1. Hey guys :) Soo im getting rly close to BIS and I see an expertise problem. The only item giving me expertise are the sanc pants (heroic) which are giving 106 and i puted a 20 expertise gem on my neck the problem is i couldnt reach 26 with the seal on and got to 25 only. Im using the leather bis build only diffrence is that im using the strenght belt (not the PP one) but they both dont give expertise . I saw in the guide it says "Dont forget to put a 20 expertise gem to reach the cap" but it seems it gets you a little below it - sitting at 25 expertise ( with the seal on ).

  2. Put a half expertise gem (10 expertise, 10 of another stat) somewhere in your gear.

  3. http://armory.warmane.com/character/...ecrown/summary
    I just use 20exp + 10exp10hit gems in order to cap it.
    In the end using that Accurate Ametrine wont be any dps lost over Inscribed(10str10crit) or any other Ametrine.
    I personaly value expertise more than strength, if u think u can afford dodged attack from time to time just leave it at 25exp as Selaya said i guess, or simply use 34exp gem if u have JC.

  4. I've done the same thing, Gnimo. I've put such a gem in the yellow socket in my gloves and cloak. Granted, I don't use Signet of Twilight, so the gems cap my hit about perfectly.
    http://armory.warmane.com/character/...ecrown/summary

  5. I see an expertise problem.
    You don't have an expertise problem. I am not reviving the "what is Warmane expertise cap" debate but I can tell you from my experience after going through raid combat logs with thousands of melee hits using only 22 Expertise that I have never ever seen a dodged hit. I am excluding parries since some bosses and bad tanks force you to DPS from the front and no one can effectively cap for parries (supposed to be a 14% chance to parry or 56 Expertise).

    I have nothing but the HC T10 pants with 106 Expertise Rating (12.9 Expertise or 3.23% dodge chance reduction) and the Seal of Vengeance glyph with 10 Expertise (2.5% dodge chance reduction). Theoretically if raid bosses had the true 6.5% chance to dodge from the back then I should see close to 1% dodges on my raid boss white attacks (6.5% - 3.23% -2.5%).

    My theory is that Warmane raid bosses are sill using the level 82 HC Dungeon boss dodge % which only requires an Expertise of 22 to cap. Maybe...but I don't think it's 26.

    So it's up to you to decide now. Some like to gear while strictly adhering to what things should be. Others will gear to min/max based on the current state of the server.

  6. I can tell you from my experience after going through raid combat logs with thousands of melee hits using only 22 Expertise that I have never ever seen a dodged hit.
    Its funny cos i get dodged on 26 expertise on every melee class on both ICC and RS bawses. :D
    But it doesnt matter as said, i prefer it, if u feel lucky u actualy dont need expertise almost at all...
    When it comes to hit its fine beeing a bit overcapped, but if u want u can use Might of Blight in order to down ur hit like Mercy did i guess...

    Now to come to the point of my post...

    After couple of raids, and dummie tests, as it seems Seal of Righteousness was procing from something before thats not working now.
    I dont know if it was a bug or if its now a bug, but its not procing as it used to.
    This results in Seal and Judgment of Command doing more overall Damage than Glyphed Seal of Righteousness and its Judgment.
    This leads to the conclusion that its no longer worth using SoR in most fights as it was before (when we are talking about Best in Slot retri paladin, it might be better to use SoR when u are not BIS, u can test this urself i guess).
    At the moment, its only usefull on fight like Profesor Putricide IF u have it glyphed, cos u move and switch targets constantly and SoC has lower Judgment DMG and bugged proc rate when it comes to Soul Fragments and Mote of Anger (made the report, it will hopefully be fixed soon).

    When it comes to Lich King, u should, again, use a Faster Hitting Wep + Shield to stack SoV asap in 1st phase and in 1st transition on Ragings.
    In 2nd phase u should use the same thing to stack SoV on LK asap. After Valks drop down, u should hit Lich King with melee one more time to get the 15/15sec SoV dot on him and instantly swith to Seal of Command. AoE as hard as u can for the next 10-12 sec and switch back to SoV again and refresh ur dot and keep pew pewing.
    When it comes to 2nd transition u should stack 5/5 SoV fast on 1st Raging and after its Dead switch to Seal of Command and continue untill u reach 3rd phase.
    In 3rd phase use Fast Wep + Shield as said before and ggwp.

    RiP Glyph of Seal of Righteousness.
    I personaly love Glyph of Seal of Command. Part from the fact that there is no usefull 3rd Glyph when it comes to Retri paladin, GoSoC enables me to prio Divine Storm over Judgment.
    Divine Storm hits more than Judgment, Its more important and powerfull when it comes to AoE, and i wont ever go OOM.

  7. https://www.warmane.com/bugtracker/r...#comment-43965 There's a bug with Death's Choice/Verdict that causes the trinket to proc solely from Physical Attacks and Auto Attacks. It actually affects DPS because I noticed it was proccing 10-20 seconds after the internal CD was finished when normally it procs instantly from all the damage (dots - RV, SoV Tick. SoV direct dmg, exorcism, consecration, etc.) going out, but no later than about 5 seconds when the internal CD is finished. http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=47464 http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=47303. The trinket should be working similarly to Darkmoon Card: Greatness (Strength) which procs instantly when it's off CD but would be nice if it didn't proc off doing everything like respeccing, healing, etc. Just posting for awareness and for all Ret Pala's who use it.

  8. When it comes to Lich King, u should, again, use a Faster Hitting Wep + Shield to stack SoV asap in 1st phase and in 1st transition on Ragings.
    While I see how it's feasible that this might be a gain right now, it definitely won't be once partial Seal of Corruption damage is fixed again.

  9. @DarkenedHue
    I saw the report and i wanted to ask whats that all about..?
    Simply reading the text from Seal of Vengeance there is no mention of any partial DMG at all.
    Stacking debuff, deals damage over 15sec, once stacked to 5 it deals aditional wep damage.
    Unleashing the Seals energy, deals damage based on how many stacks u have on the target, damage increased by 10% for each stack.
    I dont know about Seal of Corruption text but shouldnt those two be the same?

    As for the faster stacking of SoV goes, its same **** in the end tbh. U wont break the game or rape the other rets if u do it, nor u will fall behind if u dont.
    It brings some interesting and fun playstile for me, and thats the only reason why i like doin it, nothing else tbh.
    And yes, if there is any kind of partial dmg when it comes to SoV, if its implemented i will test it, see how it goes, and post here again i guess. :D

  10. Fast 1-Hander Seal of Vengeance Stacking

    Starting a fight with a fast 1-hander to quickly gain 5 stacks of Seal of Vengeance (or Corruption if you're a dirty Blood Elf :), is a DPS loss. Someone already stated this on the forums and I can't remember if it was Selaya or Lynea but it was someone who knows the class.

    There's a reason this expansion has been around for 9 years and these "new" DPS tricks were never discovered. That reason is that these are bad ideas and you shouldn't do them.

    Gnimo, I am not picking on you dude, if anything I love the fact that you keep initiating these debates on the Paladin forums. I understand that starting off with a fast weapon means 5 stacks of SoV in 6 seconds instead of 12 but what you are not accounting for is the significant damage you lose by swinging a 1-hander around for 6 seconds and doing crap damage with your Divine Storm and Crusader strikes. I know it's only 6 seconds but unless you just stand there waiting for the stacks you will have to use your abilities.

    The table below is a calculated DPS timeline of the first 12 seconds for someone starting off with a 2-hander vs someone starting off with a 1-hander then switching at 6 seconds.

    • The biggest loss in damage comes from the Divine Storm and Crusader Strike with the fast weapon.

    • Weapon damage is significantly lower and those abilities are 110% and 75% of normalized weapon damage respectively.

    • The attacks with the 1.5 speed weapon would be normalized to the slower speed of 2.4 but damage output is garbage relative to a 2-hander normalized to 3.3.

    • This even takes into account the Warmane bug mentioned by DarkenedHue. Go Vote: https://www.warmane.com/bugtracker/report/37101

    • I excluded crits to simplify the math and all the trinket and ring procs that were just wasted while swinging around a1-hander like an *******.

    • To summarize the table, starting with a fast 1-hander gains approximately 8k damage from extra seal procs and a higher Judgement damage while the 2-hander gets to 5 stacks. But it also loses 11k damage in the first 6 seconds because you were using Wirt's Leg on HC LK :D



    I used the following weapons in my comparison. I don't care if you're using another 1-hander. Weapon damage for a 1-hander is still low.


    I also ran a few 30 second tests on a HC dummy to make sure my math wasn't off. With the 1-hander I would switch around 5-6 seconds as soon as I had 5 stacks of SoV. It is a DPS loss and when the bug is fixed it will be an even bigger loss. It doesn't really matter what shield you use, the best you can hope for is something a lot of Strength to give you more AP and raise your weapon damage.


    Stop switching weapons mid-encounter. If you're looking for more useful stuff to do as a Ret Paladin during LK transition phase here are some ideas:

    • Stun a Shambling Horror at 20%. Your OT and healers will love you for it.
    • Immediately cleanse your OT when he's hit with Soul Shriek. It's hard to tank silenced.
    • In a bind, throw a Hand of Sacrifice on your OT and pop Divine Shield.
    • Time Aura Mastery + Shadow Resist while you're transitioning to the edge to help minimize Pain and Suffering damage.
    • HEAL! In an emergency you can get 50k heals out with a few Holy Lights and you always have Lay on Hands.
    • No Raging Spirit to kill? Keep Replenishment up using a Ghoul or a Shambling Horror.
    • If you see a loose Raging Spirit, you can always be the best tank in the world...for 12 seconds anyway :D
    • Watch Omen and help manage aggro on the Ragings. A well-timed Hand of Salvation or Hand of Protection can save the raid.
    Edited: February 24, 2017 Reason: Corrected DPS timeline to show the 150% Judgement multiplier at 5 SoV stacks.

  11. Originally Posted by Elitist Jerks Tanking Guide
    Athough the tooltip does not mention this, melee hits on a target with less than 5 stacks of the DoT effect will still do holy damage based on weapon damage, in proportion to the number of DoT stacks present. E.g., a hit on a target with a 3-stack of the DoT will do 60% as much holy damage as a hit on a target with a full 5-stack.
    I agree with this but to be more precise, I believe only special melee attacks will do extra holy damage in proportion to the number of DoT stacks. White melee attacks only start doing the extra holy damage once stack size reaches 5.

    So for Crusader Strike, Divine Storm and Judgement, SoV holy damage is a percentage of weapon damage proportional to number of stacks:

    1 Stack 6.6%
    2 Stacks 13.2%
    3 Stacks 19.8%
    4 Stacks 26.4%

    Once 5 stacks of SoV are on the target this applies to both white attacks, Crusader Strike, Divine Storm and Judgement:

    5 Stacks 33%

  12. I agree with this but to be more precise, I believe only special melee attacks will do extra holy damage in proportion to the number of DoT stacks. White melee attacks only start doing the extra holy damage once stack size reaches 5.

    So for Crusader Strike, Divine Storm and Judgement, SoV holy damage is a percentage of weapon damage proportional to number of stacks:

    1 Stack 6.6%
    2 Stacks 13.2%
    3 Stacks 19.8%
    4 Stacks 26.4%

    Once 5 stacks of SoV are on the target this applies to both white attacks, Crusader Strike, Divine Storm and Judgement:

    5 Stacks 33%
    I don't think the partial damage made an exception for auto attacks. Also, I'm about 100% certain Judgement simply didn't proc any seals whatsoever.

    Would be easy enough to confirm browsing logs I suppose.

  13. At the curent state of Warmane, if u equip a [Bone Warden's Splitter] 264itlvl + [Icecrown Glacial Wall] 277itlvl and do:
    Crusader Strike > Shield of Righteousness > Consecration > 5/5 SoV > equip Shadowmourne > Wings > Judgment > DS > CS > ...
    u will actualy gain more DPS over the straight Wings and pew pew without 5/5 on the target.
    U get 10sec of 5/5 SoV on the target + Wings + STS.
    Ur first Judgment and Divine Storm will hit like a truck with all those procs.

    Its not that the "new" ideas are bad, its that ppl didnt have time to test it all on retail and u dont use the right spells in order to do maximise the DPS gain.
    Ofc u r going to lose DPS if u do Divine Storm with the 1.5sec speed wep.
    Altho if SoV partial DMG gets fixed, this might not be a good thing to do, but untill than its better.

    Thanks for the info on Seal of Vengeance partial damage tho, didnt know its not working correctly. U learn things each day... :D

  14. At the curent state of Warmane
    My testing was based on the "current state of Warmane" and the calculations were based on the 3.3 Ret Paladin model that has been around for years. We need to stop making baseless statements like "this is not retail" any time we find out we're wrong about something. We are not retail but we are very close.

    Crusader Strike > Shield of Righteousness > Consecration
    Really dude? Now you're prioritizing Consecration over Judgement to convince yourself that you are right? It's ok to be wrong. Stop trying to theorycraft with your feelings.

    Its not that the "new" ideas are bad, its that ppl didnt have time to test it all on retail and u dont use the right spells in order to do maximise the DPS gain.
    Where do you get this stuff from?! Dude there are 30-40 page threads on Elitist Jerks discussing the Paladin 3.3 RAWR model. People theorycrafted WOTLK to death.

    I still appreciate the fact that you try different stuff outside the box and make us think through and test them out. :)

  15. I don't think the partial damage made an exception for auto attacks. Also, I'm about 100% certain Judgement simply didn't proc any seals whatsoever.

    Would be easy enough to confirm browsing logs I suppose.
    I have seen conflicting information on both of those points. I was about 100% sure that Judgements did not proc SoV but the Elitist Jerks Ret thread lists seal proccing special attacks as CS, DS, and JDG. When I look at my recount logs I see #SoV Procs = #DS + #CS + #Judgements + #Melee - #MeleePre5Stacks.

    I can test it more closely to make it adds up.

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