u shudnt have any energy prob if u wait to envenom until after the envenom buff is gone . and during ur 1st rotation use envenom only when energy meter is at 45-50 energy.should make your energy thing easier and yes u need to be expertise capped.
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Please rename your thread to "my personal bis list for rogue pve envenom" as it is not accurate. Thank you.
Oh and the card not worth it, I just laughed very hard.
? Yeah you get 80% energy refunded but you still lost 20% energy+ the time when your envenom is not applied. You need the cap it's the most important stat with spell hit.
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what about this trinket : http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=43573
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At the current state no rogue runs 51/18/2, but instead go for 51/13/7. This makes the stats EP value greater for attack power than for haste. It should not be used until you get at least 600 haste rating from items alone (no gems, enhants etc.)
As for the original list as well, you might want to recalculate the items for their current (spec) EP values.
Just in case: Hit (cap) > Exp (cap) > AP > Haste > Crit > Hit > Arp.
In Lamen's terms what this means is maxing secondary stats like crit / haste over attack power is redundant. With this logic, here are the following corrections:
Rings (best in slot):
http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=45688
http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=37642
Wrist (best in slot):
http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=40186
If you redo the maths, these items will put you a lot closer to your caps (hit / exp) and give an overall increase in AP while losing useless hit rating that you already do not need. Furthermore, you will need only 2 sockets for expertise, 1 if you're a jewelcrafter. The DMF card is best in slot all the way until ToC 25man, which is a while away, therefore i would argue the "not worth it" remark.
As for lack of spreadsheets, they are really not necessary. Pen and paper are your friends :) The rest looks on point, good job.
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@Kishlolz1 Suggest something better? nope I dont think so (dmcG not worth it in terms of gold , its just as good as mirror is @ current gear) Also, i think its ****ing obvious its "my personal bis list" ...
@Spatter
( my setup is done considering you have 3 jc gems with expertise,engi cloak boots gloves ) Rest is epic agi gemmed/ap gemmed. Gives u exactly expcap/spellhitcap. Tell me what overall stats you get with your gear and I promise you they will be inferior cba screenshotting now you can do the math yourself if you care enough.
Pre toc obviously algalon 10/25man trinkets fury of five flights are better than card.
For reference im missing some pieces and easily doing 7.5k on patchwerk at the moment, gonna post logs next week if u are interested. Quach is missing 1 piece only and ive seen him do 7.7Edited: March 6, 2016
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tears is a very good trinket but will not be used atm .as of now only ap matters until 4.2gs or more than 4k ap.once u reach 4k ap u can think about haste trinks .as of now card and mirror are good if u are looking for pre raid bis.
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Ok first off, there is no need to be aggressive when someone is simply pointing out that this is in fact a "personal" BiS list. It is indeed tailored to yourself, but is just ever-so-slightly not correct. Nobody is mad, I will simply continue to explain my reasoning. First off, let's establish that both of us are using the same professions - Jewelcrafting / Engineering. This will make the grounds for this argument monumentally simple. We have already come to a conclusion that attack power is the stat we are trying to pump out all the while maintaining our hit and expertise caps. Without further waffle, let the enlightenment process commence:
Your BiS List:
Head: http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=40499 236 AP + 42 Exp + 6AP (socket)
Neck: http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=44664 152 AP + 32 AP (socket)
Shoulder: http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=40502 155 AP + 34 Exp (socket)
Back: http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=44664 168 AP
Chest: http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=40495 238 AP + 68 Exp (x2 socket)
Wrist: http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=39765 134 AP + 32 AP (socket)
Gloves: http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=40541 237 AP + 58 Hit
Belt: http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=40260 203 AP + 50 Hit + 32 AP (socket)
Legs: http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=40500 246 AP + 42 Hit + 64 AP (2x socket)
Boots: http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=40243 179 AP + 30 Exp + 16 AP (socket)
Ring: http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=40474 138 AP + 28 Hit
Ring: http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=40074 153 AP + 32 Hit
Trinket: http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=44253 90 AP
Trinket: http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=40431 No static AP
Weapon: http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=40386 134 AP + 37 Hit
Weapon: http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=39714 109 AP + 21 Hit
Ranged: http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=40385 108 AP
Total attack power: 2862
Total hit rating: 268
Total expertise: 174
My BiS list:
Head: http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=40499 236 AP + 42 Exp + 6AP (socket)
Neck: http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=44664 152 AP + 32 AP (socket)
Shoulder: http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=40502 155 AP + 68 AP (socket)
Back: http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=44664 168 AP
Chest: http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=40495 238 AP + 64 AP (2x socket)
Wrist: http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=40186 132 AP + 36 Hit + 38 Exp
Gloves: http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=40541 237 AP + 58 Hit
Belt: http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=40260 203 AP + 50 Hit + 32 AP (socket)
Legs: http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=40500 246 AP + 42 Hit + 68 AP / 34 Exp (2x socket)
Boots: http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=40243 179 AP + 30 Exp + 16 AP (socket)
Ring: http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=37642 149 AP + 33 Exp
Ring: http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=45688 149 AP
Trinket: http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=44253 90 AP
Trinket: http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=40431 No static AP
Weapon: http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=40386 134 AP + 37 Hit
Weapon: http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=39714 109 AP + 21 Hit
Ranged: http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=40385 108 AP
Total attack power: 2935
Total hit rating: 244
Total expertise: 177
To conclude this part, the results are as follows: By using the BiS list I proposed you will gain 73 attack power and lose 31 hit rating that you are currently overstacking. As you can see, the math has been done all along in fear of making a bold statement on the forums. I realize this is irrelevant to any casual players, but for a high-end raider this min-maxing is a vital part of pushing your maximum performance.
Part 2: The trinket debate
What is currently available to us:
http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=40431
http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=44255
http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=40256
http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=39257
http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=40371
http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=40684
http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=40531
http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=43573
Since haste and arp trinkets are out of the question, as well as on use trinkets for haste / AP, the first slot would of course go to http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=40431. http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=40684 is much worse than http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=44253 as there is only a 10 AP uptime difference, but the card proc lasts longer and is much easier to align with Berserking procs / pots / engineering gloves and racial abilities for maximum output. http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=40684 has crit - a stat that leaves more to be desired by itself, but it also has a chance to proc from a critical strike attack = very unreliable. http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=44253 wins.
What will be added in Ulduar:
http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=45286
http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=46038
http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=45931
http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=45609
http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=45522
As you may have assumed by now, our Ulduar BiS lists have already been concluded, once again leaving no space for arp proc trinkets, nor trinkets with abusurd amount of static hit rating. http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=40431 will be replaced by http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=45609. http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=46038 on paper sounds very appealing, but will still remain inferior to http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=44253 due to it's close to useless crit proc.
Part 3: The Patchwerk dick measuring contest:
The DPS on this boss varies from raid setup to simple RNG. As it stands right now, I am 6 items away from my BiS list. Having said that I managed to pull out 7.8k DPS one week, yet barely scramble past 7K the next week with the same exact set of gear. Our logs are of course available for the public, should you wish to browse them. No top tier player will ever be able to replicate the same exact number week after week as it is out of the player's control for some parts.
To draw a final conclusion. Please don't take this wall of text as me pummeling you into the ground, this was written with all the best intentions and uttermost respect for one's opinion. If you share my point of view, then perhaps this comment will help you to achieve even higher numbers. To be able to state this, countless hours were spent theorycrafting all possible outcomes and variations. Combine that with testing on PTR and you got crystalline information.
P.S Big shout out to Macknife <Infinity>, for sitting through this process with me and persevering through the challenges.
From <MEMORIES> with love :)
Kind Regards,
CapiiEdited: March 6, 2016
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Not to be rude but what kind of clowny post is this totally ignored crit / haste / and ArP Stat ? ROFL WHAT?
For example u wrote
Wrist: Sinner's Bindings 134 AP + 32 AP (socket)
Wrist: Thrusting Bands 132 AP + 36 Hit + 38 Exp
And who will write about the 41 crit rating and 24 haste rating of sinner bindings bro? What is this ??
Yes AP IS the best stat, t.e. it gives Most EP ( Equivalent point ) rating compared to other starts DOESNT MEAN other starts have 0 EP FOR EXAMPLE if 2 AP has 2 EP.. 1 Crit rating also has 1.87 EP and 1 haste rating has 1.79 EP and 1 Agi has 1.97 EP etc so you cant ignore them completely.
After comparing the 2 lists You have ignored : 84 crit rating and 28 haste rating from the topic's BiS List That is Equal to nearly : 159.6 ( taking crit as 1.9 ) + 49.56 ( Haste as 1.77 ) AP = 209.16 AP was ignored.
So overall > 209.16 - 73 ( the extra ap from ur list ) = 136.16 AP and the extra 31 hit as bonus for your white hits :D makes this BiS list better.
Mirror 1000 AP for 10 secs ( procs from crits yes but we have around 50 % crit in raids and we attack so fast that it will always proc when icd is over )http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=40684 is much worse than http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=44253 as there is only a 10 AP uptime difference, but the card proc lasts longer and is much easier to align with Berserking procs / pots / engineering gloves and racial abilities for maximum output. http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=40684 has crit - a stat that leaves more to be desired by itself, but it also has a chance to proc from a critical strike attack = very unreliable. http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=44253 wins.
Darkmoon card Greatness 300 agi for 15 secs > if we change it to 10 sec it means 450 agi for 10 sec that is compareable to 900 AP so in reality it gives 100 ap less on proc as compared to mirror > 84 crit passive vs 90 agi yea card is better in that by a bit so they are Almost as good as each other.
And did u really put hemoraging circle in your bis list?Edited: March 7, 2016
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If you assume that 2 AP = 2EP, we would all be going for haste / crit instead. 1 attack power is by far more valuable than that 1 point in haste / crit. And yes, I use that ring because it allows me to replace one 34 expertise gem to 68 attack power. Hence the overall increase in attack power over losing haste / crit.
The EP values for attack power is way higher while you are under 4k unbuffed. Losing 84 crit and 28 haste is worth it. Because your alternative is having dead weight hit rating just sit there and have less AP. And before your head exploads, I though the same way... Until I actually tested it. I am yet to see any rogue pull 7.8k on patch 5 items away from BiS, while also using 2 1.80 daggers and no OS 25 trinket.
I tested both sets, have you? Yours does less DPS, not by a lot, but still less. Try it out, maybe you'll be surprised as well.
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i think u didnt understand its 1 EP for 1 AP at this gear and 1 crit is around 1.87 while 1 agi = 1.97 ( but i am sure u know we get double amount of AP as compared to other stats from gems for example 40 ap compare to 20 crit / haste / agi gem ) so 40 AP = 40 EP , and 20 agi = 39.4 EP , 20 crit = 37.4 EP etc So OFC AP IS BEST STAT But other stats are not worthless they have good enough value to be considered too you cant count them as 0 value )
so you cant ignore these stats they are behind AP but not far behind to be ignored i dont know what logic u used to count them as 0 value.
Also i dont see your 7.8 k dps anywhere i saw all your logs you are doing around 6.4 - 6.5 k dps and its really mediocre dps.Edited: March 7, 2016
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You most likely noticed, the patch kill missing from one of the logs. I am pretty sure I can fish up a screenshot tomorrow. And yes, can't deny that dps. That is before a drastic change up in gear. And as I said, with 5 pieces missing it will only improve. For example, here's a screenshot of VoA 25 pug tonight:
This is after the changes have been made. If it is impossible to see, it's at 7.1k+. That is no including flask, food, pots, bombs and overall not the greatest setup a guy can ask for. Lusted at 79%, shaman woke up. Also keep in mind, you do not stand still during this encounter.
On a personal level, it was a massive improvement from upgrading to what at first glance appears like total garbage. And with these items I have already lost the stats that you said I ignored. I didn't ignore them at all, I just started valuing them at a lesser EP margin. If what you're saying was 100% true I should have technically lost DPS.
And since PTR has no blue gems / professions, I am expecting even higher numbers with the last 5 itemss I have to get, items that are pretty crucial I might add.Edited: March 7, 2016
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I saw dps of all weeks bro u are doing constantly around 6.4 to 6.5 k and not even anywhere near 7k so idk what 7.8 k you have dreamed about ( it must have been 6.8 k which u thought as 7.8 ) there is fluctuation possibility ofc but not so drastic and 7k is fine on short fight like this but its nothing amazing, please notice that i am not flaming i just dont want people to spam wrong information here.
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I didn't try to offend you before, some people asked for my bis list i did it, thats all this post was supposed to be.
After reading your arguments and post and your "theorycrafting" "math" or whatever I can just say
you have no clue what youre talking about and youre just confusing people who came here for information.
Having said that, I am always open to discussions suggestions etc I am not perfect I may be wrong I may have missed something but I am pretty confident your logic is flawed and hence all your conclusions are wrong. I think quach explained to you the fundamentals of rogue gear theorycrafting , so I dont think I have to add anything moreEdited: March 7, 2016
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03/02/15
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/y...?s=6978&e=7226
6235 DPS
10/02/15
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/n...?s=8638&e=8867
6953 DPS
17/02/15
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/z...?s=3917&e=4185
6554 DPS
24/02/15
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/f...um/damageDone/
Patchwerk parse missing.
02/03/15
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/q...?s=2216&e=2444
6577 DPS
So here's what happened. That starting date was when I was 6 pieces off my BiS list and exactly the point where I made the changes. I don't quite know weather I was blessed by RNGsus or what. But even from this, a fluctuation of DPS is clearly visible. For next reset I will start with 5 pieces missing, meaning that last raid I got 1 piece. And I don't have any illusions in my head, not do I really have a reason to lie about something that really did happen. What good would it do me?
Also, could I see your logs? Couldn't quite locate them.Edited: March 7, 2016
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Check PM, usually we do around 7.4 to 7.5k ( since our gear upgrades ) the one i PM'ed you was my most recent kill ( i m just missing OS Trink now )
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