raid useless b.c they cannot start raiding until they have a larger roster for 25man, I think this is a problem on the server that needs to be addressed a bit.
P.S (I didn't mention all the bugged bosses in 10m Naxx which makes it even more difficult to run it b.c it is a different topic)
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