1. Another thing. How useful is the Divinity talent? How useful it is percentage-wise and most importantly does it increase survivability ?

  2. It really depends on what you're tanking. If you're tanking something that can kill you in 2-3 hits, it's not going to be that helpful. If you're off-tanking and/or taking damage that is much more staggered, it will be much more beneficial for trickle heals (mostly HOTs) and other non-nuke heals. It also helps benefit any Valanyr bubbles you may receive as well.

  3. Divinity is a very good survivability talent.

    A paladin cannot die in 2 hits, ever, unless healers are AFK or unless you failed to use a CD where you needed to. 3 hits without getting topped in between is the bare minimum for you to die. Most bosses (except LK under Soul Reaper, Algalon and Festergut with 1-3 stack) have a 1.8 attack speed. This means you can only die in 3.6s or more, but any decent healer setup will have reacted and healed you with at least 2 Holy Light + 1 medium to small off heal (LHW, GH, Flash, PoM, ES, hots, ...). That's anywhere between 25k to 50k healing. Divinity will account for 1.2k up to 2.4k healing. Therefore divinity EHP is equivalent to upwards of 1.2k HP.

    Imho, divinity EPH is actually way above that: unless you are forgetting a cooldown or your healers are seriously AFK you'll need to take 4 or 5 hits in a row to die as paladin (thanks to the overpowered Ardent Defender talent and on Icecrown where ICC is coming with the 30% zone buff I can't imagine a paladin tank dying ever) so Divinity EHP would therefore amount to anywhere upwards of 6k.

    TL;DR; Divinity is a very good (1.2k - 6k EHP) talent, but you have to sacrifice a lot of threat generation to pick it.

  4. https://wotlk.evowow.com/?talent#sVh...usIufdL:pjGcmz

    This is the spec you want to get if you want to have most survival and most support to the raid and the other tank (if you have high expertise with gear and talents alone, you can use the 8% chance increase to hit taunts glyph).

    Divinity wont help you, ever. Any talent point put into it is a complete waste.

    Before someone says its better than deflection, 4% more chance to completely avoid getting hit is more valuable than 4% heal increase since you are getting 10-30k heals where 4% is 400-1200 extra healing, which at that point wont ever save your life.
    Edited: November 13, 2018

  5. A paladin cannot die in 2 hits, ever
    _EVER_?
    That's a very bold statement.

    unless healers are AFK or unless you failed to use a CD where you needed to.
    "unless xyz"
    I mean, if you add that to the statement, then anything's possible. "We'll never send a person into space unless we send a monkey first to test it."

    "You will never ever die unless your healers go AFK or run out of mana or etc"
    Except, that's not how we calculate EHP.

    3 hits without getting topped in between is the bare minimum for you to die. Most bosses (except LK under Soul Reaper, Algalon and Festergut with 1-3 stack) have a 1.8 attack speed. This means you can only die in 3.6s or more
    Whoosh.
    It's almost as though I was using an expression to project an idea, not necessarily providing exact numbers. I had assumed those reading had the 'smarts' to understand the logic behind it.

    but any decent healer setup will have reacted and healed you with at least 2 Holy Light + 1 medium to small off heal (LHW, GH, Flash, PoM, ES, hots, ...).
    See, here's the thing about tank healers like Holydins...
    They don't react. They spam. Why do you think that is? If it wasn't already obvious, that's because the bosses in question don't give you time to "react". You have to already be aware of damage incoming and be prepared for it. Playing a healer strictly reactively, especially on a tank who is actively tanking something, is the mark of an AWFUL healer.

    That's anywhere between 25k to 50k healing. Divinity will account for 1.2k up to 2.4k healing. Therefore divinity EHP is equivalent to upwards of 1.2k HP.
    Unless the wielder has a Valanyr proc, that overhealing amounts to exactly that: overhealing. Any and all overhealing that does not have some sort of beneficiary link a Valanyr proc, Divine Aegis, Inspiration proc, etc. is a pure waste. Which is why the reference to trickle healing (HOTS) was made, because trickle heals are significantly less likely to overheal.

    Imho, divinity EPH is actually way above that:
    Do you know what the EHP provided by an overheal is? Nil.

    unless you are forgetting a cooldown or your healers are seriously AFK you'll need to take 4 or 5 hits in a row to die as paladin (thanks to the overpowered Ardent Defender talent and on Icecrown where ICC is coming with the 30% zone buff I can't imagine a paladin tank dying ever) so Divinity EHP would therefore amount to anywhere upwards of 6k.

    TL;DR; Divinity is a very good (1.2k - 6k EHP) talent, but you have to sacrifice a lot of threat generation to pick it.
    Except that is not how EHP works. The way you're arguing here is that basically the EHP of a tank is fine if they're half naked, but since they can survive a one-shot, you can have 20 healers to spam heals on them and they will never die, and because of that Divinity is a good talent and worth taking.
    Absolutely not.


    And I should have probably addressed this with the very first quote, but in case you hadn't noticed, this is a Paladin guide. Not a debate thread over semantics and details for BIS characters (that does have its place, but that is not the sole purpose of the thread). If you're going to present your argument as though everything before BIS is irrelevant and/or doesn't exist, you may as well not post at all.

  6. Divinity wont help you, ever. Any talent point put into it is a complete waste.
    /slap
    Divinity is a good investment for improving the quality of your ehp. It makes it so that w/e heal you get is closer to topping you off, more easily. Whether it's worth dumping threat points for divinity is another matter entirely. For the end-game I agree with NainVert that it's the best course of action.
    Edited: November 13, 2018

  7. To the attention of Mercy:
    Spoiler: Show
    I'm a currently a Lordaeron protection Paladin, near BiS, who happens to have tanked around 10 LK 10HC kills on Lordaeron server. No one is is any close to that number of kills as tank. No one else is any close to the time we spent progressing it with an undergeared group. And I have never been 2 hit killed. By Lich King 10HC, on Lordearon, with my 52k-56k HP. Or, at least, I have not been 2 hit killed without making stupid mistakes. And while I'm at it, I already tanked LoD on said server, as 2 paladin tanks with 56k and 60k HP respectively, and neither of us died.

    Now before you start trashtalking the **** out of my post without starting to read it, note the next sentence, it's big and bold.

    If you remove the healers from a tanking discussion, you can instantly quit tanking. You will never kill a boss without healers taking care of you.

    Any tanking guide that doesn't mention the synergy that must exists between tanks and healers cannot be furthest from the reality of suriving an encouter as a tank.

    Please note that all that follow holds for any encounter of which your gear match the encounter requirements, aka Uldar gear in ToC, ToC gear in ToGC and so on. This discussion is not limited to BiS tanks, even if I'll illustrate my words with endgame content, because that's the content that I'm currently experiencing on Lordaeron.

    So, for the sake of giving good indsight to protection paladin tank, any guide should assume that said tanks are accompanied by healer that are good enough for the boss in question. They must posses:
    • A decent knowledge of their healing class and,
    • A decent knowledge of the boss mechanics.
    If your healers do not meet these requirements, you cannot expect to defeat the encounter unless you are overgearing it. You'll end up being a better tank if you explain the fights mechanics first and give them the necessary amount of pulls to get roughly familiar with the fights mechanics.

    As protection paladin tank, accompanied with said decent healers, it's up to you to not make the mistakes that will get you killed. Such mistakes include, but are not limited to:
    • Turning your back to the boss,
    • Running out of range of your healers,
    • Getting out of LoS of your healers,
    • Not correctly using a cooldown when you are supposed to,
    • Forgetting tank swaps,
    • Forgetting to asking external cooldowns,
    • Forgetting to warn your healers about the fact that you cannot meet the cooldowns requirements because they are not yet available,
    • ...
    The list of mistakes you have to avoid may seem long but the only actual entry that matters is cooldown usage and tank swaps. All the rest, such as outranging, line-of-sight, is almost never possible.

    If such bold mistakes are not made, you are a Protection Paladin tank.

    Now lets analyze what could be killing you:

    A tank may only die if the amount of damage taken exceed the amount of healing he receives.

    There are two cases for damage received:
    • One single hit, higher than your total health : either you are not geared enough for the encounter or you forgot to use a cooldown. There is no bosses that I know of which can deal such high amount of damage, to the exception of enraged bosses like Icehowl, (but this is a mechanics failure), Algalon's Big Bang (but if you are soaking it you are supposed to meet the ability with strong enough cooldowns and it's not advised to soak as main tank anyway), and a few other exceptions that would fall into the category of personal fail (void zones, Heigan dance, ...). Irrelevant for here.
    • Successive hits : sustained damage that exceeds what the healers are able to heal. This is where Divinity comes in. And for any good Protection Paladin, this is the only way to die.

    From these considerations, the hardest known hitter is the Lich King 10 HC by the middle of phase one, throwing 25-35k hits on your face. (By the end of phase one you are perfectly aligning cooldowns else you wil not get through that phase). Another remarkably strong hitter is Sidragosa 25HC, hitting you from 30k-35k, there there are 6 healers on this encounter.

    In the case of Lich King 10HC, for a sufficiently geared tank, from a 35k hit will get down to 20k and will easily get healed back to from things like PoM, ES, HW, HL, Hots, Judgement, Divine Storm, Ansestral Awakening that healers are spamming on you, so you'll easily reach over the 31k HP needed for you to survive the next 35k hit (because of the 20% damage reduction of Ardent Defender, a 35k hit on a 31k HP Paladin shouldn't kill him). Therefore

    You cannot die in less that 3 successive hits during which the healers do not manage to top you.

    And this fact is not up to discussion. 3 hits take 3.6s for most bosses (exceptions in a previous post), and 3.6 seconds is a bare minimum of 25k-50k healing on your face. Obvioulsy, none of this healing overhealing, if it were, you'd be topped and wouldn't die. Divinity here accounts of anyhere between 1.2-2.5k healing and as such:

    When taking 3 hits in a row, a Paladin tank with 5/5 Divinity behaves as if he had an extra 1.2-2.5k HP to start with and 0/5 Divinity. Call this the way you want, that's how you would calculate the EHP-equivalent of 5/5 Divinity. And this estimate is on the very low side. Trust me. Especially if you play on Icecrown with the 30% zone buff of ICC.

    Spoiler: Show
    Now, be like Mercy and discard that. For sure I'm a bad tank, for sure I'm a bad raid leader, for sure I'm a bad theorycrafter and for sure everyone is killing LK 10 & 25HC on Lordearon on a weekly basis.


    TL;DR: Once you have picked up all necessary talents, Divinity is your best survivability choice.

    For the record, my current Lordaeron Sindragosa, Halion and LK 10HC/25HC talent pickup is for here, while my generic ICC25HC build would be that.

    @Rifokelt: :)
    Edited: November 14, 2018

  8. Why would u spec into SoC?
    Why would u spec 2/2 into HoJ?
    Conviction, really?

    If nothing else, the spec with Divinity should look like this:
    https://wotlk.evowow.com/?talent#sVh...usIdfdx:pkjmcz
    Or
    https://wotlk.evowow.com/?talent#sVh...MusIufd:pkjmcz

    My point was simply that, at the point where those 5% extra healing wont matter, aka wont constantly save you from death, its better to go for some extra avoidance (cos those 5% will end up being simply overhealing and waste of talrnt points).
    Same goes for shoulder enchant, at bis, i would rather go for avoidance than 30 extra stamina on shoulders, cos those 300hp wont save you, while completely avoiding a hit might, especialy if healers are slow in some situations.
    Also, why would u want a 2min 20% dmg reduction CD, right?

    I really wish you didnt link those specs. :))))))))))))))

    P.S. U might aswell use Last Word if you think that Divinity is good, or lets say better than other talent choices, if you alrdy dont have it equiped.

    @Rifokelp: whelp :'(

  9. To the attention of Mercy:
    [spoiler] I'm a currently a Lordaeron protection Paladin, near BiS, who happens to have tanked around 10 LK 10HC kills on Lordaeron server. No one is is any close to that number of kills as tank. No one else is any close to the time we spent progressing it with an undergeared group. And I have never been 2 hit killed. By Lich King 10HC, on Lordearon, with my 52k-56k HP. Or, at least, I have not been 2 hit killed without making stupid mistakes. And while I'm at it, I already tanked LoD on said server, as 2 paladin tanks with 56k and 60k HP respectively, and neither of us died.
    Ego is not pertinent to the discussion. I'd break it down for you, but...

    Now before you start trashtalking the **** out of my post without starting to read it, note the next sentence, it's big and bold.
    If you want to go the route of "I'm right and anyone who disagrees is personally attacking me", then I'm just not going to waste my time.

  10. Seal of Command: Valkyr Cleave damage on HC LK, minor one, sure but good one. Remember, we are playing without zone buff in ICC, any Valkyr damage is more than welcome. And don't my SoV can be aoe placed by Hammer, cause yes it can, but good luck getting 3 Valkyrs + 1 LK at 5 stacks with 1 Hammer every 6sec while tracking which Valkyr you're supposed to stun next.

    2/2 Hammer of Justice : this is not exactly needed, but 1/2 is required for Valkyr stuns. Now, 2/2 also gives you one stun on every beast wave on DBS, it's very welcome. On Bane, also, you may not always be able to do your stun 1st, sometimes it's going to be be the first, sometimes the 2nd one, sometimes even a bit later*. Taking 2/2 makes you able to stun anytime because your HoJ cooldown becomes 15sec lower than Valkyrs waves.
    (*) the reason if that if it's not my turn to tank the Soul Reaper, I'll be at maximum taunt range in the even taunt 1 melee swing will save the other tank and that means I can't be stunning a Valkyr for these 5seconds because LK and the Valkyrs are stacker for maximum cleave. 2/2 is a convenience pickup that allows me to potentially save my offtank while still maintaining a stun every wave no matter what.

    [*] Linking specs without 5/5 in the parry talent and 5/5 in the dodge talent is .. a bad idea. Those talents are better than Divinity. If you seek survivability from talent points, my message is that Divinity is your last option. Read the TL;DR of my last post please "Once you have picked up all necessary talents".

    [*] Linking a spec without attack power reduction (aka, Vindication) makes you rely on having a Warrior to demo shout for you, or having the other tank do it for you, or if you go and offtank Shamblings, you'll get a lot more damage from them than a Vindication spec'ed Paladin. Not having Vindication makes you take extra damage when you are tanking a non-active prince on the BPC encounter.

    Anyway, in my opinion, that "Paragon" spec with Aura Mastery and Improved Lay on Hands is not really a viable offtanking spec. It's a 10 years old spec, and the way we play the game has gone past its need. And for warmane, Aura Mastery is currently not working the way it should, or if it's working the way its should then Aura Mastery usage is a serious pain in the butt, and for another, that Lay on Hand cooldown is a once per fight thing, taunting one melee attack off the main tank has the "same" efficiency and his a thing you can do every Soul Reaper ; removing a lethal 35k melee swing on the other tank is much better than providing him with a weak 20% physical damage reduction (by the way, does it stack over Inspiration/Ancestral or does it only replace it? Never trye to care about that, would be nice to know.)

    Also the glyph of salvation is a double sided glyph, using HoSalv on oneself for its full duration will cause an unexpect, unprepared tank switch that may do you more bad than good. That's one of the reason I do not use it, the second reason being the massive threat drop from missing 10 expertise, which is really a no-go for main tanks. (And not taking Divine Strength is a no-go for main tank either). If I know I may not survive, I'll be better off calling my little friends the hunter for an awesome 6 seconds fancy tanking. Not only my threat is not reduced, but healers get a free 6sec to prioritize whatever else they need to, knowing their tank is not going to take the single bit of damage. And on top of that, loosing the expertize, while fighting dragons, is a bad thing (aka, parry haste. I say no to 1.25s swing timers.)

    And while you mention Last Word... I use it... as a threat weapon. Yes threat, it's the highest Strength weapon in the game, and coupled with the 245 STR libram while using SoV, you gain a wooping 315(x1.15x1.10) Str and associated Block Value and Spellpower, I call that a nice thing. Otherwise, your best tanking weapon is HC LK one and it provides what, 65? 75? strength? Of course, you loose a crapload of avoidance (I'd say, around 5%) and I'll not use such weapon/libram one a challenging fight, I'll perfer avoidance : Mithrios and Eternal Tower or Sacred Shield.

    Concerning Conviction, tell me where I'd put the two points need to reach Crusade. And if you tell me Crusade, then I'm telling you that's you'd rather thing twice. When a tank needs to move fast, he uses rocket boots. the rest of the time, you don't want to move a boss faster than your MDPS can follow it. Funny thing, this guide here doesn't even mention Engineering being the best tanking profession (by far).

    Anyway, next time you criticize a talent tree, please argue. Cause any tank not having 2/2 Vindication, or not taking 2/2 HoJ in ICC are just the kind of tanks I don't want to deal with in my raids. Or those not taking the Judgement of the Just, "dk provides" kind of thing...

    Anyway, since you guys keep missing it, I'll repost:

    TL;DR: Once you have picked up all necessary talents, Divinity is your best survivability choice.

    (And I don't know why you started to talk about the shoulder enchants? There's a point where even if Stamina is better than Avoidance, a little Stamina is not as good as a lot of Avoidance. We're not here discussing those things, right? We were originally discussing Divinity,
    Spoiler: Show
    before someone trashout an answer without providing any actual argument, while completely missing the point of what was written. And man, that last answer, it had no place here. Would have been better to send me a private message over answering here. But well.

  11. Vindication overrides other AP reductions. It brings just as much AP reduction as all the other improved AP reductions but it has one extreme downside which is not being 100% up unlike all the other ones. That in and of itself makes it a bad investment for 25 mans as all warriors can provide the improved version with almost no dps loss (unbridled wrath points, lmao), bear tanks provide the improved version and for shamblings you can have a wlock place it if you're that concerned about dying to them. Chances are the unholy will be giving 13% magic debuff via pestilence to them anyway.

    The "paragon" spec is the best OT spec. It removes all the threat talents you'd normally take and puts points into external cooldowns. It doesn't matter in the slightest whether they can be used once per fight, or once per 2 fights. AM works properly and if used correctly the jump from 130 res to 260 res is a bit more than 10% DR on average vs the appropriate magic type.

    You don't necessarily need the 10 expertise. It really depends on what kind of role you're assigned to. If you're MT-ing you're incredibly unlikely to lose 1st spot on threat meters with rogues and hunters. If you're off-tanking LK there's no way to lose shamblings p1 and as for transitions mass taunting preemptively is a thing, having rogues and hunters is a thing and using a threat weapon with strength libram (which you yourself mentioned) is a thing. Generally speaking you can, in a well built raid, drop the 10 exeprtise glyph when fighting non-dragons. In such cases, and if you're farming heroic LK then you definitely have a well built group, you can drop that glyph for extra survivability.

    And lastly, Divine strength is by no means a must have. It can be dropped in favor of better survivability options.
    Edited: November 15, 2018

  12. If you fail to see how those ret talents wont help you the slightest (exept the 5% parry talent) and that 15% movement speed on top of rocket boots is better than 2% crit we have nothing to talk about.

    And il repeat it once again, if 99% of the times Divinity will be simply an overheal, not saving ur *** at all, its a waste of talents.
    If there is a situation, which happens often btw, in which you are dropped to 10k HP Healed up to 40k, and droped down to 1k HP, and than topped to 100%, than Divinitys 5% are worth (that might happen 1 time in a milion, so u might just aswell die there or get the ardent proc used). Other than that, waste of talent points if you ask me since all those extra heals wont matter duo to the fact that heals and dmg you take is 20-50k strong, where 5% wont make a diference.

    The only job tank has is to survive and keep aggro on him. On top of that, Seal of Command dmg is so small, nothing you do will help, just get better raid comp or overall dps if valks are the problem.
    The AM and Imp Lay on Hands spec is way better for the job u applyed which is tanking, not dpsing valks.

    These are prot paladin main talents:
    https://wotlk.evowow.com/?talent#sVGzMZV0tAbuMusIkfd
    If you think those 7 points have no better choices than divinity, than sure, go for it.
    This should be your spec at all times if you ask me:
    https://wotlk.evowow.com/?talent#sVG...usIdfdx:pkGcmz
    For overall all boss fights.
    (The main trade for Divinity should always be 15% strength which alone reduces ur BV and EH in a way, so if u want to get highest amount of EH only logical choice should be avoidance which is not worth if you ask me, especialy if you are close to bis where EH is alrdy high enough, or simply remove 5 TPS talents on top of ImpHoJ and get most survival talents, something like this:
    https://wotlk.evowow.com/?talent#sVhdMZE0tAbuMzsIkfdx
    Where you can trade Imp Devo Aura in case your Hpala or other paladin tank has it for some TPS increase in wep dmg increase or spell power dmg increase)

    As for Last Word and ur aggro reasons, again, no.
    That Strength increase is nothing in comparison to weapon dmg you lose (read how Hammer of Right works).

    If you need extra 10% healing and there is no other way for you to survive, than id say yes, go Last Word and Divinity, but you will sacrifice a lot of tps for it. Other than that, getting some minor extra healing for tps that will end up being simply an overheal, stop.
    Edited: November 15, 2018

  13. Spoiler: Show
    And il repeat it once again, if 99% of the times Divinity will be simply an overheal, not saving ur *** at all, its a waste of talents.
    If there is a situation, which happens often btw, in which you are dropped to 10k HP Healed up to 40k, and droped down to 1k HP, and than topped to 100%, than Divinitys 5% are worth (that might happen 1 time in a milion, so u might just aswell die there or get the ardent proc used). Other than that, waste of talent points if you ask me since all those extra heals wont matter duo to the fact that heals and dmg you take is 20-50k strong, where 5% wont make a diference.

    As for Last Word and ur aggro reasons, again, no.
    That Strength increase is nothing in comparison to weapon dmg you lose (read how Hammer of Right works).

    If you need extra 10% healing and there is no other way for you to survive, than id say yes, go Last Word and Divinity, but you will sacrifice a lot of tps for it. Other than that, getting some minor extra healing for tps that will end up being simply an overheal, stop.


    Regardless of who heals you the healing you receive will be divided into two parts. Effective and overheal. That 5% from Divinity will play a role in both. It's useful even if overhealed if the one overhealing you has val'anyr. It doesn't need to "save" you constantly in order to be useful. In fact it doesn't need to "save" you at all. So long as it makes healing you easier and quicker, that by itself is enough. Literally any amount of effective healing is just that, effective. Whether it's a single point of health or 100k. As long as the talent helps your healers in doing the bare minimum required of them to keep your tank alive for the next hit then it's not a waste talent.

    You said yourself that a tank's job is to survive and keep aggro. To that end using Last Word and/or Divinity helps considerably with the former, assuming the threat loss can be handled by external threat redirection, salvations, personal threat dropping abilities, etc. They aren't minor improvements to the healing you take.
    Edited: November 15, 2018

  14. Vindication overrides other AP reductions.
    Wrong. Vindication overrides SHORTER duration or WEAKER attack power reduction debuffs.
    not being 100% up
    Wrong. Vindication uptime has been fixed. It is now well over 95%.
    Vindication uptime from World of Log report for our guild's main run, 2 weeks ago:
    Vindication 95.4 % (Marrow) (Downtime due to Bone Storm)
    Vindication 99.0 % (DBS) (No Downtime)
    Vindication 92.2 % (Rotface) (Downtime for over 20s on the pull, clueless)
    Vindication 84.0 % (BQL) (Compare to Conseration uptime: 82.7%)
    And on LK pulls, where we used Druid/Paladin as a tanking setup, there is never a single time where Demoralizing Roar drops due to Vindication replacing it: vindication never override Demoralizing Roar: 26 Demoralizing Roar cast for 552.1s uptime means that the average Demoralizing Roar duration was 26 seconds.

    Whenever you are mentioning Divinity, you seem to forget that the only times when you die is when you are not full HP when the boss swing/spell happens. And any time that happens, any time you are dying, Divinity extra 5% healing would have kicked in and would have provided extra healing that might have saved you ***. Every time you are full HP, you are not going to die. Stop discussing overhealing nonsense, there is no overhealing happening when you die. Any 5% heal increase in such cases is a step towards you surviving the next hit. Period.

    That Strength increase is nothing in comparison to weapon dmg you lose (read how Hammer of Right works).
    Right-ish. 1 Strength gives you 2 AP which increases your main hand Damage and Damage per second (0.14 DPS per point of strength, if my references are right). Last word is at 250.3 base DPS and provides 51Str more than HC Mithrios which is 51*1.15*1.1 = 9 weapon DPS. Normal Mitrios is 239.1 weapon DPS and therefore is a clear looser to Last Word from that point of view, while HC Mithrios is at 264.7 weapon DPS and beats Last Word by a short 5.4 weapon DPS. I do not posses that shiny mace yet, so Last Word is my best bet.

    Last Word is not worth using when going for survival. Even NM Mithrios is much better, the avoidance difference is too massive for them to even compare the slightest. And the expertise is such a big thing against Dragons.

    The AM and Imp Lay on Hands spec is way better for the job u applyed which is tanking, not dpsing valks.
    We clearly disagree. Tanking consists in a lot of thing, living, not loosing aggro, making the raid life easier by being on the right spot on the right time AND maximizing your damage output. Both tank can amount to a significant amount of damage on the Valkyrs, up to 5%, and that's not to trash about. It can be the difference between a player being dropped off the edge and a player falling on the edge. Besides, the AM/LoH spec is easily overplayed by merely taunting off the killing melee swing, and again, Aura Mastery is broken and only the initial part of the Soul Reaper can be affected and is already greatly reduced by the usage of correct gear on top of the on-use Sindragosa trinket. Moreover, AM usage doesn't get you past any of the "hidden" resistance caps, so AM usage doesn't guarantee extra damage reduction: Gear + Trinket + Aura = 53%, so 40%, 50% or 60%, while Gear + Trinket + AM = 59%, so 40% 50% 60%. Average reduction is indeed higher but worst-case scenario is identical. And AM is broken anyway, so chances are that it will only increase your own Shadow Resistance, and not impact the raid.

  15. Wrong. Vindication overrides SHORTER duration or WEAKER attack power reduction debuffs.
    Wrong. Vindication uptime has been fixed. It is now well over 95%.
    And on LK pulls, where we used Druid/Paladin as a tanking setup, there is never a single time where Demoralizing Roar drops due to Vindication replacing it: vindication never override Demoralizing Roar: 26 Demoralizing Roar cast for 552.1s uptime means that the average Demoralizing Roar duration was 26 seconds.
    The removal may or may not have been changed but overlapping buffs like those used to cancel out. Even if it doesn't bears and warriors can instantly apply it compared to paladins. There's no reliance on procs there and the uptime is guaranteed to be a realistic 100%, nothing below that. You can safely spend those 2 points elsewhere for a 25 man.

    Last Word is not worth using when going for survival. Even NM Mithrios is much better, the avoidance difference is too massive for them to even compare the slightest. And the expertise is such a big thing against Dragons.
    No, Last Word is very worthwhile. The avoidance on mithrios hc doesn't make up for the improvement in quality of your eh. If you get why divinity is such a good choice for the end-game then you should have no issues understanding why that's also true of Last Word.

    Besides, the AM/LoH spec is easily overplayed by merely taunting off the killing melee swing, and again, Aura Mastery is broken and only the initial part of the Soul Reaper can be affected and is already greatly reduced by the usage of correct gear on top of the on-use Sindragosa trinket. Moreover, AM usage doesn't get you past any of the "hidden" resistance caps, so AM usage doesn't guarantee extra damage reduction: Gear + Trinket + Aura = 53%, so 40%, 50% or 60%, while Gear + Trinket + AM = 59%, so 40% 50% 60%. Average reduction is indeed higher but worst-case scenario is identical. And AM is broken anyway, so chances are that it will only increase your own Shadow Resistance, and not impact the raid.
    Aura Mastery isn't broken. It confers resistances to other players(tried it 10 minutes ago). You can still taunt off of players before lethals AND get two external CDs as an OT. The initial hit of SR is partially resistable, the DoT isn't resistable at all and that is exactly how it's meant to be. There aren't "hidden" caps. The caps have been tested out and the info is publicly available. They are as follows,

    128 guarantees 10% DR
    219 20% DR
    340 30% DR
    510 40% DR
    765 50% DR

    The formula for average resistance is AR = personal resistance/(510 + personal resistance).
    At any rate, I'm fairly certain that going from 130 to 260 (which is done by the use of aura mastery) directly gives you 10% minimum to your DR. The average resist while under the effect of AM will be higher. Worst case scenario is definitely not identical.
    Edited: November 15, 2018 Reason: typos

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