WotLK [Guide] Retribution PvE 3.3.5a

[Mercy]

@ 1) Depends on how much you go over-cap. If you don't over-shoot it by much, go for it.
@ 2) Glorenzelg is actually the better pick for competitive PvP. If you're not doing top-end PvP, then it doesn't much matter which weapon you use. Oathbinder will have stronger damage, but Glorenzelg has stats that help you survive more.
@ 3) For PvE, the agility ring is slightly better. 20-25 dps difference, iirc. You won't notice the difference though. If you PvP, consider keeping the strength ring for more AP.
@ 4) Agility socket bonuses aren't worth it.
@ 5) Death's Choice is better for PvE and casual PvP. I recommend Whispering Fanged Skull for competitive PvP or if you off-heal a ton as Ret (the crit helps get Art of War procs, and helps your heals crit more often). WFS is better than DBW, Herkuml, and any trinkets from any content below ICC with the exception of Death's Choice/Verdict.
@ 6) Both builds make great use of Shadowmourne. You're currently using Oathbinder, so there would be no issues. Someone that uses Glorenzelg would need to change their build and/or glyphs to make up for the lost expertise though. I currently prefer a full strength set, with the exception of Umbrage wrists, due to not needing hit on that slot and everything else is just so much lower dps value.

[t0m1t0]

@ 1) Depends on how much you go over-cap. If you don't over-shoot it by much, go for it.
@ 2) Glorenzelg is actually the better pick for competitive PvP. If you're not doing top-end PvP, then it doesn't much matter which weapon you use. Oathbinder will have stronger damage, but Glorenzelg has stats that help you survive more.
@ 3) For PvE, the agility ring is slightly better. 20-25 dps difference, iirc. You won't notice the difference though. If you PvP, consider keeping the strength ring for more AP.
@ 4) Agility socket bonuses aren't worth it.
@ 5) Death's Choice is better for PvE and casual PvP. I recommend Whispering Fanged Skull for competitive PvP or if you off-heal a ton as Ret (the crit helps get Art of War procs, and helps your heals crit more often). WFS is better than DBW, Herkuml, and any trinkets from any content below ICC with the exception of Death's Choice/Verdict.
@ 6) Both builds make great use of Shadowmourne. You're currently using Oathbinder, so there would be no issues. Someone that uses Glorenzelg would need to change their build and/or glyphs to make up for the lost expertise though. I currently prefer a full strength set, with the exception of Umbrage wrists, due to not needing hit on that slot and everything else is just so much lower dps value.

Just like Mercy said. I am hard PVE player and I am playing with SM and full STR build. My observations are that full str build (only ashen band of vengeance, but I always forget to change it) outscales agility build with the proper raid buff. I am still trying to get WFS HC to see if this will boost my dps. At the moment with high end gear STS HC outscales DC/DV HC.

With the WFS your crit will be boosted like 3-4% and will compensate your agility gear and still you will have your str gear on(this is what me and my guild mates were discussing, because we like str paladins).

[Princessochka]

@ 1) Depends on how much you go over-cap. If you don't over-shoot it by much, go for it.
@ 4) Agility socket bonuses aren't worth it.

Expertise cap is 214=6.5%=26; i have 198 without gems, so what should i go for ("208, +10exp gem, missing 0.16% to cap" or "218, +20exp gem, lil overcap")?

And what about str+4 yellow sockets?

[t0m1t0]

Expertise cap is 214=6.5%=26; i have 198 without gems, so what should i go for ("208, +10exp gem, missing 0.16% to cap" or "218, +20exp gem, lil overcap")?

And what about str+4 yellow sockets?

Just go only red 20 str gems + Nightmare tear 10 all stats on something to activate your meta gem. The best meta gem is 21 agiliy + 3% increased critical.
For the expertise cap you can go with the seal of corruption/vengeance glyph for the pve. Some people say that molten cap is 21-22 (I haven't tested it, I stick with 26+). Anyway the glyphs of the ret pally sucks.

[Mercy]

Expertise cap is 214=6.5%=26; i have 198 without gems, so what should i go for ("208, +10exp gem, missing 0.16% to cap" or "218, +20exp gem, lil overcap")?

And what about str+4 yellow sockets?

Well, I'd ask if you have any expertise racials, but I guess that doesn't matter since you're using Oathbinder. Going 4 expertise rating over the cap is fine.
As for yellow sockets with +4str, get them for sure if it's on an item that has 2+ sockets and only one of them is yellow. If the item has 2 yellow sockets or a blue socket on it, it's a no-go. If the item only has the one yellow socket, it's... eh. Agility build, I'd probably go pure strength gem, and then use str/crit gem for the strength build.

Just go only red 20 str gems + Nightmare tear 10 all stats on something to activate your meta gem. The best meta gem is 21 agiliy + 3% increased critical.

I highly recommend using the Nightmare Tear on an item that has red+blue sockets and a decent socket bonus. In BiS gear, that's usually the chest or legs. Some non-set items can have some weird socket bonuses though.

[Gnimo]

Actualy paladins get more crit from agility than both warriors and death knights, so going for 4 agility items as ret is a must from how i see it (Back, Wrist, both Rings), since both dks and warrs have atleast 2-4 agility items, especialy since they give more stats than the strength items, and there is no better wrist and ring from RS 25m hc stat wise.

As far as for gemming goes, DKs and Warrs should gem 20strength or 20armorpenetration in every gem socket in agility items, depending on what u are missing and what spec are u playing, BUT as ret u should go for 10str10haste gems in all yellow sockets (both agility and strength items), 20strength in all red and blue sockets, Nightmare tear in any item that has Red + Blue gem and that gives the most amount of strength, or in helm if its Meta + Blue gem (its on chest in blue socket in bis gear).

When it comes to Oath vs Gloren > Oath with T10 legs and Fester Gloves, Gloren with T10 gloves and VDW Legs. Expertise cap is, curently on Warmane Icecrown realm, exactly on 22 (5.50% reduced chance to be dodged or parried) aka 106 raiting with Glyph of Seal of Vengance. Both builds will cap expertise alone.
As far as for trinket goes u should go for Tiny Abomination in a Jar as ur BIS BIS trinket. 2nd trinket should be STS > DV > WFS. U need atleast 30% armor penetration in bis gear since u have a lot of phisical dmging attacks.

As far as talents goes id suggest going this build:
http://wotlk.openwow.com/talent#sVIzZVZVfbxbIuhdIfsu
Aura Mastery is a MUST.
Since Seal of Command does **** dmg now and as a ret paladin u are able to help out a lot in sertain situations when it comes to heal and support, extra healing on both Flash and Holy light would be better than any other talent. Going 3/5 Divine Intelect is 200-400 total mana lost when compared to 5/5.

Glyphs:
of Judgment
of Seal of Vengance
of Seal of Righteousness
Seal of Righteousness is actualy OP on fights where u have to switch targets a lot. PP for example, Lich king Phase 2, Marrow if u want to top Spike DMG, and so on... With SoR u should prio using Divine Storm and Judgment a lot. 2 reasons. Every target u hit with DS gets hit by SoR. Judgment of Righteousness deals **** ton of dmg. With this and some lucky DS resets u will actualy do more DPS than with Seal of Command.

Tip: Get a Fast Weapon such as [Scourgeborne Waraxe] (1.5 atk speed) and a shield such as [Icecrown Glacial Wall] or any weapon with low atk speed or shield (prefer ones with more block value increase) in order to stack SoV faster on start of the fights. Its a small dps increase and fun way to play a ret if u ask me. Try going engineering as proffesion and get that haste gloves enchant on use. With this setup u can use Crusader Strike, Shield of Righteousness, Concetration, and have 5/5 SoV on ur target, Equip ur 2handed wep, pop Wings, Judgment and go ham! This is usefull aswell, for example, in p3 on LK when u get ported out of Frostmourne. While inside u can equip wep + shield so u dont have to deal with that global CD. After u get out, Engi gloves > CS > ShieldOR > Conce > equip ur 2hw > pew pew. Its not a huge dps increase but its fun. Easy to **** up so care and practice. :D

[Mercy]

I don't agree entirely with everything you've said, Gnimo. However, you did make me look at the guide again and realize I should make some revisions. Some of those things are things that you've mentioned, and I will include as much in the guide as is appropriate. Thank you for the contribution.

Edit: Despite me not agreeing with you entirely, I do like to include alternative view-points in the guide. Especially when they are valid ones.

Edit2: http://forum.warmane.com/showthread....=1#post2742169
On this post, you can see the changes and additions that were made today.

[Dagetas35]

So alongside my dc greatness what trinket should I take from vote points first?

[Mercy]

If you need hit, get the Emblem of Triumph trinket. If not, you can spend your points on a Dark Matter.

[Dagetas35]

Well I rather take sts, taiaj or death's choice (all non hc) just wondering which one of these should be my first choice

[Thydus]

If your planning only pve grab STS or Tiny, if you want to have a decent trinket for both pve/pvp go with Death's Choice.

[Bastardbottle]

@Gnimo92ud

I d like to ask since you mention only 4 agility items, what about PP belt? And as Oathbinder user, why does str+haste gems coming to point when we wield sm only? I think faction doesnt matter since in the end we will be hit capped or overcap so %1 hit from draenai means nothing but some BiS lists are referring GSB25 wrist as BiS for Horde players which has more hit. Can you explain those, thanks in advance.

[Gnimo]

Npz, ur welcome. :D
"When used with attacks or abilities that strike a single target."
This is why SoC is not proccing from DS, its not that its bugged, its finaly fixed. That part atleast tho, idk about the dmg...
If u do like playing with SoC u should maximise usage of Crusader Strike since when u do it, u do hard aoe dmg aswell.
There is a trinket prio list in the guide, u should follow it (id only switch the prio of STS normal and DC normal, STS > DC, when it comes to PvE bis list, since u need 30% arp atleast).

[Gnimo]

@Bastardbottle
Im not sure about that. I ussualy go with logic if item A has more stats than item B, go for item A. :D

Lets say [Coldwraith Links] is item A and [Astrylian's Sutured Cinch] is item B. And that u are wielding a Shadowmourne.
Main stat: Links has 139 strength, Cinch has 120 agility
Secondary stat: Links has 78 arp, Cinch has 74 arp
Crit: Links has 85 crit, Cinch has 90 crit

I didnt count in the attack power part cos with these items u trade Attack power for more Crit or the other way arround. Its just the matter of where can u get that extra crit for least amount of attack power lost.

Id go for Links here, but its 1 item only so it wont make huge diference. U can play with PP belt and Strength ashen ring, or just **** it all and go with 5 agility items, i used to do that, it wont matter that much, its just the looks that change mainly. :D
The reason for going more atk power is better, in theory, cos with Back, Wrist and 2 Rings on agility alone u can reach arround 60% crit raidbuffed (80% for Judgment) which is enough. U cant reach soft crit cap so going more crit should be a dps lost. But again, its only 1 item, just go what u like more. :D

As far as for bis lists goes i disagree on couple of items from the guide. If u ask me all the BIS items are same for any race and faction. The only diference in itemization is Oathbringer (Shadowmourne) VS Glorenzelg build.
U need 8% hit as a ret, i never missed anything exept exorcism with that much hit. TaJ (85) + AA (81) + Ashen ring (59) + Signet (57) is enough hit (282).

The BIS list i use for ret:
[Sanctified Lightsworn Helmet]
[Penumbra Pendant]
[Sanctified Lightsworn Shoulderplates]
[Shadowvault Slayer's Cloak]
[Sanctified Lightsworn Battleplate]
[Umbrage Armbands]
[Fleshrending Gauntlets]
[Coldwraith Links]
[Sanctified Lightsworn Legplates]
[Apocalypse's Advance]
[Ashen Band of Endless Vengeance]
[Signet of Twilight]
[Tiny Abomination in a Jar]
[Sharpened Twilight Scale]
[Shadowmourne]
U can use PP belt in this list instead of Links.
If u dont have Shadowmourne go for Oath and use Links, PP belt + Oath is way too much Strength lost.

[Mercy]

Well I rather take sts, taiaj or death's choice (all non hc) just wondering which one of these should be my first choice

If you can buy them now, go for it. But you won't be able to after today.