Dug out an excerpt from a couple months before Cata's pre-patch:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/8...Lana%27thel%22
Looking at the rest of the log, you can see seal of vengeance hits being procced by auto-attacks, crusader strikes, divine storms, and the PP 25 trink.[18:15:31.066] Apko hits Blood-Queen Lana'thel 3918
[18:15:31.140] Apko's Vindication fades from Blood-Queen Lana'thel
[18:15:31.220] Blood-Queen Lana'thel afflicted by Holy Vengeance (3) from Apko
[18:15:31.220] Apko Seal of Vengeance Blood-Queen Lana'thel *2337* (R: 112)
[18:15:31.220] Blood-Queen Lana'thel afflicted by Consecration from Apko
[18:15:31.578] Apko Righteous Vengeance Blood-Queen Lana'thel 1093
[18:15:31.920] Blood-Queen Lana'thel afflicted by Vindication from Apko
[18:15:32.013] Apko Holy Vengeance Blood-Queen Lana'thel 1947 (R: 431)
[18:15:32.170] Apko Consecration Blood-Queen Lana'thel 1287 (R: 127)
[18:15:32.904] Apko's Vindication fades from Blood-Queen Lana'thel
[18:15:32.919] Apko Exorcism Blood-Queen Lana'thel *9648* (R: 1382)
[18:15:33.270] Apko Consecration Blood-Queen Lana'thel 1287 (R: 127)
[18:15:33.516] Blood-Queen Lana'thel afflicted by Vindication from Apko
[18:15:33.590] Apko Righteous Vengeance Blood-Queen Lana'thel 1093
[18:15:33.723] Apko casts Judgement of Wisdom on Blood-Queen Lana'thel
[18:15:34.171] Apko Consecration Blood-Queen Lana'thel 1144 (R: 253)
[18:15:34.354] Blood-Queen Lana'thel's Judgement of Wisdom is refreshed by Apko
[18:15:34.354] Apko Judgement of Vengeance Blood-Queen Lana'thel *19848*
[18:15:34.354] Blood-Queen Lana'thel afflicted by Heart of the Crusader from Apko
[18:15:34.479] Apko crits Blood-Queen Lana'thel *10340*
[18:15:34.775] Blood-Queen Lana'thel afflicted by Holy Vengeance (4) from Apko
[18:15:34.775] Apko Seal of Vengeance Blood-Queen Lana'thel 1901 (R: 187)
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Member
Edited: February 25, 2017
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Wind of Northrend
@Valimus
My friend, let me try and put it this way, cos aparantly its hard to see the forest behind the tree...
Judgment from Seal of Vengeance deals 10% increased DMG per stack of SoV on ur Target.
If u go straight Wings > Judgment, without even doing Crusader Strike + Melee hit on ur target u are bad. Its that simple...
Ur Judgment is hardest hitting spell.
There is not a single spell at ur disposal that will deal 20k+ DMG in ICC.
If u dont do atleast Crusader Strike + 1 melee before u Judgment, u wont have Active procs such as Ashen ring and STS to boost its damage and u wont have a single Vengeance stack aswell.
If u do Judgment without any stacks of SoV on the target u lose atleast 10% of its Damage.
Now, lets see what we get if we do the faster weapon SoV stacking:
3/3 Vengeance talent - 9% Bonus Damage.
10sec left on STS.
5sec left on Ashen ring.
5/5 SoV - 50% Increased Judgment DMG
4-6 stacks of Mote of Anger.
1/5 Libram Strength stack. (if u use the 264 one)
And with all that, Full Duration of Wings with 5/5 SoV (attacks dealing 41-42% aditional damage).
The only downside of this is cos u lose 5 sec on both Ashen and STS proc.
But il rather do that than to not have that extra aditional dmg boosted with Wings.
The point of Crusader Strike > Shield of Righteousness > Consecration (sometimes if u prepot or hero u wont have time to Conse) is to simply PREPARE for the HIGHEST burst posible. Also ur Consecration deals almost same overall DMG if u do it with or without Shadowmourne. U will have both Crusader Strike and Consecration when u need them in ur normal rotation. On top of that, u will basicly most likely try to switch to Shadowmourne at the same sec u do that Consecration so u will basicly almost have same GCD for both spell and wep swap.
The opener:
Crusader Strike > Shield of Righteousness > Consecration > Instantly Equip Shadowmourne as soon as u have 5/5 on the target >
Wings > Judgment > Divine Storm > Crusader Strike > Consecration > Exorcism > Crusader Strike > Judgment > Divine Plea (Holy Wrath) > Divine Storm > Crusader Strike > ... (in case not a single Divine Storm reset from 2/5 T10 happens).
So, instead of going ape mode and instantly Wings > Judgment shenanigans, u will wait 5 sec and prepare for the highest burst posible.
Im sorry if there is nothing like this on Elitist Jerks, that fact wont prove me wrong, or it wont prove this to be a bad thing. It will only prove that they maybe didnt try it out. Lack of time, not getting the idea in the first place, i dont know, i dont care... It took me a year of playing ret for this thing to occur to me and to start using it.
The only guide i tryed to find outside of Warmane Class Section is Feral guide. The main reason was cos i wasnt simply satisfied with the basic information i got from Druid Section when i started playing feral. I didnt find any usefull or more information out there anyway so i started building my own way of doin it. Read all the spells, asked some ppl about how they do it, and connected the dots. I dont know how they did Feral back than but im more than happy when it comes to my DPS and playstile at the moment when it comes to that class...
Everyone focus on gear, talents, gems, explanations how and why u should go for those things. Noone is focusing on rotation which is the most important thing. That is why, part from them not reading a single spell from spellbook and how it works, 90% of Rets on server used Seal of Vengeance on Profesor Putricide, even tho they cant reach 5/5 and unleash Seals full potential at any point in the fight exept phase 3.
U cant find everything in the guide someone makes, everyone will forget 1% of the information almost every time, and u shouldnt, u should try to test stuff and try to find something that will maximise ur DPS urself.
Things change on this server basicly on every restart, perfect example is Seal of Righteousness which used to do more overall DMG than Seal of Command, on both AoE before SoC got fixed, and Single Target DMG before SoR got fixed (multiprocing or procing of things it shouldnt). So im sorry im not following any kind of Retail information guide.
Im not saying im the smartest man alive that invented hot watter, nor do i feel like it, but i atleast do more than 1 failed test (duo to wrong spell usage and using a tank wep) before i say something is bad or something is good. U should try and do the same i guess... :)
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Member
Not only special melee attacks but weapon swings aswell.
From the patch 3.2.0 changes:
Wrath-Logo-Small Patch 3.2.0 (04-Aug-2009):
Only auto-attacks and Hammer of the Righteous can place the debuff on the paladin's current target(s). However, while the seal is active, each melee swing or ability (excluding judgements) that lands on the target will deal a percentage of weapon damage as Holy damage to the target. This damage maxes out at 33% weapon damage with 5 applications of the debuff and scales upward evenly based on how many applications of the debuff are active. This Holy damage deals double-damage critical strikes. In addition, the damage-over-time debuff is now considered a melee attack for the purposes of determining its chance to hit, miss, be dodged or parried.
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Wind of Northrend
Looks like the partial Damage is fixed and implemented alrdy. Great job Warmane. :D
Its prety much the same thing as it was before the partial damage fix, the only thing diferent is that u should now use Shield of Righteousness as a 3rd spell on opener, after Consecration cos it procs SoV partial damage. If u use the 1.5sec wep.
When it comes to switching targets, i think faster wep swap will be the winner again.
3 GCDs needed before 5/5 SoV is stacked on ur target: Shield of Righteousness, Crusader Strike, Judgment, Consecration, Exorcism. Chose 3 out of these 5 i guess.
Target with 5/5 SoV on it:
Judgment with Shadowmourne: 7400dmg crit.
Judgment with One Hander and a Shield: 7100dmg crit.Edited: February 25, 2017
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Dargenslayer
After doing some testing, I can say for SURE 1h + shield start / target swapping is NOT worth it at all. You use 3 GCDS with a 1h + 1 GCD to swap to your 2h because you're in combat so you're basically doing 4 GCDs. On top of that you're losing the damage you get from 4 GCDs with a 2h from Crusader and Divine Storm (Judgement, Exorcism, Consecration barely affected) and the auto attack damage from using the 2h just to stack up Vengeance faster which is utterly useless because the whole point of Seal of Vengeance is it's supposed to be weak in the beginning and then you end up doing top damage because of it's extremely potent sustained DPS. The whole mindset behind popping wings in the beginning is to immediately put it on cooldown and to utilize the damage boost with your trinkets/procs as much as possible with your 2h weapon. Even more so because in any standard raid environment (where all tests should be done) with haste buffs, pre pot, heroism, etc. it just makes starting 1h and shield even more mundane because of the amount of globals you are wasting with a 1h and shield when you could be autoing with a 2h every 1.3 or whatever seconds and doing insane auto hits at the same time while doing good damage with crusader and divine storm since you're using a 2h. If you're going to target swap, just stick to the standard SoV if target will be alive for a while, and SoR if target will die quickly. Also, with the partials fixed it's even more useless to try this out. Not to mention if you're using Shadowmourne instead of a ToGC 25 HC wep like I'm using on Lordaeron, it's even less beneficial to start with a 1h and shield because you lose out on Soul Fragments and having a 3.7 speed weapon with melee haste buff, pre pot, hero, etc. being popped depending on encounter.
The idea was interesting and I tested it out and unfortunately it's complete garbage. You can check values and yada yada all you want and pretend like it's decent, but try it out in a real raid environment with all the correct buffs and with strong guild mates and it's not even worth thinking about tbh.
Another thing to note is that Chaos Bane canceling is only effective on purely single target fights because the damage done by Chaos Bane is spread out among all the targets in range. It's more DPS to keep the Chaos Bane proc on LK for example because your Chaos Bane damage will be going into the LK, ghouls, etc. instead of only the LK. Also, testing things on a dummy may make things seem good in theory, but remember to always go and test in a real raid with buffs n all on different boss fights before you conclude that something is worth doing.Edited: February 26, 2017
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Wind of Northrend
U dont lose a GCD before combat starts.
When LK phases in transitions and when transition is over u have more than 1 GCD to swap that wep without losing that GCD and in p3 when u get ported inside SM u again have more than 1 GCD to do so...
U lose dmg when it comes to Crusader Strike. (1.5k on non crit, 3k on a crit)
U lose minor dmg from doin Consecration with 1h and a Shield. (since its dmg is related to only atk power not wep dmg)
U lose no DMG if u Shield of Rightouesness that deals almost same amount of DMG as Crusader Strike.
U gain atleast 30% DMG on ur Judgment if u do it. (since u have more SoV stacks)
On a dummy u need 3 GCDs to stack 5/5 SoV.
In full raid environment u need 2 GCDs to stack 5/5 SoV.
CS > Conse > SOR or CS > SOR.
U can Switch ur wep as soon as u cast that last Spell and almost fully merge the 2 GCDs in 1.
I dont know how u open with Shadowmourne anyway, but u should atleast do 1 auto into 1 crusader strike before bursting so that also reduces the GCD lost with faster wep...
Its same **** in the end. I personaly prefer the faster stacking when u have no haste buffs or pots prepots.
When it comes to raid, again, same ****.
I dont care whatever u use tbh, just dont call something u cant make work **** or garbage.
It works for me in "real raid environment" and on a dummy, so i dont see the problem...
But il just stop discussing this and any future things when it comes to classes.
There are many skilled players and great guides that are explaining everything there is about the game so aparantly my opinion is not needed at all.
Especialy when it comes to new ideas.
Sorry for trying to help i guess...
Best of Luck. :D
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Dargenslayer
You're not factoring in auto attacks in at all. And you're going to lose a GCD weapon swapping because you will have to weapon swap from your 1h/shield to your 2h after you stack SoV up to 5. Try your numbers again comparing Shadowmourne auto attack damage compared to the damage you gain from using the 1h to stack. Having SoV stack up a couple seconds faster doesn't make up for the loss of damage from Crusader, Divine Storm, and auto attacks. That's simply it.
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Wind of Northrend
Right, i forgot to mention that part aswell... My bad.
[Shadowmourne] 2.97 sec speed (21.09 haste from gear + 3% haste from aura)
[Furious Saronite Beatstick] 1.11 sec speed (22.60 haste from gear + 3% haste from aura)
[Bone Warden's Splitter] 1.18 sec speed (23.71% haste from gear + 3% haste from aura)
[Scourgeborne Waraxe] 1.19 sec speed (21.88% haste from gear + 3% haste from aura)
extra haste is from the item and extra gem.
overall DMG diference btwn those weps is almost non and not important since the point is to stack SoV asap.
5x 1.11 = 5.55
5x 1.18 = 5.9
5x 1.19 = 5.95
2x 2.97 = 5.94
So, 5 auto attacks = 2 auto attacks.
As soon as u hit that 5th auto attack u should switch ur weapon.
After u swith wep ur auto attack timer starts from 0.
After u hit 2nd auto attack with ur SM ur auto attack timer starts from 0.
Again, for the last time, that GCD wont matter. If u do any spell, and swap wep in the same time, GCDs are basicly merged.
After u hit 5th auto attack and get SM u are basicly having the same scenario as if u hit 2 auto attacks with mourne.
Its not about if this is worth or not, its about if u are fast enough to make it work.
On top of that u get perfect Judgment, Divine Storm, Crusader Strike after that opener that will do maximum amount of Damage with 5/5 SoV.
And, again, u can use w/e opener u want, just if u cant make something work dont call it **** or garbage.
If u tryhard with prepot, engi gloves active, hero on the pull, its 100% not worth switching weps cos of that GCD from wep swap now that partial dmg is fixed.
If u are on LK and u pushed p1, its better to stack SoV on ragings with faster wep. Or if u are on BPC and u have to run from Valanar to Keleseth.
I never said use this always and that its best in every situation!
I simply made it an option in some fights.
If u think its bad, dont use it i guess, for those who find a way to use it, glad i could help.
With this i think i can rest my case... Good luck and have fun. :)
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Dargenslayer
Didn't mean to come off as rude. Was just trying to say it was an interesting idea, but not worth in most situations. I could think of few situations where it could possibly work out, but for the most part it's just not ideal. It's nice to think outside of the box and theory craft to make things more interesting, but sometimes you overlook the bigger picture.
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Member
Is it better to use lady 25hc neck and Whispering 10hc over tiny HC and penumbra for ret paladins? Since wfs will give you 3% + crit and you wont lose any hit beacuse you will use lady 25hc neck? And also you will have more attack power for burst dmg
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Field Medic Moderator
Generally no. It can vary depending on what your gear and stats are, though. When in doubt, use RAWR.
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Member
I have BIS gear with Winding Sheet and Coldwraith Links insted of agility ones. And with wfs i have 51% crit and 8% hit, but personaly i dont like tiny since its doing low dmg.
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Dargenslayer
The DPS differences between Winding Sheet/Coldwraith Links and Shadowvault Slayer's Cloak/Astrylian's Sutured Cinch isn't significant, but the agility ones are better if you're looking to maximize your damage. Tiny Abom is also far superior to WFS because not only does it give hit rating so you don't have to get it from other pieces of gear, but it's proc also accounts for substantial amount of single target damage in addition to the fact that it empowers your Seal of Vengeance.
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Member
Retri pala with agility or full strenght?!
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Dargenslayer
Full strength gear is lower DPS than gear that contains agility gear.
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